REVIT collaboration between multiple offices

[Chirag Mistry]

We are trying to collaborate between two of our offices to work on this big project. We have done this typically with ADT and this is the first one we are trying with REVIT. I wanted to get some of your thoughts, experiences on this before I pitch this plan.

The plan:

Both offices have their own central files and they are synchronized overnight using a WAN.
Office 1: works on core and shell
Office 2: interiors + lab

Thanks in advance.

[cphubb]

2 ways to handle this and how you go about it will depend on your organization.

1. The ADT way - Link the lab model(s) into the core/shell model and have those people produce the views etc. Also one could create a "master" that both link their files into but I think this creates too much management which is why we dropped ADT/ACAD anyway.

2. The Revit way. Clearly define and create the worksets necessary for each group to work on their portion of the model. Each person will open only the worksets necessary for their current assignment and leave out what they do not need. This will speed open and save to central, but since the real work is happening locally the speed drop will probably be less. Since Revit does not have any administrative functions built in to the worksets they will need to be managed by someone. If in am not mistaken this is the way SOM did the Freedom Tower.

We almost always use method 2 even though we do not have multiple offices, our models get rather large and reducing the number of worksets opened by people helps with the speed issue.
It also helps with the management issue. If Bob is not opening the Windows workset he cannot accidentally draw in it.

[DaveP]

Revit uses a UNC name for the Central File, so you can't cheat it by using the same drive letter in both offices. That'd be a mess to try & copy a file around, anyway. Unless each office works in a separate project and you Link them together, you'll need to have one office working across the WAN to wherever the Central File is located.

We've got a Steelhead network appliance between our offices. It compresses, caches and optimizes WAN traffic and can significantly speed up access. We've done some testing with it (ACAD2002 was unworkable) and we've seen about 20% slower open & save times. Haven't done a full-on 8-hour day project across the WAN yet, but our hour of testing was on a copy of a real (35 meg) project.

[Scott D Davis]

The 'split' Central file at both locations wont work, even if it is syncronized overnight. Which one is sycronized to the other? Office 1 does work throughout the day and does Save to Central (STC) on their central file. Office 2 works and STC's to their central. Now both Centrals are different, with no way to "mesh" the changes between them into one file. Sync'ing across the network is always going to overwrite one or the other's central file.

[cphubb]

Revit uses a UNC name for the Central File, so you can't cheat it by using the same drive letter in both offices. That'd be a mess to try & copy a file around, anyway. Unless each office works in a separate project and you Link them together, you'll need to have one office working across the WAN to wherever the Central File is located.

We've got a Steelhead network appliance between our offices. It compresses, caches and optimizes WAN traffic and can significantly speed up access. We've done some testing with it (ACAD2002 was unworkable) and we've seen about 20% slower open & save times. Haven't done a full-on 8-hour day project across the WAN yet, but our hour of testing was on a copy of a real (35 meg) project.

Dave,

It seems that with any NAT router and a modern networking system the central file can live just fine at any UNC path. If the open save process is managed properly even if the central file moves the works case is to recreate the local files for all users. A bit of a PITA but not a huge time waster.
To solve the bandwidth problem make sure to only open worksets you need, if you bring site structural mechanical furniture etc you will have really slow open and save times.
I have been working on a local file through VPN over a cable and dsl connection. Opens are around 1min and save to central is around 3min. Saves to local are same 30sec or so. When I try to open the whole model from the central over the Cable it can take 10 minutes, so I do not do that.
I would hope that offices with a true WAN have more bandwidth than my house does T3 or better and the open save times may be in the 1min range for the entire model. Not bad really since you only save to central every 2-6 hours or so. Revit backs up the local files so data loss is really scarce, but if the connection goes down worksets go to "at risk" so there may be data loss there.

[mcloer]

We have tested Remote Desktop built into XP and it works very well. I know I heard of some other companies using it as well. You don't have to worry about tranferring all of that data over the WAN

The down side is it requires more hardware.

