House framing in Revit / Chief Architect

[mnisbett]

I have been trying to find a way in Revit to do easy framing plans for houses. I have not been successful in finding easy ways. Am I missing something? I've seen posts on this subject before and it looks as though people are doing framing plans. But is it as easy as Chief Architect? I am not a user of CA, but I have a colleague who is. He showed me how easy it was to do framing in CA and I was blown away. It does a very nice job , considering how cheap it is in comparison to Revit. So I ask again, am I missing something? I have found zero tutorials on the subject and limited mention in books and pdf files. This is something I'd like to see at AU.

[Dean Camlin]

This has been on the wish list for quite a while. I haven't tried this, but you might be able to generate framing plans using repeating details. But it would require a bit of revising.

[Kroke]

Yeah we have a guy that comes into the plan center here all the time that swears by Chief. It does auto framing for you, but I have to sit and wonder...what for? Just so you can have a perspective of what the framing would look like or is there a better purpose?

I admit, Chief has some attractive features to it, but the floor plan annotation/dimensioning look horrid. I helped him do a prelim on his last Chief project, so my name is also on his bid set of plans on the rack. They look so bad I'm embarassed to have my name on them.

[mlgatzke]

I've never understood the interest in this "feature" (misleading of a term in this case as it may be).

I've discussed this "feature" with CA and users of another application called SoftPlan. My question is: How can you rely on framing assigned by a software application. There are many different methods/techniques in residential and commercial framing. The stud spacing could start at EITHER end of a wall depending on which end the framer wishes to start the sheathing or gyp.bd. Another variable is corner framing. There are about 4 different ways, that I can think of right offhand, to frame an exterior corner. Considering these variables and the changes that would be introduced throughout a project because of only one of these differences, how can you rely on a software generated layout? The answer I typically get is, "Oh, but the framing shown is not to be taken literally . . . it's only to show how it CAN look." My answer to that is, "If you are not intending your framing layout (provided by your software) to be taken literally, why provide it at all. Do you think you are going to be showing your framer something they don't already know how to do better than the software? Remember, these are Contract Documents and your liability is on the line when you issue each and every set."

Granted, a framing layout would be "cool" image to look at. However, it's rarely correct and NEVER to be trusted. Why spend the time to develop something that isn't going to improve the finished product and isn't going to inform the contractor of any worthy information? Because it simply "looks cool"?

[SkiSouth]

Remember, these are Contract Documents and your liability is on the line when you issue each and every set."

Very good point. I can here the lawyer's argument now. If you didn't intend the framing to look exactly this way, why should my client (the esteemed contractor) expect you to think this elevation was to look EXACTLY as drawn?

[Lashers]

MG - Agreed, the framer is the specialist and is paid to be responsible for the design, manufacturer and assembly of the frame - In that situation why would anyone want to "play" at framing design and take over the liability!

I output a 3D dwg file and they take it from there (my steel framer), they then send the layout for my comment, job done! Illustrating the framework (on our side of the show) is titilation for the client - I certainly can't see any other purpose. You are better off finishing the details early and having a long weekend!

[JTF]

I agree that in most cases framing plans or diagrams are unnecessary.

But in some cases to be able to show the framing intent as you thought it should be framed is very useful.

In such cases framing can be done as in place families very quickly.

I have attached a job of dormer additions with framing as I would like to see.

So yes, if you know how to frame you can easily produce framing models starting with the sill plate as all framers do.

[aaronrumple]

I've got a 234 bed dormitory under construction. the whole project is panelized. The shops were just done in AutoCAD (actually r14.) but each stud was laid out prior to fabrication. We also have 6 apartment building and 80 townhomes that we might panelize. We're doing this design build. If we could do the faming plans up front, then it would give us tighter bids and cut the lead time for the panels.

[Joef]

So yes, if you know how to frame you can easily produce framing models starting with the sill plate as all framers do.
"Easily" here is the operative word. If you could explain how you produced this framing plan and approximately how long it took that would be a big help to this discussion. For instance, how did you get the ends of your roof rafters to to trim flush to the ridge beam and hip rafters? I can draw a roof framing plan quickly, but it looks a mess because none of the framing elements trim to one another.

Joe

[cadkiller]

JTF;

Those are some awesome framing details.

I think this feature would be very helpful for residential projects. The thing is who is the one designing them, the Architect, the Engineer or the sub contractor? In most residential wood framing jobs isn't the Architect the one that can and should provide this information. Isn't that why Revit structures is concentrating on steel and concrete and not wood framing. What about a wood framed stair case? Do you leave the engineering up to the carpenter to figure out how to frame it? I know with steel stairs they mostly leave it up to the sub to provide the engineering work. Do they do the same for wood?

