ADT and BIM

[Brian Myers]

Now I'm not trying to start an ADT vs. Revit debate, on the contrary, this question is assuming both stay active in the market place.

Question: Where do you see ADT heading as far as the market for BIM?

Autodesk is obviously pushing Revit as the BIM product of choice while I heard ADT recently called "AutoCAD for Architects". Do you see the BIM capabilities to be more fully developed or do you believe that other areas may be focused on? Will Revit and ADT be fully interoperable when it comes to sharing BIM data?

I can see ADT being used in either environment (BIM and non-BIM) production as well as a basic design environment before getting imported into a fully BIM environment.

Anyone have thoughts?

[Chuckyd67]

When Revit was first announced in San Francisco, all the Autodesk execs stated that "Revit is the future of Autodesk." The reasoning was that the Autocad platform was over 20 years old and Autocad and all the products that are based on Autocad are now "mature products." "Mature products" was explained as there are limitations to future development.

At that same announcement, Revit was demonstrated to the audience, and I left underwhelmed. However, at a LUG meeting, and Autodesk product manager demonstrated the same software, and I was ready to jump on board then. However, I work for multi-disciplinary firms and cannot justify saving files from Revit to Autocad and importing back, no matter how seamless it is claimed. We were led to believe that engineering releases were just around the corner, and here we are today with only Structural added to the original pile.

At the same time I see ADT morphing into the same functionality as Revit with Project Navigator and display settings.

I don't know what to make of it. The published numbers for Revit sales seem to be encouraging, however, the continued development of a "mature product" seems to contradict those numbers.

It seems to me that any product on the market today called BIM is misleading, at best. None that I know of encompass all the building components. Without all the components how can you have a true BIM? That's like selling an engine and transmission and calling it a car. A better name would be "BIM-Ready," to take a phrase from the TV industry.

So, I am waiting for a real BIM product. Hopefully, I can use it before I retire.

[aaronrumple]

ADT has major issues to be a true BIM. AutoCAD is the biggest issue. As long as I can explode and draw lines and use non-BIM information for a large percntage of my work, how can the INFORMATION be trusted?

[david_peterson]

I think you're both right, heck I think all the comments I see are right (for the most part) But in 5-8 yrs, you won't see Acad, ADT or Revit, it will be something much different and much more user friendly. I've heard ADT can do Anything. I've heard Revit can to anything. But the bottom line is that while revit is truly parametric, I find it difficult to create wall families. With ADT I can't make an Analytical model, then again with what I get from Revit, I don't know that it's the answer either. Revit, ADT, ADT, Revit...... Who Knows..... I still say in 5-8 yrs you will have a hybrid that is parametric like Revit, Easy to model (In my opinion) like ADT and Easy to Detail with like Acad, all in a brand new package that everyone will say is the best thing since Sliced Bread (Or cheese in my case) and I'll be there buying up Autodesk stock to make another 40%.

[aaronrumple]

...and I'll be there buying up Autodesk stock to make another 40%.
Of course it could be some new guy on the block.... ADSK keeps getting bigger and there will be those wanting a shot at that pool of $$$. I'm thinking Google Edifice - web hosted, distributed server based,

[Steve_Bennett]

Of course it could be some new guy on the block.... ADSK keeps getting bigger and there will be those wanting a shot at that pool of $$$. I'm thinking Google Edifice - web hosted, distributed server based,I'm still waiting for my wireless brain tap so I can just veg on the computer. ;-)

[arcadia_x27]

Like others have said I dont think that either program will become totally "BIM" in the truest sense of the word. I think that What you'll see is ADT and Revit being more able to "talk" to one another exchanging data. Eventually I think you'll probably see both products merge to become that better, smarter BIM program in the 5-8 years Mr. Peterson was talking about.

[Chuckyd67]

I am still waiting for the model to be assembled just as the actual building, and smart enough to know the level of detail required for viewing, whether on the screen or on printed documents. Such a system will eliminate detail creation. Instead, you just draw a view box about a condition and view the detail without drawing anything extra, and notation is automated. And, of course, GPS will be smart enough so that dimensions aren't required. Just click on an element to get its end points based on the GPS data. Now, THAT's a BIM!

[Brian Myers]

I am still waiting for the model to be assembled just as the actual building, and smart enough to know the level of detail required for viewing, whether on the screen or on printed documents. Such a system will eliminate detail creation. Instead, you just draw a view box about a condition and view the detail without drawing anything extra, and notation is automated. And, of course, GPS will be smart enough so that dimensions aren't required. Just click on an element to get its end points based on the GPS data. Now, THAT's a BIM!

