Crossing the Divide

[David Conant]

As Revit has become a more mature product, more firms are trying it, doing pilot projects, and using it as a primary tool. We are very interested in the transition experiences of organizations moving from one platform to another. I would like to pose a few questions to the esteemed members of this group. I am not trying to spark a long discussion, but rather get a good picture of real usage and real pain from the vantage of actual users. Please try to restrain your reinterpretations of the number three so that I have a hope of getting some consistency.

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

How large is your user base? Revit/other

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

Many thanks.

[Steve_Stafford]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?
Microstation\J, slowly transitioning to V8....slowly

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?
N/A

How large is your user base? Revit/other
Three offices...90+, 25-30 Architectural...balance MEPSC

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
1. Data flow between disciplines...exporting is unwelcome to MEPS...feel disconnected from "live" data
2. Bad "history" with 3D software in the past
3. Getting users comfortable

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?
1. Data flow...between disciplines
2. TBA
3. TBA

Indulge me with brief comments?
If REvit improves the control during exportation of data to MS...I can quell the concerns I've encountered pretty well.

Secondarily, for those like us who draft MEPS design primarily in a 2D symbol/line context, Revit can do this exceedingly well as is...but lacks discipline specific features that enhance that process. The "hit" is library and parametric content creation. This is a "large" impediment, but not one Revit can really solve for us since every firm has it's own ideas about what symbols ought to be.

Thanks for listening!

[rodneyf]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

AutoCAD R14 and Softdesk 8

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

N/A

How large is your user base? Revit/other

15

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1. The amount of non productive time in learning a new program.
2. Getting users to think in 3D.
3. Getting upper management to see the benefits of Revit.

Just one other note, if I can get upper management to see the benefits of Revit I could be purchasing another 30 seats minimum by the end of the year.

Thanks,

[Scott D Davis]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

AutoCAD r14


If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

We purchased 75 seats of ADT 3 as an upgrade to AutoCAD 2000, but never used ADT in production.


How large is your user base? Revit/other

10 Revit seats, 75 AutoCAD r14/2000 seats.


If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."
2. Our firm is having problems letting go of r14, so transitioning to Revit is even more difficult.
3. Resistance to change. (ok, so all three points basically say the same thing)


If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

N/A

[Henry D]

I am an Architect working as a one man firm - no bosses, no employees (it's great!) so I am a single user. I was previously using ADT and bought Revit at the beginning of this year. Due to having to finish up projects started on ADT I only began about 4-6 weeks ago to do projects on Revit . All my new projects are now on Revit (as Dick Vitale would say: Revit all the way, Baby!!).

After using AutoCAD since Version 10 my biggest challenges have been:
1) Having to spend non-billable hours learning an entirely new program 2) I find that in Revit moving things around on the screen causes me grief - probably due to inexperience, but maybe the selecting and editing features could be better 3) I can't execute a lot of repetitive commands as fast as I would like - there are shortcuts, but a lot of commands are only accessible through a lot of dialogue box clicking - it's all about speed.

I think Revit is like a car with a super engine, but needing refinements, while ADT is a car with refinements, but with a lousy engine.

[hand471037]

> What is the primary design platform in your organization?

AutoCAD 2000/2000i

> How large is your user base? Revit/other

About fifty. We've got three Revit licences; it's currently just for 'special projects' like FM, design study, and 3D rendering, and not for production drafting. Yet.

> If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1. Cost. We don't have the money to upgrade. Our computers are a little old, and wouldn't run Revit well; on top of the cost of the Revit licences.

2. Training. People resist new things, no matter how better they may be. Some users see learning new platform as added work, no matter how much faster they might be able to do work once the new platform is used.

3. Firm Envirnment/attitude. We've never been as profitable with AutoCAD as we were with hand drafting (that's due to a number of reasons, but is a reality here), so upper management is wary of the promise of a CAD system that can increase productivity; in thier eyes the CAD system is a nessary evil that costs way too much money and time. This is no doubt left over from AutoCAD's lack of releavance and inefficentcy in our feild, but it's an attitude to be certain. Firm doesn't think in terms of appling new technology to solve problems and/or make things more efficent; only think in terms of what's 'required' to be in the industry. This is slowly changing, but is the brutal reality of a lot of firms. This will no doubt change in time, but Architects tend to be a stubbon bunch. :)

[bclarch]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?
Most actual "design" is still done by hand. Schematic design drawings are then created and refined in AutoCad LT98 followed by construction drawings in LT98.