[Brian Myers]

While I understand that having the computer "design" the exact framing of your structure might not be useful for the guys in the field and will create liability issues for yourself, I'm not sure how this could ultimately be avoided.

The term BIM is often misused in my book since I really believe in what it stands for, "Building Information Modeling". How can you have accurate information or modeling if the program doesn't figure out the structure? Granted when generating a materials list you try to get as close as possible and likely (if you are the contractor) figure in a slight "fudge factor" for occurrences in the field. But how does this work from a computer generated model that doesn't actually know how things are to be framed and constructed? It can't. (At least not as accurately as it could be).

Ultimately the structural elements (I believe) will need to be known as the different BIM program's evolve to design the different engineering models (structural, energy efficiency, material warranty data, cost estimation, etc.) a BIM environment can ultimately produce. Obviously, Chief Architect isn't there yet either and right now the "framing" it generates isn't going to be exact either. (In other words, it doesn't do anyone much good). But the potential for good in the virtual framing design is obvious and the data contained within it is essential if the true aspects of a BIM environment will ever be fully realized.

[Brian Myers]

JTF;

Those are some awesome framing details.

I think this feature would be very helpful for residential projects. The thing is who is the one designing them, the Architect, the Engineer or the sub contractor? In most residential wood framing jobs isn't the Architect the one that can and should provide this information. Isn't that why Revit structures is concentrating on steel and concrete and not wood framing. What about a wood framed stair case? Do you leave the engineering up to the carpenter to figure out how to frame it? I know with steel stairs they mostly leave it up to the sub to provide the engineering work. Do they do the same for wood?

In residential design the designer does provide the basic information, but it's rare when every stud is shown in the plans. Now I have found this may differ in different parts of the US, but in general simply noting what's going on (2x6 Studs at 16" O.C.) with a section or two and a few generic details is usually enough to get it built unless a real structural condition needs to be detailed. Stairs will have a section showing how everything goes together, but they are rarely "engineered" unless there is something special about the staircase as a wood stair is pretty much a wood stair. But I suppose the point is "would a program like this simplify the "design" (aka drawing) of the stair section? Yes. But it's something that's easy to do in Revit and most BIM programs anyway.

Granted, in a BIM environment "generic details" shouldn't exist! Sooo.. this leads once again to the point, how much BIM can be practically used in the field? Should we go to the level of specifying every stud and where it should be constructed? How does this effect our professional liability and the value added services BIM can provide? In a complete BIM world it seems that these are factors we'll need to learn to address.

[aaronrumple]

In residential design the designer does provide the basic information, but it's rare when every stud is shown in the plans.
I think you'll find it much more common than you think. Sure in a traditional owner/architect/contra tor the architect doesn't want that responsibility. However, the traditional roles are becoming the archaic mode of building. The big design/build developers engineer every stick of wood in the house to squeeze out ever dollar. It seems from the number of request for this functionality that there are quite a few out there doing framing plans. Even in a traditional practice, it would be very helpful if I could share the Revit model with the framer so he could then use framing layout tools to coordinate with the design.

[Lashers]

In my estimation, it is a waste of time for the architect to produce a frame layout (for me this does not include finer details such as dormers) when the framing contractor will do the one that is built.

Architect/designer should establish the parameters as normal in a detail, and the framer use this info to engineer the required frame - I find this to be a collaborative process, the framer is like a specialist technical support - if I did framing every day, I have no doubt that I would have someone with the necessary skills in the office.

I have a thing about duplicating processes, as I believe that it encourages errors . . . would they do this in the car industry??

[mnisbett]

This is a great discussion going on here guys, but.... Can someone explain how these framing plans in revit are being generated? It looks to me like its a great effort with a lot of time involved. Sometimes its just nice to impress and wow people with nice 3d framing plans, we all know that the builders are probably going to build and frame the way they know how to anyway....in most cases....in my experiences. So my goal is to make revit produce these pretty framing plans. Will the new structural package do it any better.

[mlgatzke]

. . . Sometimes its just nice to impress and wow people with nice 3d framing plans, we all know that the builders are probably going to build and frame the way they know how to anyway....in most cases....in my experiences. So my goal is to make revit produce these pretty framing plans.But, first (as I see it) we have to understand WHO are the "pretty framing plans" created for? This will determine A) if they are even necessary and B) how accurate they have to be. I believe that question "A" is the most important of the two. If they're just to "impress and wow people", then use a drawing that impresses the effect of the finished product, not something that will be hidden in the end.

IMHO, there's too much "can it?" than "should it?". Would we have taken the time to draw a perspective framing layout that wasn't reliable when we drew by hand? If not, then why now? If it wouldn't create a better project before, would it now?

Sorry for the critique. I've just had these discussions several times before and cannot understand the importance for the capability other than simply "it looks cool."

[Merlin]

The idea of 3D framing elements in a model would complete the picture from my point of view. Revit is a 3D building modeler; one only has to drag a section plane (or create a new section/detail) and "presto" all is revealed at that location. Without the framing being present, of course, we have to re draw any framing elements not modelled....and that is where I feel it does not stay true to it's philosophy.....draw it/model it once!

As to who needs it,...
1.) One of Revit's powers lies in its flexibility to adapt to the user's needs. If framing is in the model, very little has to be amended if a new section/detail is created. I have not seen many examples of where the entire framing was needed to be seen exposed for elevations or 3D views HOWEVER, we once showed a builder our intent of the framing on-screen and both parties gained some clarity on what was happening.

2.) Also, as a design tool, it is important to see implications of details. If framing is placed in a certain arrangement by us, we can see it's implications elsewhere in the building. (are wall plates at this point going to be suitable for beams coming from the other side?)

3.) A major point....framing is not always encased in cladding. Here in Australia, particularly the sub-tropic areas, we are seeing more lightly-clad buildings with exposed framing....it becomes an aesthetic feature in some contemporary styles here.

John Mc

[blads]

Prior to today, I always thought it would be a "cool" thing to have but not strictly necessary.

However, this afternoon, I've now had a request (?) (more like a demand, really) from a Council, asking for a 3d model of framing details / layout. On speaking to them, asking why I need to provide it in 3d when they have ample 2d plans and details. Their response "well, it will give us a clearer perspective on your proposal and we know you do 3d work so it should be a simple matter".

As more and more Councils/building authorities/clients become more Revit-aware of its capabilities (real or otherwise), designers will have to provide the necessary information in whatever required to achieve building approvals.

[ita]

On those occasions where I have deemed it desirable to produce framed timber wall and roof framing layouts, I used that amazingly adaptive curtain wall tool and glazed roofing tool. Draw the (curtain) wall as the basis of the framed wall (length, height, width etc) - insert studs, plates, noggins etc as timber sections (extending or trimming) on the mullion section, remove infill material - usually glass (use a void if you want to replace it)) and hey presto a timber stud wall.

Studs and noggins inserted automatically, layed out from centre or ends, spaced evenly correct centres etc. Similarly using a glazed roof for timber roof framing if required.

Just a suggestion - rather than waiting for the factory people to get around to a framing tool!

BTW Blads,it has nother to do nothing to do with the shire what software you are using! The framing only needs to comply with the OZ framing codes and the BCA!! None of their business! It seems everyone else now seems to want to disctate the terms of what we are doing. If they would only look after their end of the process and get planning apps out in reasonable time; construction licences issed that actually relate to the documents rather than imposing universal conditions that often have little or no relevance to the project - or are already specified in the documents, then life would be a little easier.

[Lashers]

. . . . However, this afternoon, I've now had a request (?) (more like a demand, really) from a Council, asking for a 3d model of framing details / layout. On speaking to them, asking why I need to provide it in 3d when they have ample 2d plans and details. Their response "well, it will give us a clearer perspective on your proposal and we know you do 3d work so it should be a simple matter". . . .My "steel framing" contractor's software does this automatically . . Normally I would just include their full output to the Building Control Dept. . ..

[Mike Hardy-Brown]

Hi mnisbett

I have a few simple trusses which may be helpful.
They have been simplified by using the ref line instead of ref planes and tan formulae etc.
Easy to insert easy to use...
I also use the sloped glazing function and replace my panels with an empty panel, my beams are mullions with a timber material.

Later

Mike

[blads]

On those occasions where I have deemed it desirable to produce framed timber wall and roof framing layouts, I used that amazingly adaptive curtain wall tool and glazed roofing tool. Draw the (curtain) wall as the basis of the framed wall (length, height, width etc) - insert studs, plates, noggins etc as timber sections (extending or trimming) on the mullion section, remove infill material - usually glass (use a void if you want to replace it)) and hey presto a timber stud wall.

Studs and noggins inserted automatically, layed out from centre or ends, spaced evenly correct centres etc. Similarly using a glazed roof for timber roof framing if required.

Just a suggestion - rather than waiting for the factory people to get around to a framing tool!

