Keynotes... very disappointed

[gibson.tim91884]

I was so excited when I heard that there was going to be a keynoting tool in R9. Now that I've tried it, I have to say I'm very disappointed.

1. Hello??? A text file? Don't we have things like databases and xml in the modern world? This is my main gripe. Editing this is painful! And what happens to existing keynotes when you change a keynote in the text file? Seemingly nothing.

2. Static numbering. What if I want to add a note to the file and keep the numbering sane?

3. No ability to add keynotes to the master file on the fly. If I need to add a new one, I have to stop what I'm doing, see what keynote file is being used, find it, edit it, and then place the keynote. WTF??? Was somebody sitting in the dumb chair when they worked through this? (oh! oh! I know! it was an intern!)

4. 16 division standard... I know, I know. "Everybody" they asked said that was preferred. I think that's a cop-out.

Hopefully this doesn't make anyone too upset. I mean this with the best of intentions (really). But I used to teach programming, and this is the type of design I'd expect in a first semester intro to programming course. The keynote tool really should not have been let into the wild in the state that it's in. Frankly, I think it's pathetic. Hopefully the next rendition is actually useful.

Sorry.

[Steve_Stafford]

...And what happens to existing keynotes when you change a keynote in the text file? Seemingly nothing...Keynotes remain linked to the table that they were created from as long as that table is the one the project is looking for. True for family content as well. The help file explains what happens if you use a different table for content and the project.

It would be very nice if the interface permitted adding to the table directly.

[gibson.tim91884]

...The help file explains what happens if you use a different table for content and the project.


Cool. I also discovered that you need to close and reopen the project for changes to the text file to show up in the project. Subtle, slow, and silly, but at least it's possible...

:beer:

[ita]

Tim, set up another (and different) text file in the Keynote folder. When upgrading the Project text file, switch to the "alternative" file, opening Keynoting in the Settings, then reopen the Project text file. The edited Project text file then activates in the project - without having to reboot! I have found that I can edit the text file in Excel and save as a tab delimited text file. A bit complicated but simpler than shutting every thing down and rebooting.

[dhurtubise]

1. Hello??? A text file? Don't we have things like databases and xml in the modern world? This is my main gripe. Editing this is painful! And what happens to existing keynotes when you change a keynote in the text file? Seemingly nothing.
Not anybody have Access or any other soft. Plus you don't need a class to use a txt file. Very intelligent choice. You can still use Excel if you want then save to a .txt file.


2. Static numbering. What if I want to add a note to the file and keep the numbering sane?
It's using CSI, check theyre website for more info on the numbering system


3. No ability to add keynotes to the master file on the fly. If I need to add a new one, I have to stop what I'm doing, see what keynote file is being used, find it, edit it, and then place the keynote. WTF??? Was somebody sitting in the dumb chair when they worked through this? (oh! oh! I know! it was an intern!)That i agree.


4. 16 division standard... I know, I know. "Everybody" they asked said that was preferred. I think that's a cop-out.CSI i said :-)

[Steve_Stafford]

You have to close the project and open it again so the keynoting data will refresh after making changes to the keynote table file.

Opening another project will show the new data in that file but not the one you already had open. There is no need to close Revit entirely to refresh, just the project you need the new data to be available for.

[brd]

We just installed Revit 9, and I've only looked at the new keynote format for a few minutes, but my first impression is disappointing. In our office, we set up our own keynote system all the way back in version 7. We basically created our own keynote family and put parameters in in the family to schedule them based on their sheet location as well as by instance. The keynotes are not tied to the component like this new system however. These new keynotes are essentially tags, while ours are independent families. The beauty of our system is that the same detail component may not always have the same keynote number. For example, a metal stud may be noted as 092216 if it's Non Structural Metal, but it may also be noted as 054000 if it is a structural metal stud. However, when detailing in Revit, it would be the same detail component, just with a different keynote. I realize this creates lots of extra coordination work for us since the keynotes are not tagged to the components, but it means less micromanaging in our detail components library.

So far, I haven't seen a whole lot of reason why we should switch over to the new keynote system, our old one is working fine.