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?
NA

How large is your user base? Revit/other
Two seats of Revit. Four LT98. Although we have two seats of Revit I am the only one in the office with any real time using it.

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
1. Most are management issues not software issues. The big one is working Revit based projects into our production schedule. Even though Revit has a short learning cuve it still takes a certain amount of time to get up to speed. The principal of the firm schedules project deadlines based on time needed to do the work in LT98. Until I can promise him as quick of a turnaround time in Revit he is leery of commiting projects solely to Revit. I have no doubt that we will be more efficient in the long run with Revit but it is hard to get proficient when I have to keep going back to LT98. It's a catch-22 that I can't see any simple solution for.
2. The single file model makes it more difficult to allow others to get experience. With separate drawings you could give a marked up sheet to an intern and have them do revisions to gain CAD experience. With Revit I have to get up to speed on worksets first before I can parcel out work to others. Also, if an inexperienced draftsperson makes an error it can propogate through the entire project instead of just one sheet (for which we would usually have a back up saved).
3. Creating and managing families and components. Again this is mostly a time related item. It takes time to get proficient and to create all the types used by the firm. Shipping more families (for instance, non-rectangular windows & windows in combined units) with the program would help here. You could do more out of the box before you have to tackle the family editor. Nothing like quick results to impress the decision makers in the office.

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?
Many thanks.

Additional comments:
Revit is definately headed in the right direction. The most helpful things that could be done in my opinion are implementaion items that help firms get up and running faster in terms of actual productivity in an office environment.
1. Revit should include some more typical template files (residential, commercial, interiors, industrial, etc.) with the software. These templates should include the most typical doors & windows as well as wall, ceiling, floor and roof types associated with these project types. Basic levels and views should be set up in the templates as well. Since the Revit development staff is populated with architects you should be able to put together some pretty good typicals. That way most firms will only have to tweak the templates to their liking. How about offering to convert any firm's existing titleblock to Revit for free? :D
2. There should be text files associated with families and family templates explaining their characteristics. Some items that would be helpful to have explained in writing are as follows. How the family is intended to be used. What the overall constraints are based on type (i.e. "This is a wall based family. Wall based families have the following characteristics...") and what do these constraints mean in terms of behavior in the model. Which items within the families are constrained to other items and why. What the various ref planes in that family are and how they are being used. Explain any instance parameters that have been set up. Anything else that might help a newbie understand the basic behavior and construction of that family or component and how the pieces of that family or component react internally with each other and externally with the model.

[JamesVan]

Hi, Dave. Glad to see the Revit team showing genuine interest in the user logistics.

Current platform: ACAD 2000/2004 with major customization (no production 3D)
User base: About 500 (8-12 practicing their Revit skills)
Three greatest impediments to expanding Revit:
1. Resistance to change (prior bad experiences)
2. Hesitance to implement on our large projects (which most are)
3. Developing the proper mindset (we actually have executive support and we're developing a VERY thorough implementation plan at the moment)

JV

[Zig]

Primary Platform: Revit
User Base: 2
Previous Platform: Architrion
Impediments to expanding Revit:
There are no impediments other than being able to find employees with experience in Revit. I have a small 2 person office, with both of us working in Revit. We have been working with Revit for the last 2 years and have completed 15 projects to date ranging from single family residential to small courthouses. I would probably retain additional services on a Contract basis if I could find local users.[/quote]

[Michael Coviello]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

Autocad 14/Softdesk 8

How large is your user base? Revit/other
1 revit (myself) 8 users (acad/softdesk8)

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
speed/ease of use
developing a template
Output (lineweights)

[Tom Dorner]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?
AutoCAD LT 6 seats

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?
N/A

How large is your user base? Revit/other
3 seats Revit / 6 AutoCAD LT

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
1. Creating all the real world families and templates we need.
2.Training - lack of good options in our city - too expensive too disruptive to go to out of town training.
3. Timing - switching to all Revit is like trying to change the tire on a moving car. We are very busy and finding the right timing is difficult

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition? N/A

Tom

[BillyGrey]

1) Revit

2) ADT-ACAD

3) One (will be adding body/seat)

4) N/A

5) A) Unlearning/Relearning a new platform (3d no prob, much better, clearer vis.)