BTW Blads,it has nother to do nothing to do with the shire what software you are using! The framing only needs to comply with the OZ framing codes and the BCA!! None of their business! It seems everyone else now seems to want to disctate the terms of what we are doing. If they would only look after their end of the process and get planning apps out in reasonable time; construction licences issed that actually relate to the documents rather than imposing universal conditions that often have little or no relevance to the project - or are already specified in the documents, then life would be a little easier.
Great tip Ita - in my case its a floor & mezzanine floor they gotten in a tiz about...

With regards to Shires/Council - I couldn't agree more but have discussed it with client & he's relucantant to make waves with before getting approval...so for the time being they'll be getting a floor framing plan.

FTW I used a structural beam system, it was done in a few mins... they'll get next day or so (I dont wont them to think it was too easy...) :)

[blads]

[QUOTE=KingBlads]. . . . However, this afternoon, I've now had a request (?) (more like a demand, really) from a Council, asking for a 3d model of framing details / layout. On speaking to them, asking why I need to provide it in 3d when they have ample 2d plans and details. Their response "well, it will give us a clearer perspective on your proposal and we know you do 3d work so it should be a simple matter". . . .QUOTE]
My "steel framing" contractor's software does this automatically . . Normally I would just include their full output to the Building Control Dept. . ..
Had it been steel framing... I would've done likewise...but I'm usually a timber framing guy (more sustainable, lower emodied energy costs, etc) no matter...

[DoTheBIM]

Sorry for the critique. I've just had these discussions several times before and cannot understand the importance for the capability other than simply "it looks cool."
In the industry that I'm in... it is necceassary to show these types of things as we build wall panels in a factory and ship loose lumber/sheathing/fasteners/hangers/etc. for floors, ceilings, and roofs as necassary... so we need quantities, whether it be manual or done by the computer.

Just like has always been done in the past, people will find ways around the missing "features/functionality" (or as I see it... lack of knowing what you need before hand and/or finding it ). Whether it be customization when available or working with an additional software package and going back to the coordination issues that Revit resolved a lot of.

[aaronrumple]

I have a thing about duplicating processes, as I believe that it encourages errors . . . would they do this in the car industry??
In the car industry they can pass a model to a supplier. The supplier can generate a model of the required part and pass it back to the manufacture to integrate into the design for verification of fit and clearances.

My point being - we really can't do that in Revit, because my panel supplier doesn't have the right tools in Revit to do layout effectively.

So we are duplicating processes at almost every step of a project. I export a dumb DWG. They use that as a background and send me back a bunch of 2D drawings. Now I have to go through and use a red pen to make sure there are no conflicts. We've got a long way to go before we catch up with manufacturing.

[PeterJ]

...I export a dumb DWG. They use that as a background and send me back a bunch of 2D drawings. Now I have to go through and use a red pen to make sure there are no conflicts. We've got a long way to go before we catch up with manufacturing.
On my curent project it is a condition of engagement that suppliers work in 3D right alongside the architects and the engineers. It does weed out some smaller players, and hence adds some cost, but means that we can do pretty accurate clash detection right the way through, even with their shop drawings.

I have piles, pile caps, steel base plates, stairs, ceilings, curtain walling, service pipes all modelled in 3D. It is hard work on the processing hardware but on a complex project it does seem to be helping us get it right first time.

We are not yet truly round-tripping as suppliers output tends to be in the form of paper copy but I get their 3D files too and can run clash detection in Navis. We recently found that the tines of the cast in Halfen channels we were using for suspended services were interfering with the bottom mat of the RC slabs, we have elected to omit the cast ins because we wanted to use a roll-out reinforcement system. There's a big saving, though it gives us costs elsewhere with post-fixing. That's a pretty fine level of detail to be modelling (in fact we only had the body of the channels modelled not the tines, these were drafted in 2D but it got us close enough) becasue we could run a tolerance check in Navis. I think we can get close to manufacturing but we can't afford to prototype everything right now.

[Merlin]

On those occasions where I have deemed it desirable to produce framed timber wall and roof framing layouts, I used that amazingly adaptive curtain wall tool and glazed roofing tool. Draw the (curtain) wall as the basis of the framed wall (length, height, width etc) - insert studs, plates, noggins etc as timber sections (extending or trimming) on the mullion section, remove infill material - usually glass (use a void if you want to replace it)) and hey presto a timber stud wall.

Studs and noggins inserted automatically, layed out from centre or ends, spaced evenly correct centres etc. Similarly using a glazed roof for timber roof framing if required.
.



NIce one!....I like that!