Exactly... BIM today is more like BiM = BUILDING information MODELING with the current information being tiny compared to what we will be able to generate in the future... right now we are mostly just doing Building Modeling.

[hand471037]

Exactly... BIM today is more like BiM = BUILDING information MODELING with the current information being tiny compared to what we will be able to generate in the future... right now we are mostly just doing Building Modeling.

Maybe you are. I'm busy doing, well, BIM. With a big I.

Geeze you guys have some pretty big ideas as to what BIM is. Which is strange, for as far as I can tell y'all aren't even using a dedicated BIM tool like Revit, but instead are using a more hybrid approach of ADT.

There's a lot of value and information in BIM even at this early state, without '3D virtual-reality automated details' and 'GPS positioning'. BIM adds a lot of value, especially when it can be done with little overhead as Revit allows.

I mean, shoot, your stuff isn't even automatically coordinated, which I feel is a fundamental part of the whole BIM idea.

So I don't mean to offend, but you guys kinda sound like guys who are debating the merits of various Formula One cars when you're not race car drivers, and haven't ever actually driven one, but instead just have a 'sporty' car. Yes, it can be similar, but it's really two different worlds.

I'd be interested in hearing more real-world examples of people leveraging the whole BIM idea, but not using a dedicated BIM tool for the job, personally. Can you guys give some examples of that?

[Brian Myers]

Maybe you are. I'm busy doing, well, BIM. With a big I.
Geeze you guys have some pretty big ideas as to what BIM is. Which is strange, for as far as I can tell y'all aren't even using a dedicated BIM tool like Revit, but instead are using a more hybrid approach of ADT.


I'd wager most of us understand BIM better than your average Revit user. When I say most of us I'm meaning the people talking in this thread vs. your average, every day Revit user who's never really read an article on BIM besides just what the information provided with the Revit program says it is. The comment I made refered to cgraham's comment:



I am still waiting for the model to be assembled just as the actual building, and smart enough to know the level of detail required for viewing, whether on the screen or on printed documents. Such a system will eliminate detail creation.


What Revit currently can do really is the little "i". Revit of 7-10 years from now will likely be able to do the big I.. it's just not there yet. By the time it comes we'll (the ADT users in this Forum) will have either all changed over as well or we'll still be using ADT if it fits our needs better at that time. For the most part we really love and believe in BIM just like you do! In most cases we simply have other reasons to have not made the transition as of yet.

[david_peterson]

What Revit currently can do really is the little "i". Revit of 7-10 years from now will likely be able to do the big I.. it's just not there yet. By the time it comes we'll (the ADT users in this Forum) will have either all changed over as well or we'll still be using ADT if it fits our needs better at that time. For the most part we really love and believe in BIM just like you do! In most cases we simply have other reasons to have not made the transition as of yet.As much as I hate to disagree here, I'd tend to say that you might be just a little bit off.
There is a custom residential home design/build company in our area that is using Revit with what I would call a big I. They have a multitude of different options for their "Canned" house plans that they can easily modify on the spot in front of the client from which they can spit out a material list, which they can then send to their estimating software which they can then get a price from. Right there on the spot.
Now I know it took them much longer than the "2 weeks to be productive". But, I'd bet the same is possible with enough programming, forethought and front-end set-up in ADT. The difference is in the parametric model aspect. In ADT you can anchor things to other things, but they don't alway work. And your estimate might be a little more difficult in ADT. But neither of them have the all encompassing building information. Just a bunch of parts from a bunch of different models. I'd still say in about 5-8yrs (maybe a little longer) you'll see a new type of platform Called "X". Platform "x" will link A,C,L,M,E,P,S, and construction sub-platforms into one file with all the information into one centrally data-set. This way when I model structure, I don't need the MEP functions, A doesn't need the S functions, but the overall model/dataset will be all contained in one file.
Just a thought (hope)

[hand471037]

I'd wager most of us understand BIM better than your average Revit user. When I say most of us I'm meaning the people talking in this thread vs. your average, every day Revit user who's never really read an article on BIM besides just what the information provided with the Revit program says it is.

I'd like to know what you're basing that assumption off of. How many 'average' Revit users do you know? That you've talked to, personally, about these things?

I'd also like to hear more examples of people leveraging BIM using ADT. Wasn't that what this thread is for? I talked for an hour and a half to 250+ people at AU this year about this very topic, about real-world examples of leveraging BIM using Revit, and so I'd love to hear similar examples 'from the trenches' so to speak of people doing similar things but with the hybrid, can-be-BIM approach of ADT, instead of the BIM by default of Revit.

