Revit, Timberline and Innovaya

[phyllisr]

We have been exploring this interface with an area contractor and are looking for a good first "real" project with which to test what we think we have learned. We share a BIM vision with this contractor and are following similar paths. We are quite excited about the possibilities of a true partnership between all members of the team. We have recently found yet another area firm doing something similar using an ABS model instead of Revit (I was not in a position to challenge that choice). The Innovaya program is new but I would like to hear what other users (Building or Structure) have on the boards where this interface might be a factor.

Thoughts? Information to share? Real project comparisons? Are there others partnering with Contractors or Construction Managers yet?

A special thanks to Tom Sweeney at Findorff who introduced us to this remarkable opportunity. We have seen his work and are very impressed. Check out his quote on the first page of the Innovaya link below.
http://www.innovaya.com/

I look forward to your thoughts.

[Kirk Bricker]

phyllisr,

We have purchased 1 license of Innovaya last week, and are in the early stages of implementation. We think and hope Innovaya will help us in the initial stages of quantity take offs, and schematic estimating.

We are going to approach this software from the ground up (Uniformat style). We are going to map or closely connect the dots between assemblies in Timberline and Revit. We have a large database already built into Timberline, but we might need to start over or save-as and alter the database. Timberline assemblies are very specific about the description of the items in the assemblies. For instance, our first hurdle is going to be footings (we skipped site work). How much do we need to include in the Revit model object or (assembly) for the estimator to tie that object to a assembly in Timberline. Does the trench footing need to have insulation included, rebar tonnage built in? Does the trench footing have over dig built in to the object, crumb footings, or does it have a keyway? Does it have hoops, hoop size, dowels, dowel length? I think you get the idea. We are just starting to scratch the surface and these are questions that have come up for 1 object in Revit.

We have a full boat in our office, General Contractor, in house Project Managers, Estimators, Architects, Structural Engineers, and CADD gurus. From time to time, the super's come into the office for meetings, help with designs, check on construction documents, and maybe, just maybe they might need to pick a addendum. We try and get the whole team involved in the building process.

My 2c

[narlee]

How much is it?

[david.kingham]

We have been beta testing and helping develop visual estimating with innovaya for a quite awhile now. It is an incredible application that was very well thought out and is very simple to use. We're design-build and have our Estimators, PM's, Superintendents in house, we will be doing our first 'real' project using this software in a couple weeks. I'm very excited about the potential of this software and think it will be a great success.

brickerk, you do not need to build anything extra into your revit model, you simply assign the revit object to a timberline assembly, you do not need to redo your timberline database either, thats the beauty of it. We have a very custom database also and it works near flawlessly, there a few minor things we may need to change but very very minor. Don't hestitate to contact innovaya directly, they are more than willing to help with any question you have.

I just called Kevin Yu and told him about this thread, I'm sure he will add to this

[phyllisr]

We're design-build and have our Estimators, PM's, Superintendents in house, we will be doing our first 'real' project using this software in a couple weeks.
Do you employ architects on staff for the design or do you contract that independently? Do you build the model in-house or rely on models provided by design partners?

We are starting a project wherein our consultant uses Revit Structure. Have you done any testing to see how the visual estimating works with linked files?

Have you done anything yet pricing Design Options in Revit? Thanks for your response.

[david.kingham]

Yes we have architects in house, we do all the design and we are building our models in revit. We have tested linked structural files and it works well, there was a problem if the linked files were not at the exact same coordinates, but kevin is working on a solution for that. Currently design options are not supported but they are working on it and it should be in the next release i believe.

[jamie.casile80054]

phyllisr,

We have purchased 1 license of Innovaya last week, and are in the early stages of implementation. We think and hope Innovaya will help us in the initial stages of quantity take offs, and schematic estimating.

We are going to approach this software from the ground up (Uniformat style). We are going to map or closely connect the dots between assemblies in Timberline and Revit. We have a large database already built into Timberline, but we might need to start over or save-as and alter the database. Timberline assemblies are very specific about the description of the items in the assemblies. For instance, our first hurdle is going to be footings (we skipped site work). How much do we need to include in the Revit model object or (assembly) for the estimator to tie that object to a assembly in Timberline. Does the trench footing need to have insulation included, rebar tonnage built in? Does the trench footing have over dig built in to the object, crumb footings, or does it have a keyway? Does it have hoops, hoop size, dowels, dowel length? I think you get the idea. We are just starting to scratch the surface and these are questions that have come up for 1 object in Revit.

We have a full boat in our office, General Contractor, in house Project Managers, Estimators, Architects, Structural Engineers, and CADD gurus. From time to time, the super's come into the office for meetings, help with designs, check on construction documents, and maybe, just maybe they might need to pick a addendum. We try and get the whole team involved in the building process.

My 2c
Aloha,
I'm very interested in hearing about what you've experienced with Innovaya or any other 4D software.
thanks,
jamie

[narlee]

How much is the Innovaya and do you normally purchase a suite of apps?

[Jim Merritt]

This thread was started over a year and a half ago. It would be nice to hear comments on how this implementation ended up working out and some of the pitfalls that came up, as we are looking at this same combination of software.

--Jim

[david.kingham]

Take a look here http://bimx.blogspot.com/2008/02/5dsort-of.html

[Jim Merritt]

Take a look here http://bimx.blogspot.com/2008/02/5dsort-of.html

David, I thought from the above posts you maybe had this setup working? I've been thinking a stage one might be a dump to excel and figure out how to get the output to come in at just the right places to link to formulas to calculate costs.