[David Conant]

The beauty of our system is that the same detail component may not always have the same keynote number. For example, a metal stud may be noted as 092216 if it's Non Structural Metal, but it may also be noted as 054000 if it is a structural metal stud. However, when detailing in Revit, it would be the same detail component, just with a different keynote.
Go to Keynote tool,
Select User option,
Point at your object,
Select any keynote value you want from the table.
Repeat with the second object and point to a different keynote..

[modulor]

I've seen this tool before: Softdesk, ArchT, Dotsoft.
I liked the Dotsoft version the best because it was (as I recall) fairly easy to add notes on the fly, and it allowed keynoting dumb objects.

I'd like to be able to keynote linework, or items in a linked .dwg, or empty space even.

[neb1998]

Go to Keynote tool,
Select User option,
Point at your object,
Select any keynote value you want from the table.


Repeat with the second object and point to a different keynote..Thanks for the explanation david, that helps on a few issues i was having as well. Wasnt sure what the user option was for.

[ita]

You have to close the project and open it again so the keynoting data will refresh after making changes to the keynote table file..
. . . Steve, you can " engage" the file by opening and closing a different file in the Keynote folder - with out having to close the project!

[Steve_Stafford]

. . . Steve, you can " engage" the file by opening and closing a different file in the Keynote folder - with out having to close the project!Are you saying opening a Revit file that is in the same folder as the Keynote table file? Interesting, either way, File > Close followed by File > Open > Recent files is just as quick...depending on the size of the project. Good tip for a big project!

[david.kingham]

No No Steve, just have a second keynote file to open, so you go to Settings > Keynoting > Browse to the second file...Ok out, then redo this with your real keynote file and it will reload, much faster on a big project. :D

[mschroeder]

Hello??? A text file?

Had that same knee jerk reaction to the text file idea. But you know what; if a text file is sufficient then why complicate matters with XML or even worse another binary file format. It's very consistent with Revit - look at type catalogs.

With the new Identity tab for all materials, you have a very simple, comprehensive mechanism to manage this information.

I'm finding it useful for our exterior elevation material tagging. You can keynote materials from split face operations, and you can even drag the leader over different materials to query them. I'm warming up to it.

[tim.101799]

My big problem with this whole thing is the CSI keynote format. I personally don't like using keynotes of anysort on sections and details. But I do use them on plans. My problem with the CSI keynote format is that not enough information is on the drawings. This format only calls of what the material is, nothing about it's size or other properties. If I have a metal stud keynoted on a detail using this format the note will read "09250-metal studs" or something similar. But no information about the size / gauge of the stud, it's spacing, or other important information.

[ita]

Are you saying opening a Revit file that is in the same folder as the Keynote table file? Interesting, either way, File > Close followed by File > Open > Recent files is just as quick...depending on the size of the project. Good tip for a big project!Sorry Steve, did not pick up on this thread until now. What I am sayning is that you do not have to close the project file to activate the text file in Keynotes. If you have two text files with different names in the Keynote folder, open the second text file, go to "view" in >Settings>Keynote> - which sort of "embeds" the contents into the opened project file, then go back to the second text file with the changes (made in the text file itself or in Excel and saved as a tab delimited text file), and the edited text text file will open in the open project file with all the additional changes. Thus you do not have to close the project file or Revit!! - just swap files !!

Tust that is a little clearer.:beer:

[jcdecastro]

Keynotes could be better if you could reassign the CSI value to it. For example, if you want to change a chalkboard to a dry-erase board right now you have to delete the keynote tag and place another one.

Why not give us a lil equal sign button to click on (like when adding parameters) to change the what the keynote is pointing to?

[Steve_Stafford]

You can...just change the keynote value of the object you are tagging or click on the value in the tag.

[zenomail105021]

Quote From Previous Post: "But I used to teach programming, and this is the type of design I'd expect in a first semester intro to programming course. The keynote tool really should not have been let into the wild in the state that it's in. Frankly, I think it's pathetic."


How often must we be disappointed? Not just a little disappointed. Hell, nothing is exactly the way you want it. But, "gee, how could they possibly do this??!!" disappointed. Just another example of poor planning, programming and lack of creative insight. I've done a little programming myself and, ,just my opinion (I sincerely wish it were otherwise and would love to sing paean's to their efforts), but this is not an unusual slip which could be easily excused. It is endemic.

Bill Maddox

PS On a less serious note: Has anyone gotten into Paul Aubin's Revit book?. If so, would you recommend it? He did an absolutely marvelous job with ADT.

[bowlingbrad]

Why can't the factory put together an interface to handle the keynote text file? Is this asking too much? A simple tree view structure with add/remove/modify tools? Maybe even a merge tool? Maybe the programmers think this is too simple and boring. I guess I would like an interface for all of the text files revit uses.

This is my wish, and I'm sticking to it.

[JamesVan]

My big problem with this whole thing is the CSI keynote format. I personally don't like using keynotes of anysort on sections and details. But I do use them on plans. My problem with the CSI keynote format is that not enough information is on the drawings. This format only calls of what the material is, nothing about it's size or other properties. If I have a metal stud keynoted on a detail using this format the note will read "09250-metal studs" or something similar. But no information about the size / gauge of the stud, it's spacing, or other important information.
You can do this, you just need to either create materials and wall types for each possible combination of studs (guage+size+spacing) and then create the mutations in the wall types. Then add the matching keynotes (your customization) to the matching materials. Another alternative (if you're not tagging actual wall objects) is to just do the customized keynotes and use Keynote-User.

[Elmo]

Why can't the factory put together an interface to handle the keynote text file? Is this asking too much? A simple tree view structure with add/remove/modify tools? Maybe even a merge tool? Maybe the programmers think this is too simple and boring. I guess I would like an interface for all of the text files revit uses.

This is my wish, and I'm sticking to it.Not a bad wish actually ! It would especially be useful when it comes to catalogue files and keynoting !

[jcdecastro]

You can...just change the keynote value of the object you are tagging or click on the value in the tag.

That only works if your keynote numbering method is by keynote.

I am keynoting by sheet, I want the keynote to display a number (filter keynote legend by sheet and change the keynote numbering method to by sheet: i got that part) and the keynote legend to show a 'custom note' and/or be able to change the keynote text when keynoting by sheet.

Is this possible?

The only thing I can think of is to try editing the csi txt file and add a new listing for each project and adding the notes there.

The other issue is once I change the keynotes to "by sheet" It doesnt seem like I can change the note, all the fields are garyed out.

[jcdecastro]

ok I made a copy of the keynote txt file and edited it and it works great.
The only way I found that I can chnage the association of the keynote tag is to change the numbering to by keynote then change the association, then change back to by sheet.

Has anyone else got a work around?

I also came up with a way to organise project ketnotes in the standard keynote txt file.
In the CSI number column I placed the project number w/ a "." before it like .55029 hit tab then the project name,
for each keynote I then place a .01 (or maybe I should use 3 decimal places .001, .002 so that 999 keynotes would sort correctly) after the project number so it would look like

.55029(tab) Project 10
.55029.001 (tab) Type 1 Dry Erase Board (tab) .55029
.55029.002 (tab) Type 2 Dry Erase Board (tab) .55029
.55029.003 (tab) emergency shower (tab) .55029

What do you guys think?
******this only works well for 'by sheet' keynote numbering*********

[jcdecastro]

We are about to start a massive keynoting effort.
Does anyone have a better way or another way of utilizing R9 keynotes by sheet w/ custom notes and not CSI call outs?
Especially another way of editing the txt file.

[david_spehar]

We are about to start a massive keynoting effort.
Does anyone have a better way or another way of utilizing R9 keynotes by sheet w/ custom notes and not CSI call outs?
Especially another way of editing the txt file.

We're in the same boat. It seems this whole keynote thing is causing alot of people alot of angst. What about creating one keynote that says "material as required in size required" and we all go have a beer?

[guy.messick825831]

We are just beginning use of the keynote feature - and I find it quite flexible. The CSI format is simply what the package comes with - you can set it up any way you would like - it's a .txt file after all. We will have a combination of CSI based notes, along with standard text notation available as well - it will evolve rather quickly. Good Luck

Guy Messick
Director of Design Technology
TLCD Architecture
www.tlcd.com

[david_spehar]

I've been customizing the standard text file to the 16 division 2005 CSI sections that our office currently uses and it's going pretty well. I like the ability to select the keynote family type and make each note either a reference number or the text itself. I figure I'll deal with future flexibility (or lack of) to the new CSI format if/when we ever adopt it. Right now the keynote system is better that what we've been doing in the past.

[jcdecastro]

Glad to hear you are having sucess. We have implemented the R9 keynote and it works well. Except for adding/modifyiing notes. As I stated above we also do custom notes so we would welcome an editor, if not for all the txt files, then atleast for keynotes.

Editing the notes should be something the average user should be able to do and not worry about mistakes like tabbing two many times or not tabbing at all.

[jspartz]

I have a major problem with these keynotes. We need construction keynotes (ex. R1 for a type of roof), exterior finish keynotes (ex. 22 for Metal Fascia), and plan keynotes (ex. 3 for Sawcut existing slab). You can only choose one file for setting up keynotes. So, I must put all 3 numbering systems into one text file!!!?!!! and then how do I create a keynote legend? All I want is a simple tag with a leader that I can place anywhere and modify the text. Does anyone know how to do that?

[Shaun v Rooyen]

I don't understand what everyone is going on about with the text editor and tabs. The keynote text file is a deliminated text file which is easily open and edited in MS Exel.

We have customised our own keynote txt file to suite our standard construction documentation notes. As and when more notes are required each individual has been trained to do so. We use keynoting with great success and in both manners, tags with numbers(or balloons as known here) for all elevation annotation. Full Keynote text tags for sections and plan annotation.
When creating the keynote legend/schedule remember to untick the "itemize every instance" under Sorting and Grouping and then the "filter by sheet" on the filter Tab.

KEYNOTES ROCK!!!!!!!

[3dsketcher]

i attempted keynoting before and got confused on what the best way is. now im revisiting it and i started editing the RevitKeynotes_Imperial.txt to add

0 Division 00 - BRB User Defined
100 Plan Keynotes
200 Elevation Section Keynotes

and then
1 RECESSED FLOOR MAT 100
2 SCOREBOARD 100

1 4"THK STONE VENEER (SPLIT FACE) 200
2 PAINTED ALUM ENTRANCE CANOPY 200

is this the best way? or should i create 1 clean separate txt file for plans, 1 separate txt file for elevations. will my other sheets referring to the original large file still be valid? ive read here that there were some issues about loading different files so i assume that its possible to have different txt files in one project.

sorry if you think some of my questions are pretty basic. thanks in advance.

[3dsketcher]

actually, after testing it i found out that i can't have multiple txt files in one project. because when i created a small txt file for my plan key notes, all my wall section keynotes that were taken from the default keynote file became question marks(?).

that also means, i can't have a keynote #1 in plan and a keynote #1 in elevation. they all have to be unique. i will probably end up with very high numbers when we get to the other plans. im not used to seeing keynotes not start with #1 on a sheet but if this is how revit works then i can work with it.

my only concern is having to edit the long master project file makes it vulnerable to errors if it is being edited by multiple users.

can anybody just confirm if im doing this right and my assumptions are correct? just don't want to end up redoing it if my conclusions are wrong. thanks in advance.

[Scott D Davis]

Under Settings>Keynotes there is a setting that allows you to switch from "By Keynote" to "By sheet". I believe, that if you switch to "By Sheet" it will allow you to have a #1 on a sheet that is different from a #1 on another sheet.

[3dsketcher]

thanks scott. but i'm still getting an error even if i bring it in by sheet.

'Duplicate key value '1', text:........'

and are you using one txt file for the whole project? and editing the default one to add your own?

[truevis]

0 Division 00 - BRB User Defined
100 Plan Keynotes
200 Elevation Section Keynotes

and then
1 RECESSED FLOOR MAT 100
2 SCOREBOARD 100

1 4"THK STONE VENEER (SPLIT FACE) 200
2 PAINTED ALUM ENTRANCE CANOPY 200
More like this will behoove you:

0 Division 00 - BRB User Defined
1000 Plan Keynotes
2000 Elevation Section Keynotes

and then
1001 RECESSED FLOOR MAT 1000
1002 SCOREBOARD 1000

2001 4"THK STONE VENEER (SPLIT FACE) 2000
2002 PAINTED ALUM ENTRANCE CANOPY 2000

[david.metcalf]

I am putting my user Keynote tag in legend view and adding my own text. There are multi legend views one for demolition, construction, ceiling, etc sheets. This initial setup up can then be reused in future project easily.