...................

BTW Blads,it has nother to do nothing to do with the shire what software you are using! The framing only needs to comply with the OZ framing codes and the BCA!! None of their business! It seems everyone else now seems to want to disctate the terms of what we are doing. If they would only look after their end of the process and get planning apps out in reasonable time; construction licences issed that actually relate to the documents rather than imposing universal conditions that often have little or no relevance to the project - or are already specified in the documents, then life would be a little easier.


Mmmmm!!!....It seems that those we work with want more and more for less and less.....This I think is an example of some people either being ignorant of how to read documentation or being too lazy to do it.

[Merlin]

This can only become more desirable to the point of almost being an essential tool (IF ONLY BY CHOICE OF THE USER!)

I was at a seminar earlier in the year about 3D modelling and construction; it raised some interesting points/facts. e.g Gehry's Guggenheim Museum....a 3D model given to the fabricators which they used directly for a CADCAM fabrication of the exterior panels. ..(so why limit it to just panels?!)...and no construction documents on-site!...everything had a barcode and was read, located on computer and then put in place...This fellow (and I apologise that I can't remember his name offhand) also said that a sub-committee in the US was advising that a 3D model become a part of Documentation in 3 years time

John Mc

[Lashers]

Had it been steel framing... I would've done likewise...but I'm usually a timber framing guy (more sustainable, lower emodied energy costs, etc) no matter...
Fair cop then! I would like to have a sustainability discussion in another place at some point. I am still debating between the two, but my information is more anecdotal than I would like.

[Lashers]

In the car industry they can pass a model to a supplier. The supplier can generate a model of the required part and pass it back to the manufacture to integrate into the design for verification of fit and clearances.

My point being - we really can't do that in Revit, because my panel supplier doesn't have the right tools in Revit to do layout effectively.
. . . ..
In my case, the company I use take my 3D output and send back 3D framing along with the 2D's of each panel - that way I can make sure the elemental construction works for me, and also have a 3D to "reduce" clashes. Its no where near perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

[James.Lupton]

We have recently produced a very detailed model of a block of flats which are constructed in timber framing from modular units which are similar but with certain difference occurring at different positions in the building.

The way we carried this out was to create very simple families of the basic panels in each module.

These panels were assembled into groups (typically 1 group per flat) which were then copied to all locations in the building where this group applied.

We then updated the families with very detailed framed panels which also contained details of sheathing and plasterboard finishes etc.

When we reloaded the families into the model, hey presto, we got a very detailed framing arrangement for the entire building.

We also got some very useful schedules for material summaries and produced framing drawings quickly from the information available in the model.

The whole process worked very well and certainly allowed us to show the high quality output which can be obtained from the model both in terms of appearance and information.

For modular projects like this we would like to be able to produce component based 2D parametric views which can be used in the model to summarize the requirements for each panel type.

[blads]

Fair cop then! I would like to have a sustainability discussion in another place at some point. I am still debating between the two, but my information is more anecdotal than I would like.
I'd like that as well... perhaps one day when either we both at AU, or I'm in the UK or your in Oz...

[cadlivin]

I have read the earlier posts. I want to know if Revit was designed for more than a 3D modeling program for commercial projects. I have done a quick tutorial on Revit and am trying to see how to make Revit more for residential. I see that the families are like blocks for Autocad. I have used Autocad for awhile and just started on Revit. Is there something that I might be missing?

I have a great need for a program to draw the framing and siding drawings for the walls of log cabins that my company manufactures. I would like to know what program would work for drawing the wall panels that we design. I looked at Revit, but it doesn't look very easy to frame with. I had to draw 2D framing plans in Autocad. We have some Spida saws that can open drawings but seem to use truss design programs that cost $500/month w/ updates and service. I thought the modeling/3D qualities of Revit might make the framing dwg's easier. I can't see it.

Can anyone give me some advice about drawing framing while model building? Thanks.

[aggockel50321]

I took a shot a while back at trying some framing, using families of framing componets, ie, roof rafter system, stud wall, framed window opening, & framed door opening.

The attached project has each of the above families in it. The rafter stringers are a structural beam system done with the structural beam system command under the structural command.

I think it's possible to set up good framing plans that'll produce a BOM and a cut list. If I get some time I'll set up a roof opening, and maybe try a roof valley and roof ridge.

The key, (which I've violated), is to set up a good set of shared parameters in order to maintain some consistancy between the families & to get the schedules to reflect what you want to see.

The project was too large to upload here, so if you want a copy, pm myself & I'll give you an ftp site where you can retrieve it.