Revit-Timberline Cost Estimating Tool

[Scott D Davis]

Check it out! Sounds very cool!

http://www.aecbytes.com/buildingthefuture/2006/VisualEstimating.html

Keeps the Revit model moving into construction, unlike the ArchiCAD solution which causes the contractor to REBUILD an entirely new model.

[dbaldacchino]

Keeps the Revit model moving into construction, unlike the ArchiCAD solution which causes the contractor to REBUILD an entirely new model.
Welllll but since ArchiCad can also export to IFC, this same software could be used with an IFC outputted from ArchiCad :)

[Scott D Davis]

Welllll but since ArchiCad can also export to IFC, this same software could be used with an IFC outputted from ArchiCad :)
.....but Graphisoft has recently released a new product called Constructor which is an estimating/scheduling/takeoff tool. They actually tout as a "benefit" to their product the fact that the contractor has to rebuild the entire model over again. The 3D model built in ArchiCAD by the architect cannot be carried over into Constructor. (or rather it "could" but would not yield accurate results because the models need to be 'different')

But, yes, through IFC they could use this Innovaya (http://www.innovaya.com/) solution, although the website of the company that makes the tool says it only works with Revit and ADT at this point.

[dhurtubise]

Anybody got the IFC website link around ?

[christo4robin]

I've long that that it was a hole in architectural services to not leverage cad data to provide preliminary cost estimates. I understand that BSD (www.bsdsoftlink.com) is also developing a Revit into CostLink tool, but it sounds like that still a little ways out. That solution is based on RS Means cost data, which, according to one contractor I spoke with, sounds like it is not that great of a cost database. Anybody have any experience with it?

Anyone using any of these estimating tools with success?

[bob.parker]

I worked on this in beta with both Timberlind and the developer... awsome application!

[iru69]

Anybody got the IFC website link around ?
http://www.iai-international.org

[hand471037]

After working for a place that was looking at doing cost estimation tools out of Revit, it seems that lots of contractors, esp. the big ones, all have their own ways of pricing things and thier own cost databases.

For example, one contractor might bid all the concrete out to subs, but do the framing themselves for they can do that better or cheaper or something. Another might do the complete opposite on the very same job for their bid.

So it seemed a lot more viable to make tools that allowed a contractor to tie costs into the BIM models rather than trying to 'embed' costs into the BIM models. Things like this Timberline toolset are better fits to the market IMHO, for it's going to allow the contractor to work with a trusted tool and dataset for costing out a project, now they just have a better/faster way to generate the counts in the first place...

[blads]

Slightly off topic: overhere a product called CostX (http://www.exactal.com/products/range/costx.php) has been "popping up" as a new costing standard for contractors, quantity surveyors, designers and architects.

Whilst it has got a nice little CostX/Revit Demo (http://www.exactal.com/products/range/costx.php?s=26) - it appears it actually interegates the Revit drawing after conversion to a dwg file.

It is been featured on information that'll be part of the A'desk 2007 Products launch - so I'll report back later...

[sjsl]

What's inteteresting here is "Visual estimating" appears as a spinoff of 3dDWF file formats. It looks and feels the same with even better enhancements. I have had our estimators in our company look at and try to use the raw data out of the 3dDWF files and they are amazed at what they see even if they are old guys.

I have been showing more and more of our GC's the Revit models and even the Microsoft Access project concept estimating program we created thru odbc export of the Revit model. We can setup a mix of actual data, line item lump sums, fees, etc. It will even update with just a couple of mouse clicks. We have put our own costs into our template files. So far it works great!

[dbaldacchino]

.....They actually tout as a "benefit" to their product the fact that the contractor has to rebuild the entire model over again. The 3D model built in ArchiCAD by the architect cannot be carried over into Constructor. (or rather it "could" but would not yield accurate results because the models need to be 'different')

Geez, now if that's not a tiny bit arrogant on Graphisoft's side, I don't know what is! Granted that architects are not experts of all construction methods available, but they have a pretty darn good idea of how a building comes together, right? In my experience, we have missed a few details here and there, but when we knew that something that we were trying to achieve was complex, we thought about it seriously, talked to constructors and detailed it right. So I guess if we modeled it, it should have been good enough for estimating. Maybe not all the necessary information is embedded in our models, but we all know how much contractors fudge numbers. You miss a door, and it's $X to add. You need to take one out because you don't need it, and the credit to the owner comes back at about $X/10!!

I hope this is just a lame excuse on G's side instead of their true feelings, because I think they're just trying to either sell another software package, or they can't get enough info. out of their model. But then, looking at it from another perspective, it's good that someone else is re-modeling your design intent. That's what our current traditional 2D process is meant to achieve, although it's not always successful. Estimating....it's more of a dark art than a science I guess!

[dpollard909366]

I just attended a webcast from Innovaya, and I must say that I am intrigued. We are an architecture/development/construction firm and the capabilities to monitor our costs throughout the design with the revit model could be invaluable. Also the fact that it is a separate program allows our research, contract, and cost people can directly benefit and analyze our revit model without even having to open revit.

The Timberline part of it seems a little trickier than the simple interface that Innovaya uses to extract quantities, etc., but for the amount of data it is manipulating, it seems wprth it.

Some of our people had concerns about potential human error in double counting some quantities with the Timberline application. Another feature that is lacking is in the ability to have templates for organizing data, and setting colors for viewing components in future projects. We might see it in the next release.

There is also a 4d part which analyzes components assigned to tasks on a project schedule. This part seems in its infancy, but the potential is tremendous.

Christopher had an interesting point in architects starting to leverage the data in a revit model. I appreciate the optimistic attitude, because my fear is that in a traditional architect situation, the builder benefits from the data, limits his liability, increases his efficiency, and the architect gets left in the dust. I like the other perspective that the architect is able to take more control of the building, and limit the builder error. We just need to be able to recoup those fees.

I think that we are going to do some testing with it in one of our projects, so I will keep you guys updated.

[david.kingham]

It's a great program, we've been beta testing for a long time now and I'm very excited about it. We will be using it on the first real project in the next couple weeks

[wjspence]

David,

My company, Parsons, uses Timberline. At present they integrate with an Intergaph software application for large engineering jobs, but since those of us that do Architecture prefer Revit I am curious how well Timberline has worked out for cost takeoffs?

Thanks,

Bill Spence
Parsons
Austin, TX