B) Content Creation/Recreation (admitatedly part of office standards/area of
speciality, but still lots of creation)

C) Early learning curve = good...Becoming an advanced user not so good,
i.e., advanced modelling techniques,solids,parameters,worksets...but
hopefully that will change with the new book I have on order and more
time behind the wheel.( ;) )

[Scott Hopkins]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

Revit

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

ADT/AutoCAD

How large is your user base? Revit/other

Just me

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

No real problems
(One small one - I never really adjusted to default input in feet as opposed to inches)

[cgrover]

First off thanks for asking for our input...hopefully it will provide some valuable insight.

1. Revit

2. New firm, but had experience with Acad r14, 2000; ADT 3.3; Powercadd.

3. 1/hopefully adding another soon.

4. Revit is main design/documentation tool. It has been easy to learn the basics but I find the family creation and some of the other more advanced features harder to learn. Luckily there was Zoogdesign and now this forum for help. Wish there were more and better instructors offering training.

5. First it should be noted that I was pushing hard for ADT with my former firm and relutantly supported Revit. (This was before Autodesk had purchased the software.) Once I started working on it I became hooked and it was partly a cause for me leaving my previous firm in which I was an associate partner. I felt the rest of the firm was going to resist the implementation and it would be a long time, if ever that we would have had full implementation. Thus I've put everything I got into Revit because I believe it is the best tool on the market at this time. Sorry, back to the question...Family creation, rendering and family parameters...families have me stumped..

Thanks again for all the work the Revit staff does and looking forward to the next release.

Sincerely,
grover

[David Conant]

It's interesting to see this thread come bvack to life after a year of dormancy. Please jump in and add your experience. Let's see if there is any difference in the nature of responses from last year.

[SCShell]

Hi there,

I have had my own practice for over 16 years now. I am a one man shop now....thanks to Revit.
I never bought into cad. I was a "hand" drafter until June 2003. I have now been using Revit as my sole tool and have to say, I love it. I now can produce drawings and images which I could only imagine back when producing drawings and sketches by hand, as good as they were!

Revit has some extremely powerful features. I really liked the one person's phrase about the car with a powerful engine!

Revit needs further refinement and work, but heck, who or what doesn't? This will come with time. Someone at Autodesk reminded me a long time ago that Revit is where AutoCad was 15 years ago! A new technology, trying to become the standard.

I have seen some great examples of local firms using Revit, while still using their ACAD details etc. (I belong to our local User Group) This really helps.

Keep up the good work and the GREAT SUPPORT!

I equate Revit to playing guitar:
Many can do it, few will do it well! I see this all the time with software programs where people learn a program only to the point they need to. Most programs will do much more; however, it is not worth it to them or they just don't need it.

(sorry I didn't follow your outline, but most questions didn't apply since I never used CAD)
Steven Shell, Architect
Tucson, AZ

[JohnASB]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

Autocad 2000

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

Not primary for design. Still use pencil and Sketchup.

How large is your user base? Revit/other

4 Revit / 6 Autocad

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1. Training
2. Cost
3. Exporting

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

1. Families
-Not enough libraries or available families require editing, often because they are not implemented well (subjective and may be due to outside libraries).
Also, with new capabilities for families, I look forward to a single window or door family, for instance, with multiple trim options, swing angle, openable by view, catalogged for multiple vendors, hardware options, mutin options, etc.

2. Availability of trained workforce for hire or outside work.

3. Mutli-user environment is tedious with workset implementation. I would enjoy being able to use groups more to seperate files but issues remain with mirroring, and updating.

[cadkiller]

Hello David;

Here it is 3 years later and I'm bringing this thread back to life.

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

ADT 2007 & Revit Building 9.0 (depends on the project)

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

AutoCAD 2000 then ADT 2005

How large is your user base? Revit/other

One

If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1- Modeling tools are limited (especially for framing members)
2- Stair & Railing needs vast improvements
3- Drafting Tools need to be improved

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

1- Modeling tools
2- Stair & Railing
3- Drafting Tools

[davidcobi]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?
We have two offices:
Santa Monica is running PowerCADD on the Mac
Santa Barbara is running Revit on PCs


If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?
Santa Monica is still running PowerCADD on the Mac
Santa Barbara was running PowerCADD on the Mac


How large is your user base? Revit/other
Santa Monica has 13 PowerCADD users and no Revit users
Santa Barbara has 8 Revit Users and 3 PowerCADD users



If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
The Santa Monica Office
1. Staff is not trained in Revit and some users don't want to make the switch.
2. The office has already invested in Macintosh computers and training staff in PowerCADD.
3. SM's library of details and content are all in PowerCADD.


