CSI and ODBC

[jkrager]

Is anybody building CSI spec numbers into their families? You may have ideas about where I am going with this (actually the possibilities are near endless). If you aren't doing it, why not? Is there some coordination nightmare that I am not seeing? What might the implications be for this?

[greg.mcdowell]

The only "problem" I can see with predefining CSI numbers is that they do change from time to time (and sometimes from project to project)... but, if we could identify a way to globally change them then I think it would be a good idea... though I'm not sure about the connection with ODBC yet...

[GuyR]

Is there some coordination nightmare that I am not seeing?

There is if you want to use CSI2004... Will update the thread regarding this during the weekend.

[christo4robin]

The transition from CSI MF1995 to MF2004 was not (at least as far as I could see) rule based. I.e., there was not an easy way to have the computer process/map one category to another without substantial human intervention. I'm guessing that MF2004 will take a bit of time to catch on, but when it does it should have a similar run (8, 9, 10 years) before a change.

I am, as I go, adding in keynote identity information based on MF2004 to the families in my projects.

[jkrager]

Here is where I am going with this.
I recently took a break from the Revit forums to focus on increasing my knowledge of Microsoft Access. Coming back to the construction world, I have an appreciation for the communication that these two database managers can wield.
It came to my attention that RSMeans information can be liscenced in Microsoft (excel or access) format. Also, they have softwares out there that can link estimating data to Microsoft Project information (another contractor friendly progam). I know I sound like a salesman for Billy but there is huge potential when the "standard" cad language can speak with the "standard" programming/collaboration language.
The catch is that Revit information needs to have a consistant, universal identifier that these other programs can recognize and know what to do with.
That is where the MasterFormat comes in.
I am curious as to how much these avenues are being explored by others besides me. I imagine that whoever can make such links work for them stand to benifit financially.

[GuyR]

The catch is that Revit information needs to have a consistant, universal identifier that these other programs can recognize and know what to do with.
That is where the MasterFormat comes in.

I've have also being doing a lot with this and MasteFormat isn't it. CSI2004 is a step backwards IMO. There is a better way and it isn't MasterFormat....

Guy

[Gene Herring]

JKRAGER, I have been exploring a similar approach as you have, attempting to marry the data through MS Access. The quandry has to do with levels of granularity in how we use the data from Revit for estimating. For example, I use RS Means cost data which in CSI format will match up to some degree with the assembly codes in Revit. However yet, there are numerous inconsistencies. This can be fixed but is manually intensive but I intend to remap the data and replace the Revit codes with the means. Also using the Revit "Uniformat classifications" with the materials keynotes provides another means of data mapping but has its own set of complexities. Basically a complete overhaul of the materials definition table or text file whatever format it is. What we really need is Bi-directional" ODBC connectivity to write values back to Revit in a more data friendly manner. Revit is truly an "International" product and the needs vary around the globe. If the data model was more "database friendly, it would facilitate the unique ways in which we use the product with other systems, naming conventions, etc. This is a good thread, I will post up some screen shots of some things I have been toying with.

[Gene Herring]

JKrager, forgot to ask you where I might find more info on your statement

" It came to my attention that RSMeans information can be liscenced in Microsoft (excel or access) format. Also, they have softwares out there that can link estimating data to Microsoft Project information (another contractor friendly progam). "

[jkrager]

Here is where that data comes from directly. I would imagine that as more people pick up the BIM systems, that more emphasis will be put into getting this data out, not just in a custom database.

http://www.rsmeans.com/consulting/customdata.asp

Also, check out this one for additional services
http://www.rsmeans.com/consulting/index.asp

And the links to the outside vendors that are using RSMeans. Most of these can talk to ODBC or MS applications.
http://www.rsmeans.com/demosource/index.asp

[jkrager]

By the way, Nice work!! I like your idea about a Bi-directional ODBC connection. Hmmm

[Gene Herring]

Thanks for the links. Will keep you posted on what I come up with.

[GuyR]

Basically a complete overhaul of the materials definition table or text file whatever format it is. What we really need is Bi-directional" ODBC connectivity to write values back to Revit in a more data friendly manne

Bi-directional connectivity exists now via the API, I doubt you will see it via ODBC for obvious reasons. However your ability to update CSI fields via the API is currently limited. So you would have to combine this will updating of your keynote file.You could also add an RSMeans project parameter to categories and use this externally which may help.

Guy

[Gene Herring]

Guy, thanks for the tips. a quick question, your comment
"Bi-directional connectivity exists now via the API, I doubt you will see it via ODBC for obvious reasons."

Does this mean a change of this magnitude would require such a significant overhaul to the Revit data structure as to render it an impractical solution???

Or is this something considered "undesirable" by Autodesk?
I'm clueless, whats the ODBC mystery with Revit? Even dumb autocad can do that. enlighten me my friend.

Thanks for your feedback.

[GuyR]

Does this mean a change of this magnitude would require such a significant overhaul to the Revit data structure as to render it an impractical solution???

What I mean as the API gives you a significantly richer set of tools for exporting and importing of data. ODBC is really a hangover from the pre API days IMO. Having said that the API doesn't have support for linked file projects nor does it necessarily give you access to all the objects you might expect(Yet). For example V9 keynotes.


I'm clueless, whats the ODBC mystery with Revit? Even dumb autocad can do that. enlighten me my friend.

No mystery. For various reasons, not least because of the way families are loaded it's just not a straight bi-directional path. My impression is the Factory wants you to use the API if you are needing to update Revit data in project. And for that reason I doubt they're putting effort into bi-directional ODBC.

HTH,

Guy

[Lashers]

Idiot question of the week!

Can someone post a drawing using keynotes and how they are referenced back in the sheets to descriptions on items?

I have an idea of how they work, but am a bit lost in all the jargon and formats mentioned above. It will hopefully clear my thoughts on how I would be able to implement them in my workflow . . it sounds like a useful feature, even if imperfect at the minute.

Also, all the formats you guys are discussing, are they US, UK or International standards.

[Gene Herring]

Guy, thanks for the clarification. You are making a lot of sense. I get the picture now.

[trombe]

sorry to butt in.

CSI Uniformat and CSI Masterformat are American construction industry standards

CBI, is a NZ standard system, an index (the "CBI index' ) of construction materials / systems / assemblies. It is controlled largely by Construction Information Ltd, a private NZ company to implement a system of indexing for specifications and drawings - the specification is called Masterspec. