Revit 9 Keynote index query

[trombe]

Hi,
this is really a query to some of the more expert kiwi users...

I have just received 9 and now spent about 30 minutes reviewing the keynotes toolset and some help notes, so I am far from having all of the information on recall.
Also, I am brand new to the CBI Masterspec indexing system as promulgated by NZCIC ( and Construction Information Ltd), so checking all of the downloads about how it is structured and looking at what Revit has on board out of the box is a lot of information to try and disseminate in 30 minutes.

Firstly, thanks to AutoDesk for making happen, what appears to be a sterling job of the set up of the keynote system as it applies to the NZ market. I can see quickly that the CBI index is true to the docs from NZCIC that I am reviewing now. That should mean a correct and consistent approach to the specification ( if you use Masterspec that makes it much easier). Thanks also for what appears to be a great release in 9 with several things I can use immediately (apart from Keynotes).

Now, to you kiwi users, do I take it that the keynote file as seen out of the box, has the complete CBI indexed system of Level 1 Classes, Level 2 Groups, Level 3 Sub Groups and Level 4 Work Sections...is it the complete listing ? (as there are many numberings at level 4 missing from the sequence..is this deliberate to make room for more divisions later as time goes by ?

If this is so, then I assume we take it that we will data entry in a tab delimited file, the additional sub - sub categories ( effectively a level 5 or a sub part /addendum to level 4)

I have a few other queries about some of the listings like 74-97 Cleaning, repairing and renovating existing plumbing and drainage systems......how to mark this from work of same type but of new construction as the index does not seem to delineate new form existing in this manner.....
Perhaps more reading will clarify this as there are a few others.

thanks for any light that can be shed on this.
If this works out the way it appears it can in the docs and playing around for a few minutes only, and bearing in mind that future development will probably improve this toolset , I think the use of this toolset is likely to change the way I do my drawings irrevocably from this release forward and that looks to be a good thing for productivity.

The only thing that lingers as a slight concern is that in the work I do (mainly custom residential and light commercial), contractors and consent officers are likely to be resistant to having to check what all those little boxed numbers mean against the Keynote Legend elsewhere in the drawing set, when they are used to dealing with more detailed descriptions next to the relevant detail or drawing. (this includes still using descriptive text , but just a lot less of it)

thanks for your help
regards
trombe

[Gene Herring]

I too am taking a similar look at this feature. My question is are there 'CSI" and or "Uniformat" based versions of the keynotes available? I would like to better integrate with construction cost data sources here in the US which generally map to CSI, Uniformat, or both. Also adding to Trombe's comments, how modifiable is the keynotes file as long as the format is held harmless. Is the factory's intent here to give the end user more flexibility by being able to load different keynotes files and map to cost data, etc. as you wish??? This could open an infinite world of data mapping possibilities without the need for API programming. Thoughts anyone?

[dgreen.49364]

My company has used the CSI keynoting system for years, long before we started using Revit. The problems we have encountered prior to Revit are still there with Revit. In theory, CSI keynoting is a great idea, in practice it is a bit more difficult. There are just too many times when things do not fall within the CSI format. Demolition is another situation altogether. We have had people who have tried to apply CSI kenoting to demolition. It has been my experience that it doesn't work very well with demolition, so we use old fashioned text notes for demolition.

The approach that we have tried to take with CSI keynoting is to apply those keynotes to specific items of construction, and to use text notes for anything that has us scratching our heads over whether it is a real keynotable item.

The nice thing about the keynoting feature in 9.0 is the use of a .txt file. How perfect is that? Seems to me that it can modified any way one chooses.

[Gene Herring]

Thanks for the info Trombe and DGreen, I will keep you guys posted on what I come up with.

[bimologist]

Hi,


If this is so, then I assume we take it that we will data entry in a tab delimited file, the additional sub - sub categories ( effectively a level 5 or a sub part /addendum to level 4)

I think you can tier the TREE easily beyond 4 , not tested , but I think

The Schema is this
10000 MAIN SECTION
11000 SUB SECTION1TO MAIN SECTION 10000<MAIN SECTION NUMBER>
11100 SUB SECTION11 TO SUB SECTION1 11000
11110 SUB SECTION111 TO SUB SECTION11 11100
I take you get the idea.




