Offshore Revit

[sultarc]

I'm being marketed by an offshore outfit who say they can produce in Revit. The group is called Trek. They advertise $14.00 per hour rates. Anyone know of this group or have any experience with them?

[jbalding48677]

I do not know of Trek specifically, however we had a discussion at the latest SCRUG meeting and the opinion was that off-shoring cost just as much in time and language barriers than it was worth. Additionally, there was discussion of off-shoring BIM work at the most recent Technology in Construction conference and the feeling was that differences in code issues, construction methodologies are amplified by BIM as you are building rather than just representing with lines etc.

That said, my opinion, at the moment, is we are shying away from off-shoring BIM or CAD work.

[Doug]

Not sure if your are a licensed architect or not... Here in Michigan and the other states I am licensed in you can only seal drawings that are prepared under your direct supervision... meaning they have to be employees of yours not contract labor.

Just a thought...

[sbrown]

Doug, what you are speaking of is in Florida too. They are really cracking down on licensed architects signing and sealing work that was done outside of their supervision. What is interesting in Fl, is the state laws and the local building dept. rules are in conflict. Basically Fl. law allows for anyone to design a home or a shed, etc. but the building departments require signed and stamped drawings for anything over 200sf. This has created a market for illegal stamping. Because you have a ton of homebuilders and shed/garage makers who used to beable to do their jobs without an Architect and by florida law they can, however they can't get thru the building dept. without stamped plans, so they have to hire someone to stamp them.

[PeterJ]

I'm working with two companies, both pretty large, a Contractor who off-shores some rebar detailing work in their own Indian subsidiary and a Structural Engineer, who produces all their drawings in Bangkok.

With a dedicated team and a willingness to shoulder the learning curve costs they have both managed to make it work, but I suspect they pay over the odds for their local guys so there is a high skill base and a low churn rate. That may not be the case in the smaller houses.

[rod.74246]

I can't ever condone offshore use of anyone for drafting. The potential for disaster is phenomenal. Not too mention the lack of control. ) I have enough issues having to put up with offshore call centres let alone drafting services)

In some respects i can't see any benefits off offshore Revit work. How can you possibly make it work if you are also using it in house? You can't workset it effectively, the only way i could see this work is to get it done in its entirety based on sketches and markups. And even then how the hell do you collaborate with the rest of your team?

I don't know. I strongly beleive all architecture work should be done in house. All outsourcing says to me is cheap and poor quality. Producing a building is pure teamwork based and relies on all the members of the documentation team. I can;t see how it works by vending it out to the lowest offshore bidder.

[hand471037]

I once worked for a place that was looking at having off-shore labor generate Revit Families for us (it was a company that's looking to provide Revit content to building product manufacturers).

It was a mess.

We'd get back work that looked right visually, but wouldn't work parametrically. For example, because of how they were modeling most things, the doors wouldn't work in walls of certain thicknesses for example. Or another example is where something would look right, but be in the wrong category or have the wrong parameters.

Seeing that the offshore crew hadn't ever modeled buildings or used Revit on projects, they really didn't know what we wanted, and teaching them and telling them and holding their hand the whole time quickly lost any value we were getting by having them do the work instead of, say, a young'in in-house.

Now, on the other hand, there is a local company here who has a branch office in Hungry. Bunch of 'real' Architects over there. They get the work locally here, send it there, and have their offshore crew do it. You get local folks to talk to, and actual knowledgeable folks doing the work, and it's cheap. They mostly do 3D visualization things, and gruntwork cad drafting. Last I heard they were looking at Revit too. so if you could find something like that, where the remote crew is all college-trained and licenced Architects and there's some local representation to do more of the hand-holding for you so it doesn't eat up your time, then I'd consider it if I needed to outsource work.

But where I work now we've got many, many people and offices, so we tend to 'in-source' for lack of a better term.

