Storefront doors in legend view?

[patricks]

What is the preferred method for showing an aluminum storefront door in the legend view? Being that it's a curtain panel, it seems to only show up as a square panel in the legend view, no matter what value I enter for "Host Length".

[aaronrumple]

The best way is to make it a real door. I nest a shared door family in the curtain wall panel family so it schedules and acts like a door. I think I posted an example recently...

[patricks]

I don't have any trouble scheduling my curtain wall doors, it's just when I try to put it in a legend view.

What I did and what I've done on a project before is to just use the single glass door family and make a type that looks like a storefront door (frames turned off in the door type elevation legend) and it works okay. I was just wondering if there was a way to actually use the storefront door shown in the legend component drop-down list.

[aaronrumple]

I don't think so. The problem is that the curtain wall family strectches to fit all available space, so you don't have the width height that you would need to place it in a legend.

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Aaron is right the way to do it with the least amount of frustration, is to make them (the shopfronts) up as doors/window families

Here is an example of our typical aluminium shopfront legend/sheet layouts.

[mchaney]

The sample sheet shown in Zeds post is fantastic. Can i please request a bit of elaboration on how this accomplished ?

Can you perhaps post a sample of one of your shopfront systems constructed as a door/window family ?

Any assistance would be much appreciated.

Thank you -

[Matt H]

Aaron is right the way to do it with the least amount of frustration, is to make them (the shopfronts) up as doors/window families

Here is an example of our typical aluminium shopfront legend/sheet layouts.


Yes Please Elaborate on this, i'm pulling out my hair trying to figure out how you did that!!
You could send me a PM if you would like

[greg.mcdowell]

my guess is he made the storefronts/curtain walls in the family editor... and that means you have to build each one piece-by-piece out of extrusions and the like...

[mchaney]

We had to figure this one out on our own.... actually we hired a trainer to come in from our CAD sales company to train us on the basics.

Essentially you must model your curtain walls from scratch as Window families. (use ONLY the window.rft template). Every mullion, every piece of glass etc.must be modeled separately. I have attached one of the storefront families we have created in recent weeks. This is a painful and time consuming way of doing things, however once completed, everything will schedules and tags properly - shows up in legends etc.

If you open the attached family you will see how we have gone about building them.

A couple of things to note

1. Solid Form Extrusions can include multiple closed loops. (this makes building the mullions and glass panes much easier)

2. The more parametric you attempt to make your family, the more difficult it is to create... and the more difficult it is to modify. The example file posted contains several parametric variables, however the more we do this, the less parametric we build them.

3. If it is a storefront that will require a door to be inserted into it - in the window family you will modify the 'Opening Cut' object to allow for a bit of wall to remain that will allow you something to place your door into in the actual project file. This will allow the door to tag and schedule normally in the project file. Do not load door families into your window family. This same trick can be used if you want to place windows into your curtain walls and schedule them separately... only if these windows do not occur at the edge of the 'Opening Cut' you will have to create a 'finger' of wall which connects it to the perimeter. This finger can be hidden in a mullion... but again.

4. If you want your window family to cut accurately in plan (this is especially true if you have multi story curtain walls that have a different plan appearance at each level) then you are in for an extra level of torture. In the family - you must change the family type to Generic Model instead of Window. This is simple enough to do - go to Settings -> Family Category and Parameters. Select Generic Models. This will allow it to cut properly in plan views.... except now it will not tag as a window. You must now create a Generic Model tag that looks just like your Window tag. To schedule them, you must use a multi-category schedule. Not that difficult to create, but at some point Revit, enough is enough.

5. Detail components can be loaded into the family. The way we use this is to place detailed mullion drawings into the side elevation views, this way they display properly in our large scale wall sections.

6. Materials for your family - presuming you want your Metal-Aluminum (or whatever) from your project file to be available in your family - you can make your project materials available in the family file. To do this - have both the project and family files open. In the family file, go to File -> Transfer Project Standards. Select the project file for your 'copy from' and check 'materials' only. There you go.

7. When placing these families into Legend views - ideally we would like to see the Exterior Elevation of the glass positioned above a plan view of the same family.... and we would like the plan and elevation to line up.... No way to do this. You cannot rotate your family in a Legend view.... you cannot mirror. If you want them to align properly, your only option is to show the interior elevation (again - not the industry standard). Otherwise get used to the elevation and plan going opposite directions. (if you look at ZEDS legend sheet .pdf as part of the earlier post - you will see this problem)

8. You can mirror your families inside the project file. the example i have attached xxx_door_left.rfa ...also works fine as xxx_door_right.rfa. ... i didn't figure that out until after i had constructed xxxx_door_right.rfa as well.... drat.)

9. To place into a project, you will need to construct a dummy wall to host the window family. In our case, the storefonts actually are placed within concrete frames (made up of beams and columns) so the dummy wall needs to be exactly the same width and height as the window family 'Cut Opening' object.

