Skyscraper Design

[morganp]

Has anyone fully modelled a 35-to-100 story curtainwall building using Revit?

If so, please respond.

If not, do you believe it can be done?

Over.

[cosmickingpin]

I hear that freedom tower is pretty tall.


Has anyone fully modelled a 35-to-100 story curtainwall building using Revit?

If so, please respond.

If not, do you believe it can be done?

Over.

[Paul Monsef]

If not, do you believe it can be done?

Over.
Yes!

Over. kshhhhhht.

[morganp]

Ok,

Based on some other user's comments, it sounds like workgroups may be the key to modelling extremely tall buildings in Revit.

Also, our product distributors mentioned that SOM has divided the "Freedom Tower" into multiple models. Supposedly these get connected up in a master file.

I tried to model a 35-story curtain wall using copied groups. The skin was grouped either by floors, or by halves.

In each case, I crashed the computer.

[Scott D Davis]

did you create a support request to find out why the program crashed?

[AP23]

Was the curtain wall of the freedom tower made with the curtain wall tool, a complete custom made curtain wall family or a generic family embedded in a curtain wall panel?

Also, do you have any reference of the main building when you work separately on a curtain wall in a separate file?

[sbrown]

Yes, you can link the struct system and the core files into the curtain wall model. There curtain wall was actually made of a generic model family with parameters to control and study the shape.

I think families will be better for taller towers, the curtain wall tool is great but can get sluggish. For anything that repeats multiple times families seem easier to work with and assemble.

[Wes Macaulay]

The Freedom Tower curtain wall was (I believe) a series of custom-made generic model families...

[MikeJarosz]

I worked on the basements (all 64 acres of them). If you've seen ground zero, you know what I am talking about. That whole hole has to be filled. Never got my head above ground, so I can't tell you about the exterior wall. James V. or Phil R. know more about that. There were lots of modelling innovations.

We started out with the entire building in one model, but we had so many on the team that STC became an issue. We finally did split it up for that reason. Remember, we started on 6.0

We are starting another massive tower in Korea, so I would say that our senior management are impressed enough with the Freedom tower experience that they are willing to commit to another
major project with Revit .

By the way, we have some smaller projects in Revit too.

[christopher.zoog51272]

I will add that the "massive tower in Korea" Mike refers to is slated to be the second tallest in the world, and it's geometry is at least as complicated as the original freedom tower design. It's currently using several instances of a complex family driven by even more complex formulas, to create it's "curtain wall"

-Z

[MikeJarosz]

Forgot something: Yes Revit can do a tower! And you know something, I dont think a tower is nearly as complicated as a hospital or some other building types. Especially if the design is simple. I have seen 45 story towers with 37 arch sheets.

For all the towers I have done, I have never done a single family house. For me, that would be really hard.

[ejburrell67787]

I will add that the "massive tower in Korea" Mike refers to is slated to be the second tallest in the world, and it's geometry is at least as complicated as the original freedom tower design. It's currently using several instances of a complex family driven by even more complex formulas, to create it's "curtain wall"

-ZHey Chris, how's the new job going? :razz: Plenty of complex families driven by complex formulae to keep you busy and happy? ;)

[morganp]

The Freedom Tower seems to have a fairly zipped-up skin.

But:


How would a tower designer handle curtain wall interruptions, such as balcony slabs?

Also, how would one model a convex curtain wall on Revit (with slab penetrations)?

And, how do you handle terraces with guardrails attached to parapets using Revit?


In the design of high-rise, curtain wall condominiums, these issues all unfold.

[cosmickingpin]

Are you asking how would one architecturally detail the curtain wall system? I think you would need to work with the manufacturer to develop any non-standard details.
1. I would model the Curtain Wall system to allow for openings and interuptions such as balcony slabs.
2. I would model a massing object(including slab penetrations) with the convex shape I desired, then apply a curtain system. Keep the massing object handy for later modifications, and you should be able to do anything.
3. I would model railings atop the parapets. Nothing tricky about it.


The Freedom Tower seems to have a fairly zipped-up skin.
But:
How would a tower designer handle curtain wall interruptions, such as balcony slabs?
Also, how would one model a convex curtain wall on Revit (with slab penetrations)?
And, how do you handle terraces with guardrails attached to parapets using Revit?
In the design of high-rise, curtain wall condominiums, these issues all unfold.

[AP23]

Since we are on the curtain wall topic, how would you model this curtain wall (see attachment)? It may not qualify as a curtain wall but I guess you can model the curtain panels using a wall style profile and a window embedded in it. The organic shape can be modeled outside of Revit and brought in as a mass. The problems would be the overlapping panels. Can you overlap panels in a curtain system

[mmodernc]

Hmm obviously distorted to follow the sun and subtly encourage convection.

[Wes Macaulay]

If you overlap the masses, then so will the curtain walls as you skin them onto the panels. You could model it in Revit using blends -- no problem I should think.

[Wes Macaulay]

It's currently using several instances of a complex family driven by even more complex formulas, to create it's "curtain wall"

-ZSo who does the formulas at SOM? Don't suppose you could post just one formula and explain what it does? just for interest's sake? This stuff fascinates me: I think it's so cool that you can use a blackboard full of math in a Revit family!

[morganp]

Yes . . . who are the math wizards that came up with that one!



I once worked with a 50-something architect who (over-and-over again) used to complain, "C'mon, it's not rocket science . . . c'mon, it's not rocket science . . ."



Maybe it is?

[MikeJarosz]

So who does the formulas at SOM? Don't suppose you could post just one formula and explain what it does? just for interest's sake? This stuff fascinates me: I think it's so cool that you can use a blackboard full of math in a Revit family!
Neil Katz at SOM came up with the original geometry. James Vandezande posted it here on 9/30/04. But it's worth reposting for the many people who have asked since.

Basically, the original design was a corrugated prism of triangles. It's not terribly hard for an architect to do a geometric diagram showing how the shapes relate to each other. Here it is:



The first formulas define the prisms. The second solves for a and b. One of the engineers on the project has a background in math. He used MathCad to solve Neil's equations, coming up with the second, admittedly complex computation. But, hey! that's what computers do best: compute.

As Chris Ceccatto of Gehry Technology said to us a few weeks ago, "the aircraft industry does this every day"

[MikeJarosz]

Here is a roof plan(!) of the original design. It was posted here a couple of years ago. Look down the twisted, sloping exterior wall to see the effect of the pleats that resulted from the analysis above.

Don't get too excited. This is the design that was discarded.

[Wes Macaulay]

Don't suppose you could post the RFA that went along with this? Not that we're likely to understand it ;-)

[dhurtubise]

Hey Wes, i would be willing to take a shot at it, already got my math book aside :-), wouldn't you ?