[dbaldacchino]

Interesting discussion. We were recently talking about this because a licensed architect (US citizen, but with roots in the Asian continent) has decided to go back to his home country due to family reasons. There were talks about possibly "outsourcing" some work in the future. This guy can run projects on his own, and that might work. But, when even in the same office, I see the mis-communication that happens all the time, I wouldn't dare to speculate what the end result of outsourcing to a foreign country might be!

A few years ago, our company decided to open various full service offices where we already had business presence (project management mainly) because clients like to see you're there all the time, and some don't understand how you can send design development and CD work in another office. Once more, even between our satellite offices and our then-central office, sometimes it was a mess to work. I can't image how a job would be run when you can't physically sit face to face. Having said that, I'm sure its not an impossible task. It just takes the art of communication to a whole new level.

[David J Krope]

This is chapter and verse from the Illinois Architectural act.

Professional Conduct

1) An architect shall not sign or seal drawings, specifications, reports or other professional work for which the architect has not exercised responsible control as set forth in Section 14 of the Act; provided, however, that in the case of the portions of such professional work prepared by the architect's consultants, licensed under another professional licensure law of this jurisdiction, the architect may sign and seal that portion of the professional work if the architect has reviewed such portion, has coordinated its preparation and intends to be responsible for its adequacy pursuant to Section 14(2) of the Act. The signing and sealing of the work of a consultant by the architect does not exempt the consultant from signing and sealing professional work prepared by the consultant as required by the Act or by another licensure law of this jurisdiction.

This brings it to the definition of responsible control as set forth in Section 14 of the Act. I cannot find that section on the web so we can dissect it. What does the Florida and Michigan law say?

I do believe things already get a bit blurred and open to interpretation. For example we will often use a manufacturer's detail, say a roofing detail, that was not "originally" generated by our office under my direct control. Doesn't it then become an esoteric argument as to when you have responsible control. Is it when you trace it? Hmmm,scanning and removing "Johns-Manville" isn't that the same as tracing? I do not know the answer as I do not think that State's licensure law has caught up to where we are in an international, electronic, web based market, IMO.

And I ask again (and again) if we are looking for our licensure laws to protect us when in the process of the creation of a BIM model does it constitute the practice of architecture. Better tell Pixar.

As far as sub par work, $14.00/hr, that is like hiring an employee making less than $5.00 an hour. You can deal with alot of problems for that price. Won't the suppliers of this work either improve or go out of business? Which one do you bet on?

Do not get me wrong I am not advocating for these issues but I do think this is a slow train coming and we should be proactive about how to deal fairly with them.

[BWG]

I believe you will find that most states will require direct supervision of your construction documents, but I haven't read any where this has been challenged with offshoring. Now that NCARB is moving forward with the National license and they are working to get the APAC area to our standards as they have with Canada and Mexico, this direct supervision will probably go away. There is a big push for globalization and eliminating border barriers (be it language, commerce, or governing/legislation) in our profession - for good or bad. Come to think of it, it is happening in all professions/industries and has happened in some.

[BWG]

I would check into the copyright laws before offshoring outside the US. You could be giving up your design and BIM.

[Comach]

Once more, even between our satellite offices and our then-central office, sometimes it was a mess to work. I can't image how a job would be run when you can't physically sit face to face. Having said that, I'm sure its not an impossible task. It just takes the art of communication to a whole new level.Project development and collaboration can be done successfully on globalised projects - I have managed projects like this for years, albeit mainly satellite offices within the same company group - sometimes even using different cad modelling packages. With the right management structure it works well and aligns well with collaborative work philosophies often promoted by companies like Autodesk.

Outsourcing to an external company, can be successfully implemented, which I have also managed, but normally requires local representation to ensure quality conformance.

[ Moderator Action = ON ] Removed - Material no longer relevant in the context of this thread. [ Moderator Action = OFF ]

In conclusion there is good expertise available in offshore design houses - I think it would be wrong to underestimate the value potential and professional services of a reputable resource.