Stacked Wall Join and Host Wall Sweep Problems

[residarchitect]

I am in the final stages of a FLW Prairie Look House and I have
had considerable problems with stacked wall joins and sweep joins.

I have extensively used stacked walls in this project. The joins
problems I am experiencing are with stacked walls of the same
parameters and type (brick veneer with a STO DRYVIT top). I have 3 sweeps
that will be made from STO DRYVIT: a sill, a band midway up the stucco,
and a freeze double band. On about 50 % of these wall joins one or
more of these problems arise: the plan view does not show a join,
the elevation does not exhibit join and the 3D view does not have
a join. The sweeps exhibit those same problems.

Any thoughts. I have spent way to much time, hours and hours and
hours and hours and I thought to take it to you guys and gals
for suggestions. Thanks for your help as always.

[tamas]

From the posted image I can only tell that those joins should work. The corners you show do not look complicated. Perhaps you used the "Disallow Join" command on some of the walls?

Wall sweeps follow the wall joins, so if the join is not created, the sweeps will not miter either.

Stacked walls work best when neighboring subwalls are aligned horizontally.

In any case, if the stacked wall causes you trouble. just break it up and deal with the individual subwalls.

Tamas

[residarchitect]

Tamas thanks for the reply.

When you said "Stacked walls work best when neighboring subwalls are aligned horizontally." When I go into an intersection that is causing me problems (and
frankly I have a great deal of them on this project) I do not see different datum points for each wall coming into the intersection (they both start at the 2nd floor and they both terminate at the attic level.

Is there something you can see that I have not yet done?

Believe me I have spent way way way way too much time on this but really want to know what is causing the problem.

[cosmickingpin]

Although Tamas breaks his mouse clicking me with bad rep every time I say this "stacked walls are evil."-BTW bravo on those automatic mullion freatures!- If you are focused on residential work I can see some advantages to using them, but some features in Revit, although clever, sometimes end up wasting much time in rare situations. Instead of stacked walls I use curtain walls (especialy in early masing studies) with each panel as a the right wall type all the way up the assembly starting with a footing all the way up to the cavity wall, offset each panels to the correct location, and it makes for easier editing in section and elevation. In some of those pesky situations you might recreate just those misbehaving walls with a curtain walls and change the panels to the right walls type, and just see if it fixes just those trouble spots.

[tamas]

Tamas thanks for the reply.

When you said "Stacked walls work best when neighboring subwalls are aligned horizontally." When I go into an intersection that is causing me problems (and
frankly I have a great deal of them on this project) I do not see different datum points for each wall coming into the intersection (they both start at the 2nd floor and they both terminate at the attic level.

Is there something you can see that I have not yet done?

Believe me I have spent way way way way too much time on this but really want to know what is causing the problem.Hmm, I don't see anything here either. Maybe the horizontal wall is pulled a bit too far to the right? (on the middle image)

Tamas

[tamas]

Although Tamas breaks his mouse clicking me with bad rep every time I say this "stacked walls are evil."You sure got a lot of red boxes going on; and all from bad mouthing stacked walls ;-) ? You must have made someone pretty upset...

[Melarch]

Looking at the images you posted in the second post, I would say the walls are not cleaning up and that is why your wall sweeps are stopping. Second, try using the Edit Wall Joins tool to either miter the corners or get them to clean up (abut) differently.

I have had a mixed bag of success with getting wall sweeps to clean up completely on non-stacked walls. What I have done in those scenarios is start a new wall sweep and drag its control grips out to meet the other walls sweep.

Mel Persin, AIA

[residarchitect]

Tamas,

What did you mean by "Maybe the horizontal wall is pulled a bit too far to the right?"

On that same intersection, I got the perpendicular wall coming all the way thru the
join to be visible on the front elevation in both plan, elevation, and 3D view.

I have had this problem on non stacked walls at times given non 90 degree intersections,
however, I get this condition probably 70% of the time on all stacked walls (more often on non 90 degree intersections) where one of the walls decides to ignore the other wall and I get this phenomenon.

This is the first time that I have used wall host sweeps (I have used roof host sweeps
successfully on top of stacked walls).

This brings up a question, I have had for a while. When walls intersect "properly" on the horizontal plane, what should one find when they want to "edit the profile" of either wall in that intersection (to test or correct that both walls are properly drawn).

On the hoirizontal plane, should the profile line end (on both walls of the intersection):
1) at the interior intersection of both intersecting walls,
2) at the center of the intersecting wall given that both walls being of the same type, parameters, and so on
3) at the center of the core given that both walls are of different wall types and parameters.
4) at the exterior corner edge of both intersecting walls.

[cosmickingpin]

You're just healous cause I am red hot... Well its gonna be a while before I trust stacked walls again. You guy are still working on them right?