[hand471037]

I'd still say in about 5-8yrs (maybe a little longer) you'll see a new type of platform Called "X". Platform "x" will link A,C,L,M,E,P,S, and construction sub-platforms into one file with all the information into one centrally data-set.

Have you heard of the IFC-based BLIS project?

http://www.blis-project.org/

It's that.

Basically.

You author the information with whatever tool you want too, and then you talk to a model server via IFC that coordinates all the info from the various disciplines.

And it's still years away. Kind of a pipe dream, really, at this point.

[Brian Myers]

As much as I hate to disagree here, I'd tend to say that you might be just a little bit off.
Now I know it took them much longer than the "2 weeks to be productive". But, I'd bet the same is possible with enough programming, forethought and front-end set-up in ADT. The difference is in the parametric model aspect. In ADT you can anchor things to other things, but they don't alway work. And your estimate might be a little more difficult in ADT.

Actually, 100% agree with you... but what you mentioned did come with a steep price. As a custom builder you can take the time to sit down and set-up everything to work on the fly. Also, getting pricing set-up to work with this BIM model wouldn't be drastically hard since you would be able to set this up in a database ahead of time. In this case it would be pretty darn close to the big "I" and I would likely call it that as well (others could argue against this, but I won't).

But builders tend to build communities often over a three year+ span (I know, I designed for one for over 3 years). Their design department could potentially just use the same details/variables and simply plug them in from other projects they've worked on and used these materials. In other words, it's mostly set-up ahead of time and the information can be re-used often from project to project and community to community. In a typical architectural office where the "commodity" differs so greatly it would be difficult without the help of your materials suppliers to enter the materials and other information required for such a venture and still be profitable in the project due to chargable hours unless the client was willing to invest in it.

So the technology to do this with pre-entered information is already there, but realistically it's not something most offices can do or currently do. Also the tech to do what "cgraham" mentioned doesn't quite exist yet even in this scenario because it would have been designed ahead of time by the designer and not figured out in total by the program itself, which will be the full implementation of the big I.

[Brian Myers]

I'd like to know what you're basing that assumption off of. How many 'average' Revit users do you know? That you've talked to, personally, about these things?

Honestly? 7 that I can remember. I'm the President of my local User Group here in St Louis and there are a small but very loyal group of companies using Revit in this city. I can tell you that your average Revit user knows much more about BIM than your average AutoCAD/ADT user for which I typically need to tell what BIM stands for. In general Revit users understand Parametric Models as well as anyone you'll ever talk to, but when you break it down to concepts like using BIM in life cycle management and even generating materials you can tell you are reaching (or have reached) their knowledge limit. That's not to say they wouldn't be able to figure it out, it's just beyond the scope most have ever utilized it in an office environment.



I'd also like to hear more examples of people leveraging BIM using ADT. Wasn't that what this thread is for?

Actually this thread was where do you see ADT in the market heading in terms of BIM. That might include leveraging today, but it also includes will ADT use this data tomorrow which was a concept challenged in another thread.

[Steve_Bennett]

I'd like to know what you're basing that assumption off of. How many 'average' Revit users do you know? That you've talked to, personally, about these things?

I'd also like to hear more examples of people leveraging BIM using ADT. Wasn't that what this thread is for? I talked for an hour and a half to 250+ people at AU this year about this very topic, about real-world examples of leveraging BIM using Revit, and so I'd love to hear similar examples 'from the trenches' so to speak of people doing similar things but with the hybrid, can-be-BIM approach of ADT, instead of the BIM by default of Revit.The last company I worked for I helped develop the components of ADT for use in shop drawings of SCL (Trus Joist) where they used ADT & the structural members in it to aid in material list generation which is then sent to the plant. The structural members had enough property sets attached that alowed for this.

[hand471037]

That's not to say they wouldn't be able to figure it out, it's just beyond the scope most have ever utilized it in an office environment.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from. However, I think that it's more that such things are off the radar of most Revit users simply because, right now, the primary value of using Revit and therefore BIM is internal to their own businesses. What I mean is that they can do more, in less time, and do it better, because of Revit making it easy to leverage BIM just within their own firm. They aren't choosing Revit for abstract reasons of what it 'could do someday' they are choosing it for the immediate benefits it gives THEM over a non-BIM solution. Just like those choosing to stay with ADT are doing so because they feel, for whatever reason, that there is more value to stay in AutoCAD for their businesses.

I think that most of those using Revit WANT to begin sharing out information in more complex ways with the whole Project team (builder, owner, subs) but that the opportunities aren't there yet, and that's why they aren't too worried about it at this time, or are trying to push on the rest of the Project team to begin pursuing those opportunities. It's not that they aren't aware of it, or even don't know about it, it's just that we're *just now* being able to share information in more intelligent ways using Revit. I think this attitude will change a lot in the next year or two.