[cosmickingpin]

Scott,
I think he means that the two central files will be cross linked, A file will be linked into B file and so forth. So two central files with links updated over night.



The 'split' Central file at both locations wont work, even if it is syncronized overnight. Which one is sycronized to the other? Office 1 does work throughout the day and does Save to Central (STC) on their central file. Office 2 works and STC's to their central. Now both Centrals are different, with no way to "mesh" the changes between them into one file. Sync'ing across the network is always going to overwrite one or the other's central file.

[christopher.zoog51272]

We have a similar situation with a massive new Revit project that is about to kick off, only we have to coordinate Revit data with no less than 5 offices spread across the globe, with each location responsible for different portions of the project (core, shell, slab, interiors, structural, etc). Add to that extremely tight security requirements, and you have a real pickle. It hasn't been completely figured out yet. Several options are being considered, including steelhead appliances over wan, remote desktop connections to single location, and multiple linked files with extensive use of copy/monitor.

I RDP into my office workstation all the time via an SSL VPN connection and it's really just like being there, no lag and great refresh rates. However, this solution requires dedicated hardware at both locations.

Personally, I feel that cross-linked files with enhanced copy/monitor use is the best option. You may want to look further at that approach. Let's hope we see some copy/monitor improvements in the near future.

When a conclusion is reached, I will be sure to post back

[Drafting Stooge]

We have tried on occassion to collaborate between remote offices. The biggest problem we have had is the allocation of the project into worksets. As long as there is an understanding between offices as to the respective responsibilities, then most of the problems are solved.
Our one biggest problem has been using WAN between offices and the download/upload rates saving to a remote central location.
I don't even pretend to understand the hardware issues - that is way outside of my comfort zone and moving into the black arts of IT - but that seems to be the major issue between remote location coordination.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the structure is there to support inter-office communication, then the real issues come down to project management.

[danny.ferguson]

We use Remote Desktop for large projects across offices. Works very well. The only down side is dedicating extra machines on the site with the Central File. But since we use this approach regularly on several projects, the dedicated machines get a lot of use. This also allows you to use less robust machines on the remote end.
We also never use worksets - we've found they cause many more problems than they solve.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

We also never use worksets - we've found they cause many more problems than they solve.

Danny,
Just out of curiosity, are you saying you never use worksets as a method of sharing between offices or never use them period? If it's the latter, what issues have you found with worksets?

[danny.ferguson]

We never use them - period. We used them 3 years ago when we started using Revit as our default platform but were constantly having trouble with users accidentally placing objects in incorrect worksets and objects in one workset trying to alter objects in worksets checked out by other users, generating the "Permission" message. Since objects are checked out on the fly now, we never need them. Our largest project now is 120 megs, 300 sheets shared between 3 offices across the country (Remote Desktop). It is common for us to have 8 people in the architectural model concurrently. We very, very rarely get a permission message. The only worksets in the model are the ones automatically set up by Revit. Keep it simple.

[jhanby]

We are working with another firm, out of state and transfering data over an ftp site, on a quite large building. They are assigned to do the schematic design and we are assigned to do the construction documents. So for the design development phase we are looking for a way to be able to both work on the building in assigned separate areas. Would it possible to keep the central file on the ftp site or do we need to look into WAN or Remote desktop? Any information would be appricated.

What they wanted to do was to separate the building and then merge them at construction documents however we found out that is not possible. We are working in version 9.1.

[Scott D Davis]

we found out that is not possible. We are working in version 9.1.

Can you both upgrade to 2008? if so, you can both work in separate models, and then link/bind them into one project later.

[jhanby]

Can you both upgrade to 2008? if so, you can both work in separate models, and then link/bind them into one project later.

So it is possible to bind two drawings in Revit 2008? My bosses hadn't planned on upgrading however if it is possible to bind two separate drawings together with 2008 they might have to consider it. :)

[Steve_Stafford]

...We never use them - period...Since objects are checked out on the fly now, we never need them...So to be technical...you ARE using them, just not defining any more than those Revit creates by default. There is no way for muliple users to collaborate on the same project data without invoking worksets. Just clarifying so a new users doesn't get completely turned around on this part of the discussion.