The only thing that lingers as a slight concern is that in the work I do (mainly custom residential and light commercial), contractors and consent officers are likely to be resistant to having to check what all those little boxed numbers mean against the Keynote Legend elsewhere in the drawing set, when they are used to dealing with more detailed descriptions next to the relevant detail or drawing. (this includes still using descriptive text , but just a lot less of it)


WE do it this way you will need TWO KEYNOTE SCHEDULE objects. ONE the WHOLE LIST the other that is SHEET SPECIFIC (when you customize it there is a CHECK BOX for it.
in the front of the SET we LIST ALL THE KEYNOTES (our keynotes are all project specific so we do not have 10million) then one each sheet you will place the other schedule that is sheet specific and as soon as you ADD a view it will update with more info if that view has any KN.



how modifiable is the keynotes file as long as the format is held harmless. Is the factory's intent here to give the end user more flexibility by being able to load different keynotes files and map to cost data, etc. as you wish???


The Keynote file is modifiable if you follow the schema correctly, as I explained above. each project can have its own TXT file. Since we do such varying work each project has its own Keynote file in ADT (yah that word)



My company has used the CSI keynoting system for years, long before we started using Revit. The problems we have encountered prior to Revit are still there with Revit. In theory, CSI keynoting is a great idea, in practice it is a bit more difficult. There are just too many times when things do not fall within the CSI format. Demolition is another situation altogether. We have had people who have tried to apply CSI kenoting to demolition. It has been my experience that it doesn't work very well with demolition, so we use old fashioned text notes for demolition.

we do not use Keynoting for Demo, only for materials. Demolition we use Hex Notes since they are directions more than items to purchase.


Hope this helps

[GuyR]

Now, to you kiwi users, do I take it that the keynote file as seen out of the box, has the complete CBI indexed system of Level 1 Classes, Level 2 Groups, Level 3 Sub Groups and Level 4 Work Sections...is it the complete listing ? (as there are many numberings at level 4 missing from the sequence..is this deliberate to make room for more divisions later as time goes by ?

As per CBI and Masterspec you are allowed to add your own work sections. So the file is editable. Note you have to restart Revit to make it available though.

HTH,

Guy

[trombe]

thanks for the comments everyone.
cheers
trombe

[ford347]

So when modifying, would it be suggested to modify the existing CSI file by actually adding user items beneath the structure in which that item might belong under the existing CSI structure? Or would it be better to start a User Section as Revit suggests (00), and duplicate the CSI structure so you can keep your notes organized, and just keep all added text under this section? One way I don't think you could keep track of what was added and what came with Revit, the other seems like a lot of work. I don't know? Any suggestions? My first though would be to just copy the file so you always have an original, then just add things to the existing tier structure so you don't have to create it all over again?

[christo4robin]

FWIW,

I use a copy of the original file, add my customized notes to it using the format the Revit crew came up with (the ".A1, L3" etc. with specific text following).

[ford347]

That's what I've started doing, the only thing I'm running into now is what is determining what alphabetic order these items are going in, or is this just a random method for separating categories under the divisional tier?

[christo4robin]

I think that the alphabetic order is just random. Been struggling with this myself. It also sucks that the keynote definition remembers the number. So, if you change the number (to get things in the order you want after you've added a few items) you have to manually update any affected elements, materials etc.

[bimologist]

I think that the alphabetic order is just random. Been struggling with this myself. It also sucks that the keynote definition remembers the number. So, if you change the number (to get things in the order you want after you've added a few items) you have to manually update any affected elements, materials etc.
The number is pushed into the element or material if you use to add it using Element or Material, The user one will not push the number into the item. hence a free floating note tied to an object , which cannot be a model or detail line which sucks, cause you cannot keynote a detail built up of lines and detail components, you can keynote the detail component, but not the lines.
Hence you cannot keynote imported autocad details either, unless you bring in the whole detail as a detail component

[ford347]

Changing gears a little.....
I have built up quite a bit in the keynote database and it is working nicely.

I like to use the boxed and numbered keynotes on plan views and larger sections, but when I get down to a detail view or a detailed wall section, I prefer to use text. I do this because being one who spent most of my days reading plans and having to build what was on them, I find this to be a little easier to digest in the field as you are going along. Regardless, my problem is that when I place the keynote legend on the sheet, all the keynotes show up in the legend, which I'm not suprised, but I dont want them too. I have some details, walls sections and plan views on one sheet, which means I have text keynotes and boxed keynotes on the same sheet.

Is there a way to only get the keynotes that were boxed to show up in the legend and not the text keynotes? This gets extremely redundant.

Thanks
Josh

[bimologist]

[QUOTE=ford347]Changing gears a little.....


Is there a way to only get the keynotes that were boxed to show up in the legend and not the text keynotes? This gets extremely redundant.

Thanks
Josh[/QUOTE

If you had said can I get only the keynotes on the Sheet to show up, and not EVERYTHING in your file , I would have said yes you can, I think what you are asking is not possible at this time as there is no way to filter the legend based on text vs numbered.