The reason I want to hear more real-world examples is because I for one don't assume that ADT = BIM at all. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen too many people really using ADT as a BIM system. I know they are out there, and if we're going to talk about how ADT may play a role in BIM in the future I want to be certain that it's playing a significant role in it right now, for I just haven't seen it. But I'm just one guy, after all, so that's why I brought it up here, to hear from other folks what they have seen going on out there in regards to this issue, so that maybe of others ask 'hey could that be done in Revit' or 'hey could that be brought out of Revit and into ADT' that maybe I'd be able to help out in that discussion, from at least the Revit side of things. I'm also asking here because it very much seems that the ADT newsgroups on the Autodesk website are worse than useless in talking about such things...

[jay.80870]

FYI - Technically the new marketing message Autodesk is using for ADT is "Making AutoCAD Better for Architects". Personally I think too much is being made of this message. For the majority of those of us in these groups we have already been sold on one platform or another. Autodesk marketing is simply searching for a new message to attract those that are on non-Autodesk platforms or non-upgradeable versions of Autodesk software (I.E. R14 and AutoCAD LT users). The Revit message will too have to change over time once they have saturated a particular market and need to search out and open up new ones. Companies change marketing messages all the time. It does not mean the product or intent is changing.

BIM? What is BIM? Who cares? I care but our end users don't. They want their CD's asap and they don't care what we use, how it get's used or if it is the future. In time this will change b/c we are educating them to the opportunites of modeling but until then speed, efficiency and compatibility are king (at least for our customers). Ed Goldberg wrote a very good article in the Nov.Dec 2005 issue of AUGI magazine on BIM. At this point I don't think there is a clear winner or definition of BIM. It hasn't been around long enough for anybody to truly put the answer on stone tablets. BIM can be many things to many different people. Also, I think there are huge gulfs of differences in definitions, uses and intent between industries (manufacturing, commercial and residential).

Real world use of BIM? As a service organization for volume homebuilders we have been using BIM for some time now on ADT. Yes we utilize an add-on (our own) but the point is that we are effectively creating full BIM models, construction documents, framing, bill of materials, renderings & animations for a single source model. Is it different than Revit? Yes. Is it BIM? Yes. The point is that the model is driving all of the intelligent data.

It's unfortunate that such a rift has developed between those that support ADT and those that support Revit. Much wasted time and effort is exerted over egos and personal opinions (I have been guilty of this as well) :). The key is that there are two excellent products providing various levels of BIM development. Fortunately they are on the same team (Autodesk) and I believe the the development of each one is catapulting each platform to higher levels than they would achieve alone. Each product can (and does) feed off the other and is growing into a more definable and standardized platform over time. There are many good things ADT can learn from Revit and vice versa. IMHO, of course :)

I'll look to post an example project in the gallery shortly.

Thanks
Jay Moore
VisionREZ by Ameri-CAD, Inc.

[devilfrog]

I think Jay sums it all up perfectly. ;-)

[Scott D Davis]

Is it BIM? Yes.

Jay Moore
VisionREZ by Ameri-CAD, Inc.
Do I sense a name change in the future? VisionREZ by Ameri-BIM. :wink: (Doesn't quite sound right....:grin: )

It's gotta be getting tougher, as the term "CAD" begins to take on an almost negative connotation. In this new "BIM" world, if you are still doing "CAD" you are falling behind. I would say the same for the names AutoCAD and ArchiCAD, and all the other CAD players. That acronym may soon be looked at in a different way. "Remember when we used to do CAD??" Although I don't see the acronym BIM making it into product names. AutoBIM?? ArchiBIM?? (well, they would have to use ArchiViB, because Graphisoft prefers 'virtual building' since BIM was coined by Autodesk)

Okay, well back to my Mayline, Rapidographs, Vellum, and Staedtler F and HBs.

[Chuckyd67]

Jeffery, how can you be doing BIM with a "big I", when you are missing 70% of the building components?

[jay.80870]

Do I sense a name change in the future? VisionREZ by Ameri-BIM. :wink: (Doesn't quite sound right....:grin: )
:) No name change at this point but good points to think about. But I agree it sure doesn't sound right.

Thanks
Jay Moore
VisionREZ by Ameri-CAD

[Scott D Davis]

Jeffery, how can you be doing BIM with a "big I", when you are missing 70% of the building components?
Whether we draw one wall or an entire building, we are still modeling building information. That one wall still holds a wealth of information.