[truevis]

So it is possible to bind two drawings in Revit 2008? My bosses hadn't planned on upgrading however if it is possible to bind two separate drawings together with 2008 they might have to consider it. :)

One can Link in a project, then bind it and turn it into a Group. The Group can then be Ungrouped. (Nothing to do with "drawings" per se.)

[luigi]

One can Link in a project, then bind it and turn it into a Group. The Group can then be Ungrouped. (Nothing to do with "drawings" per se.)

Has binding actually work for you? I have tried a couple of times, when the project wasn't too complicated, and it wouldn't work, even after more than an hour....

[DaveP]

Has binding actually work for you? I have tried a couple of times, when the project wasn't too complicated, and it wouldn't work, even after more than an hour....

We've had mixed success with Binding as well. One of our projects is a 350,000 sq ft hospital. It's split into a Shell and an Interior model. The Shell is almost 60 Meg. Interior is about 100. We've been able to Bind other smaller projects, but this one won't Bind anymore. Last time I let it run for 3 1/2 hours & once it finally finished, I couldn't see anything.

[jhanby]

One can Link in a project, then bind it and turn it into a Group. The Group can then be Ungrouped. (Nothing to do with "drawings" per se.)

Sorry about the "drawings" term, still so used to AutoCAD. Have to remember its "model". :) We have decided to go the copy/monitor way since the other firm doesn't want to share access to the central file at this time.

[Brian Myers]

Have to remember its "model". :)

Technically, I don't even care for the word Model. I'm still looking for a term like CDI (Construction Document Information) that can be used to describe what a Revit...or really any true BIM environment... file should be called. It's often more than a Building, it doesn't always need to be Modeled, the one constant is the "I" Information... it's the only thing that really matters (and the organization, coordination, and communication of that information). :beer:

[Dupont]

Can you both upgrade to 2008? if so, you can both work in separate models, and then link/bind them into one project later.

Is it possible to collaborate sucesessfully with a different architect on the same central file? Scope of work for each office has not been defined at the moment. Both offices want to be able to work as if we were one architect in one office.

[ajayholland]

This desire adds the complication of network accessibility. Most firms do not allow but limited outside access to their file servers, for obvious reasons.

~AJH

[Scott D Davis]

Is it possible to collaborate sucesessfully with a different architect on the same central file? Scope of work for each office has not been defined at the moment. Both offices want to be able to work as if we were one architect in one office.

Possible? Yes, but will work best if eveyone is on the same LAN. The other Architect could work through Remote Desktop, runnning Revit from the Host and opening a local copy of the Central file on a Host computer.

There have been other discussions here about WAN based services using Riverbed or other WAN accelerators.

You will not be able to collaborate with one Architect working on his network, and the second on his own network, if you want to work on the same model. you could however use Linked files that are shared by exchanging them on a Buzzsaw or FTP site.

[tom166738]

We use Remote Desktop for large projects across offices. Works very well. The only down side is dedicating extra machines on the site with the Central File. But since we use this approach regularly on several projects, the dedicated machines get a lot of use. This also allows you to use less robust machines on the remote end.
We also never use worksets - we've found they cause many more problems than they solve.

Hi Danny

I'm a little confused if you are using Remote Desktop would'nt the central file be located at your head office?

[mile18man]

Scott,

Similar question. End goal for our firm is to make use of cloud or server capability to enable easy, fast remote access to a central Revit model.

Short term goal is to manage this model without cloud or server capability, and allow remote user access to edit select portions of this model. Are there ways in which 2D linework (for example) can be detached from wall sections and edited independently of the central model, or are there ways in which there can be copies made of the central model to allow remote editing, with these copies then being re-combined with the central model in some way (cut-and-paste approach)?

Sorry for such base level questioning, but any information you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!