You sure got a lot of red boxes going on; and all from bad mouthing stacked walls ;-) ? You must have made someone pretty upset...

[Steve_Stafford]

...Well its gonna be a while before I trust stacked walls again. You guy are still workng on them right?...umm...they are working on "all" of Revit :shock: all of the time...



well except for the elevation markers? (that's for Aaron...)

[lev.lipkin]

Please copy walls at join (with wall sweeps) to simplified file and post the file here or send to support. This way we could work on problems which caused real trouble. Thanks!

[Max Lloyd]

I've said it before....but try cutting one of the offending walls to clipboard, then re-pasting to it's original location. I have found this to work before with the nightmare that can be STACKED WALLS!

[Archman]

I've said it before....but try cutting one of the offending walls to clipboard, then re-pasting to it's original location. I have found this to work before with the nightmare that can be STACKED WALLS!

Similarly, I have found that if you change the wall type of the offending walls to a simple wall, and then change them back to the stacked wall type, that they clean. With that said, I still recommend sending the file to support so they can look at it.

[cosmickingpin]

What about editing a stacked wall's elevation profile, is that still like field surgery in the war of 1812? I tried it in 8.0 and my computer caught fire.

[residarchitect]

I have enclosed a sample of 2nd floor stacked walls
with sweeps where joins were a problem.

thanks again.

[residarchitect]

Does anyone have the answer to a question I asked earlier in this post? It regards wall
intersections regardless of them being stacked or not.

This brings up a question, I have had for a while. When walls intersect "properly" on the horizontal plane, what should one find when they want to "edit the profile" of either wall in elevation of that intersection (to test or correct that both walls are properly drawn).

On the hoirizontal plane, should the profile line end (on both walls of the intersection):
1) at the interior intersection of both intersecting walls,
2) at the center of the intersecting wall given that both walls being of the same type, parameters, and so on
3) at the center of the core given that both walls are of different wall types and parameters.
4) at the exterior corner edge of both intersecting walls.

[lev.lipkin]

One sweep is hosted by thick bottom wall, another by thin top wall, causing confusion, different offsets from wall, and no miter.

We would look how to make clean up work in such cases in future development. Sorry for trouble.

Meanwhile, when placing wall sweep pay attention to sub-wall being picked, as wall sweep needs to get same offset (from same wall) to miter. It would need deletion of existing wall sweep, as there is no 'rehosting' which could we used (in my attempts).

[tamas]

Does anyone have the answer to a question I asked earlier in this post? It regards wall
intersections regardless of them being stacked or not.

This brings up a question, I have had for a while. When walls intersect "properly" on the horizontal plane, what should one find when they want to "edit the profile" of either wall in elevation of that intersection (to test or correct that both walls are properly drawn).

On the hoirizontal plane, should the profile line end (on both walls of the intersection):
1) at the interior intersection of both intersecting walls,
2) at the center of the intersecting wall given that both walls being of the same type, parameters, and so on
3) at the center of the core given that both walls are of different wall types and parameters.
4) at the exterior corner edge of both intersecting walls.The answer is 2) even for walls with different thickness.

I posted a fixed version of your file. Both corners had problems with the walls not exactly being joined. I used the trim command to make sure that they are accurately intersected. Stacked walls use the regular wall join mechanisms and the techniques to clean up joins apply to them as well. Like the pull back one wall and extend again to make sure the join is reconfigured.

Or you can use the Edit Wall Join command editing the joins formed by the individual subwalls. There is a problem here which we will try to correct at a future version. Namely there is very little feedback as to which join was selected for editing. All display the join selection box at the base of the stacked wall regardless the vertical position of the subwall whose join is being edited. So you should make sure you select the join in a 3d view at the appropriate height.

One of the wall sweeps was pulled back manually and thus it did not miter to its neighbor. The other I deleted and repicked on the same subwall as Lev also suggested and they now find their correct shape.

You seem to edit the elevation profile frequently for some reason. I did not see why the two middle walls needed it. The edited profile can be removed by the "Remove Profile" command in the options bar when the wall is selected.


Hope these answered your questions.

Tamas

[tamas]

What about editing a stacked wall's elevation profile, is that still like field surgery in the war of 1812? I tried it in 8.0 and my computer caught fire.I believe we fixed a few elevation profile related bugs in 8.1. Or your computer has not recovered since for you to try 8.1 yet?

Tamas

[bill159595]

Put cursor over the rogue sweep...,
tab through until you actually select the sweep.
2 dots will appear, 1 at each end.
Drag the sweep dot to the edge of wall that isn't mitering (joining etc), if it isn't there already. Then go up to the Modify Returns box on the Ribbon bar and after clicking on the Modify Return you should get a dialogue,
select <Return> and select the appropriate angle. 90deg typically.


Hope that helps!
I'm in Revit Arch 2011