The Revit->Innovaya->Timberline concept is great. It would be nice to hear of some real world success stories.

--Jim

[david.kingham]

It is a great concept and it still has great potential, unfortunately the 3d graphics engine is unbearable, if they could join forces with navisworks it would be amazing. One of the biggest struggles was the fact that when we really need this is when we don't have much detail in our model and there isn't much fudge room, QTO works much like OST where you can add a lot of the missing information that shouldn't necessarily be in the model yet...who knows what the future holds but for now we are not using Innovaya.

[cbj321123]

I have been using Revit as a General Contractor now for some time, and have both researched the programs by Innovaya as well as US Costs program that links to Timberline and MC2, both are great programs and have many benifits, i have also taken a look at Constructor which in many ways is Revit with the link built in similar to the two programs above.

Because i do not use Timberline or MC2 as an estimating tool and did not want to make the change from excell, mainly because excell gives you the ability to have flexibility from budgets to budgets, i took a step back and thought about all these programs as well as how to achieve what i wanted, basically a system that when a model is built it could produce all the iteams i need from the model and get it ready for a budget.

For example, even when these programs begin to calculate quantities, waste factors are not included, something a GC needs to account for, what i decided was to use Revits features of parameters and include new parameters as well as to use multiple scheules formated in certain ways with formulas to give me accurate quantities for budgeting. All the templetes i have in revit therefor mirror immage the layout i have for my excell budget, which means with some macros i can direct link these iteams to certain areas of the budget, leaving me only to put costs in the budget, unless i want to put these in revit which i have also done.

By doing this, i basically created a system within revit and revit only that can creat budgets, scope sheets, etc for budgiting and bidding purposes, because i dont model everything, i.e items like fire extinguishrs i add these into the budget manually.

Because each iteam has all these parameters attached to it, then (Once some programs have the ability) scheduling programs that get linked to the model and objects in the model will also carry cost parameters which will automatically create cash flow analysis.

Most of these things i have done are pretty easy, its just the thought process in getting to that point, as well as understanding how to budget and what is needed to budget, the rest of it is just spending the time to create these schedules and linking iteams, and adding parameters.

My goal, was to be able to take any modeler and make there take offs (Model) worthy of a sr. Estimators work, by taking away the calculations from them, all that is needed is to trace a cad file from an architect and put the right wall or column or floor in the model. Thus by doing this, it enables a Sr. Estimator more time to understand costs, study different aspects of the job as well as spend time developing more detailed scopes. Because all these iteams are done in pre-construction, these schedules can also be given to the architect to make changes and clean up drawings, thus reducing RFIs and costs.

As a GC a model given to them from an architect can be useful, but in many ways i just use it as reference, as by building the model myself i am able to learn the project and better understand things, it also takes no more time to build a model then tradiditional takes offs, and sometimes its faster depending on the modeler.

[jspartz]

We've also used Constructor in the past and are currently using Innovaya Visual Estimating (but with the need to tie it to Timberland, the Timberline database has to be quite far along) and is sort of clunky (intuitive how it determines what is what in the model, but if it gets the categorizing of components wrong, it's a pain). We just got on the QTO beta. I could keep you up to date on that.

[Jim Merritt]

Yes, I think a number of people (including myself) would be interested in hearing back how it goes.
--Jim

[DoTheBIM]

Put my name in there too. I emailed the QTO email address provided by Autodesk, but all I heard back were crickets chirping. How do I get involved or see this software to see how it aligns with our company goals?

[Brandon_Pike]

I just came across a solution called Building Explorer (www.buildingexplorer.com); seems to me it looks as if it creates a direct link with Revit (no need for a 3rd party linking software) to create quantity takeoffs, cost estimates and schedules. It uses RSmeans database for cost information. Looks promising...anyone have any experience/input on this solution?

[dimitri]

I just came across a solution called Building Explorer (www.buildingexplorer.com); seems to me it looks as if it creates a direct link with Revit (no need for a 3rd party linking software) to create quantity takeoffs, cost estimates and schedules. It uses RSmeans database for cost information. Looks promising...anyone have any experience/input on this solution?
I'm supposed to do a web conference with those guys next week, so at that point i'll give everyone an update. Seems like a nice solution on the surface of things though.

[Brandon_Pike]

I'm supposed to do a web conference with those guys next week, so at that point i'll give everyone an update. Seems like a nice solution on the surface of things though.

Since my last post, we have done a web conference as well. Looks like it delivers as advertised, but it looks as if it is still in the research/developement stage. So they are looking for more of Beta Testers than full-blown licensed users. That's the impression that I got anyay from the meeting.

[dimitri]

Interesting....maybe we could beta test for them! :o

[bwolfe]

Is there any information on the time frame for release of Building Explorer?

[dimitri]

I'm not sure about that, but i did a 2 hour webinar with them last night and it seems very very interesting. We had so many questions to ask and still have so many more. The good thing is, we usually got positive answers.

The programme seems quite powerful, and i recommend taking a look if you're interested in the link between design, estimating and scheduling.

[seriousmanager]

Check out what these guys in Europe are doing: www.nomitech.eu
A very intuitive and well defined system with embeded BIM viewer that also syncs with Primavera P6. They do have also a partner in the US.