If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?
The Santa Barbara Office
1. Getting quality drawings can be diffucult for new users because sometimes wall intersections won't heal and controling the visibility of other objects can be difficult for new users especially in split-level projects.
2. It can be a challenge to convert die-hard Mac users to the PC platform.
3. Users are slow to pick up Revit skills if they are not using Revit on a daily basis so we had to convert to Revit completely in the Santa Barbara office (we are almost there).

[ron.sanpedro]

* What is the primary design platform in your organization?
Sketchup and hand sketching for primary design, with AutoCAD as an aid in documentation of the design. Presentations are usuall done in Adobe InDesign with content coming from AutoCAD, Sketchup and scans via Photoshop.

* How large is your user base? Revit/other
2 Revit users on the Pilot Project, 5-6 strong Sketchup users, 20+ AutoCAD users.

* If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?
Ease of use, intuitiveness. Sketchup has really taken off because it is simple to learn, and intuitive to use. Revit offers lots of power & potential, especially as compared to AutoCAD, but even once you are familiar with it, it isn't as intuitive as many here would like. Especially with regards to families and the fact that all family work is done outside the context of the actual project (no in-place editing), etc.

Another point of contention is the lack of user interface customization. The screen is what it is and you really can't move things around and have them stay between sessions (Project Browser location, not to mention dual screen functionality). This gives a bad initial impression, that the tool is going to force you to work the way it wants you to, which leads to the (false) assumption that the architecture will also be dictated by the tool. This leads to defensive reaction right from the start, which is hard to then overcome. Yes, this is a training issue, but a more fluid and customizable UI would also help people believe the training.

Thanks,
Gordon

[DanielleAnderson]

It is amazing (and sort of sad to me) that this thread is 3 years old and just beginning to be relevant here at this office...Here's our current situation:


What is the primary design platform in your organization?

Autocad 2006 with a little bit of archicad and 3dmax sprinkled in.


How large is your user base? Revit/other

We're a firm of just over 100 now, and we have 70 Revit licenses (concurrent with Autocad 2006), but there are currently only 3 of us completely comfortable in Revit (partly why I was hired back in February), and about 5 or 6 more who are beginning to get comfortable with it, and then about 10 more who are curious about it and want to learn more, but for some reason or other have not had the time to.
An interesting observation I have made at this firm is that completely opposite from what I had expected, interest in Revit is predominantly among the project architects and project managers who want to increase efficiency and work-flow, NOT the younger 3d-versed recent college grads who would most likely be using the tool - they seem much more apt to stay with Autocad.


If Revit is not your primary design application, what are the three greatest impediments to expanding Revit use in your organization?

1) Comfort/trust in Autocad, there seems to be a feeling of investment there.
2) Lack of organized training which has created a little bit of fear, I think.
3) Lack of time - in the fast-paced market there is little perceived time for new software training.

It's not entirely bleak though. I have started what we call around here "Revit Thursdays" where I pick a topic (or someone interested asks a question) and we discuss it for an hour every week at a set time and in a set location. Attendance is slowly rising, and more people are starting to see the advantages of investigating this new software. We now have 3 projects that are/will be done in Revit, and fourth where (unfortunately) Revit is just being used as a modelling/quick rendering tool to understand spaces and mass, and occassionally to cut sections with.

[anthony.67953]

1. Revit 9 is our primary platform. 15 years prior Autodesk ADT.

2. 3 users Revit only. Made a mistake in reviving old project in ADT and lost money. Should have imported to Revit.

3.Major impediment is the ability to work with schedules more easily, to be able to calculate window and door light and egress areas etc.would be a great plus.

[Andre Baros]

Hey David, if you're in Chicago in September, you could visit and get lots of answers on this topic. The focus of the Chicago Loop Revit User Group meeting will be "implementing Revit". We have a good mix of firms, some of which will be focusing on implementing Revit Building for the first time, and many who will be focusing on implementing colaboration in Revit with MEP and Structural.

[Fred Blome]

What is the primary design platform in your organization?

Handsketches, then Revit 100%

If Revit is currently a major or primary design application in your organization, what were your previous design computing platform(s)?

Microstation (2D only).

How large is your user base? Revit/other

One man shop + 1 or 2 part time outside consultants

If Revit is your primary design application, what have been the three areas of greatest resistance you have overcome during the transition?

Mental shift of learning new tools and methodology.
Hitting road block of not knowing how to do something major while working on a real project, ie I abandoned Revit twice on projects, before getting enough experience to take it all the way through to CDs.
Having to keep creating or finding families to replace the huge library from previous system.