I will rant for just one moment that this process is a nightmare and one of several HUGE gaping holes in the Revit platform. Our office has wasted weeks now manually reconstructing all curtain walls on six buildings. The curtain wall tool provided in Revit - in my opinion - is perhaps cute for schematic design purposes, but is absolutely worthless for use in construction documents.

The work around i have described (and certainly others are using) is completely undocumented anywhere. There is no set of tools built into Revit that will allow an office to create curtain walls and schedule them in any way resembling the industry standard method. Oddly, this is not mentioned in any brochures.

Good luck

m

[Matt H]

The best way is to make it a real door. I nest a shared door family in the curtain wall panel family so it schedules and acts like a door. I think I posted an example recently...


How do you do that??

[aaronrumple]

We had to figure this one out on our own.... actually we hired a trainer to come in from our CAD sales company to train us on the basics.

Essentially you must model your curtain walls from scratch as Window families. (use ONLY the window.rft template).
Good luck

m
Oh, geee... That's hard.

I'll post a much simpler solution when I get a sec to dig it off the server....

[aaronrumple]

Here you go. Kept it simple.

All that other detail can be done with profiles and detail components right in the curtainwall.

Need a new trainer?

[dbaldacchino]

Hmmmm I like the curtainwall tool and would not want to build window families....that's a drain in project hours that I wouldn't want to burn! For commercial projects, I barely see the need to use windows....we're handling everything with curtainwalls. I think curtainwalls are awesome, you can design on the fly. We use add/remove segments to end up with a panel the size of the door we want, unpin the panel and change it to a generic 4 1/2" wall or a 7 1/2" depending on the system size, and insert a regular door into it (it's a "special" door without a frame). And it schedules just like other doors. The only drawback is not being able to put them in a legend view. See the post below for the method we're using with worksets to create door/window frame elevations.

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=41895

Original thread:
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=41721

[mchaney]

Thank you David and Aaron for your responses -
& we would most certainly welcome a new trainer (s) - your input is much appreciated.

Aaron - I have looked over the example that you posted. This seems like the method of curtain wall / door creation we were originally using before we realized we could not tag, schedule or legend (to use legend as a verb) the complete curtain wall assembly. The doors tag properly.... if that is all one is after.

In the project i am currently working on (and fairly typical for projects in our office) i have approximately 15 different curtain wall types. These are all 'infill storefront' assemblies like the sample i posted earlier. Of these 15 'types' there range from 1 to 20 instances of each. We need to be able to tag each of these instances and have the 'Type Mark' displayed in the tag. If we need to change one of these types, (say move the sill up 4") we open the family, move the sill up 4" and it updates in all 20 instances. We also need to schedule each of these instances as a 'window type.' Looks to me like this is how Zeds has it working too.

I have attached a sample project which has 2 of our custom window families in it, a glazing schedule and legend.

We would be VERY happy to find a simpler method to accomplishing this. In your method, is there a way to tag the complete curtain wall assembly ? Is it possible to schedule the complete assembly (as opposed to the individual curtain wall panels) or generate frame elevations?

One of my original attempts at this was using the curtain wall tool and created the first of these assemblies. I then grouped it and copied it around the project. Wound up with 15 groups etc... Groups were killing project performance... and realized too late that there is no way to tag or schedule a group.

Any input you can provide is very appreciated -

Thank you

Mathew Chaney
Project Manager / Designer
Steven Ehrlich Architects

[dbaldacchino]

I think what you're describing might be one of the shortfalls of Revit that I personally didn't expect as a newcomer. In my case, it's not often for us to have a lot of re-used frame configurations in a job and we typically document those at the end of a job, after most of the changes are complete.

I wish you could define a curtainwall manually by adding/moving grids, editing panels etc., save the configuration as a "type" and then re-use it. That way, you could make a change once as you described, and it would happen everywhere that frame is used. At the moment, that can only be done with window families, and you pretty much have to create a family each time you need a different configuration rather then editing within the project like you do with a curtainwall.

We don't create schedules for curtainwalls/window & door frames, but we draw frame elevation sheets, all dimensioned etc. We designate the frame with a frame type number if a door/s is inserted in it. Otherwise it's designated as a window type. So at the moment, we manually add that number in a tag. Now what I'd try if I had multiple instances of one curtainwall/frame configuration, is to add the tag as part of the group and copy that around. Couldn't that work for you?
I heard about several methods people use to document these frames/windows/cwalls. Some resort to very unBIMlike methods, such as re-drawing in 2d....ack!! I honestly wish there was a better way. The method described in my previous post (link) is the closest I've been able to come up with that works for us, but it still takes a bit of "manual" coordination, like designating the frame type with numbers manually (or window type with letters). The Type Mark parameters in most families are nice as they alert the user if there's a duplicate, and in some cases won't let you duplicate at all (Rooms for instance alert the user and get listed in the "Review Warnings", while sheet number parameters and view name parameters cannot be duplicated at all). Perhaps we need a parameter that we can add to any Revit family that acts like that? Then you can use that as your "Type Mark" and you're sure that there's no duplicate frame number.