Later... I attempted to find the thread on this topic how to create keynotes with legends. Can't find it must be over a month old?

David

[3dsketcher]

More like this will behoove you:

0 Division 00 - BRB User Defined
1000 Plan Keynotes
2000 Elevation Section Keynotes

and then
1001 RECESSED FLOOR MAT 1000
1002 SCOREBOARD 1000

2001 4"THK STONE VENEER (SPLIT FACE) 2000
2002 PAINTED ALUM ENTRANCE CANOPY 2000

wouldn't this give me tags that has 1001 1002 instead of 1 & 2?

[truevis]

wouldn't this give me tags that has 1001 1002 instead of 1 & 2?If you have it by sheet, the keynotes on each sheet start with 1. Try, lah...

The keynote thing is really good. Cannot keynote lines, I think, has to be an object. I made a box family with lots of types to add general notes for thing that I don't know what they look like yet.

Editing keynote file in Excel is good. Save as tab-delimited txt. Revit actually parses the quotes that Excel adds properly.

[3dsketcher]

hmmm. ill have to try this again.

and so you add all you stuff to the main big file? that's what im doing but never got confirmation from anybody if this is the right method. im concerned that with multiple users opening the files, it might get corrupted or messed up.

im even having errors even with a single file when i have somebody else open some worksets from my central file.

i don't want to lose my file esp that my deadline is next week. any tips?

[D.Williams]

hmmm. ill have to try this again.

and so you add all you stuff to the main big file? that's what im doing but never got confirmation from anybody if this is the right method. im concerned that with multiple users opening the files, it might get corrupted or messed up.

im even having errors even with a single file when i have somebody else open some worksets from my central file.

i don't want to lose my file esp that my deadline is next week. any tips?

Here's the rub. My suggestion - use the original txt file only if you use the same base set of notes (including your user added notes) or duplicate the file per project. If you have project specific notes I'd go with the latter. This is our chosen method so you can keep the txt file clean and not worry about another user opening a different project and seeing a note that's wrong, then changes it in the file, screwing up another project. Vicious cycle.

As you came across, each keynote within the text file must have a unique number. Even if you have two note #1s in two separate categories, you'll get the error you saw that Revit can't understand the note. When this happens, I haven't seen anything malicious happen within the file, other than note circles blanking out. We don't use CSI notes at all, so I have implemented a 5 digit rule for our notes. This way I can categorize notes by view type and still have multiple note #1: 10001, 11001, 12001, etc for the unique keynote value. As soon as you go this route though, you are pretty much relegated to using keynotes by sheet or you will see that 5 digit number.

When you do by sheet, the unique keynote number basically means squat when it comes to what appears on the page. Meaning, if you have a preset list of notes that always must number 1-20 on a specific set of sheets, you need to make sure that you place one instance of each of those notes in the correct order on each individual sheet. If you miss note #2 and you realize this when putting in note #98, you can't go back and place #2 as #2 on that sheet without deleting note #3 - #98. It'll see itself as #99. Big "not cool" deal right there.

As noted by Zeds earlier, the best way I see of trying to foolproof the txt file for your users is only to edit it through Excel. That way the program is worrying about tabs and formatting. As long as the user has filled out the three essential fields, it'd be hard to screw it up.

Hopefully that made a bit of sense.

[mibzim]

The bottom line is that these keynotes are damn difficult to master -as are many of the other features. I dont understand why they needed to link it all to an external database when revit is BUILT on a database type platform!? Seems crazy to me.

Our cad manager refuses to implement them because he thinks the rest of the office are all dunses and wont be able to use them. Maybe he has a point (about the "not being able to use them" part, that is).

I guess my point is that revit is not getting any more user friendly. Not at all. It seems that the more features they introduce, the more workarounds we need to come up with. Come on Autodesk - we all just want a product that is easy to use, right down to the finest detail.