I don't know what the anwer ultimately is. What I know is that if you model it, you should be able to document it without a lot of effort.....it is not the case with curtainwalls.

[aaronrumple]

1. Build your storefront type. It can have rules for spacing if you like.
2. Save it with a unique type name for scheduling.
3. Group the elements.
4. Place the groups "Type" as needed. If you change a type group - all the others will update.
5. You won't be able to use a legend, but you can assemble a fake legend using detail callouts. Make a callout. hide it in the host view. Turn off all but curtain wall elements in the new view. Dimension, lablel and tag as needed. The type mark will work for the curtain wall and you can also tag door types. The curtain wall panel hosting the door can be tagged also should you want to include a tag on the elevation.
6. You can create a filtered schedule for each if needed.

Pretty simple...

[mchaney]

1. Build your storefront type. It can have rules for spacing if you like.
2. Save it with a unique type name for scheduling.
3. Group the elements.
4. Place the groups "Type" as needed. If you change a type group - all the others will update.
5. You won't be able to use a legend, but you can assemble a fake legend using detail callouts. Make a callout. hide it in the host view. Turn off all but curtain wall elements in the new view. Dimension, lablel and tag as needed.
6. You can create a filtered schedule for each if needed.

Pretty simple...

Again - thank you david and aaron for your detailed feedback here - this type of discussion is EXTREMELY helpful.

aaron - i tested it out - your method works pretty well. creating the fake legend is a little bit of a nuisance.... but nothing compared to modeling these things from scratch.

we are too far down the track for this project... but in the future i think this is the way to go.

couple of thoughts for improvement ::
if it didn't throw the schedule off by 1.... it would be nice to place an extra instance of each 'group type' off in the distance somewhere to simplify creating the fake legend plan and elevation views. if you could set an instance parameter for the group you could filter these out.... any thoughts on how to trick the schedule into not seeing these extra instances ?

also - if one could place detail components into the mullion profiles such that they appear correctly (with greater detail) in large scale wall sections ? is this possible ?

in the spirit of leaving bread crumbs for others to follow - i have uploaded my project file testing Aaron's method.

thank you for your input -

[mchaney]

Aaron -

Taking my test project to the next step - I am attempting to create a multi-category schedule that will schedule both the 'curtain walls' and any conventional 'windows' that may also be in the project.

What i am realizing is that multi-category schedules cannot include walls. Also - if your multi-category schedule includes windows, it will also schedule ALL curtain wall panels individually. You can filter to exclude these - however there is still no way to schedule the curtain wall as a single instance.

So if one is to use this approach - ALL windows on the project need to be built as curtain walls.... This may prove difficult if not impossible for some window types. To schedule them, one would use a wall schedule (filtered to exclude actual walls).

Alternately, one could have 2 separate schedules. A conventional 'window schedule' for conventional windows (filtered to exclude curtain wall panels) and a 'curtain wall schedule' for curtain walls (filtered to exclude actual walls.)

Can anyone offer insight into this ?

[aaronrumple]

if it didn't throw the schedule off by 1.... it would be nice to place an extra instance of each 'group type' off in the distance somewhere to simplify creating the fake legend plan and elevation views. if you could set an instance parameter for the group you could filter these out.... any thoughts on how to trick the schedule into not seeing these extra instances ?
You can. One of the simplest ways is to just use a "Management" phase in the project and place it before Existing. When you create a shedule, you select a phase - so those items in the "Management" phase will be ignored. We've just dedicated a small "storade area" off to the side of the site for such things.

[aaronrumple]

Aaron -

What i am realizing is that multi-category schedules cannot include walls. Also - if your multi-category schedule includes windows, it will also schedule ALL curtain wall panels individually. You can filter to exclude these - however there is still no way to schedule the curtain wall as a single instance.

So if one is to use this approach - ALL windows on the project need to be built as curtain walls.... This may prove difficult if not impossible for some window types. To schedule them, one would use a wall schedule (filtered to exclude actual walls).

Alternately, one could have 2 separate schedules. A conventional 'window schedule' for conventional windows (filtered to exclude curtain wall panels) and a 'curtain wall schedule' for curtain walls (filtered to exclude actual walls.)

Can anyone offer insight into this ?
We don't schedule storefronts. They are drawn as types and dimensioned. Windows are scheduled. We keep them separate as they are different vendors and spec sections.

If you have to schedule them, I would bet that your contractor and suppliers would rather have two separate schedules rather than one.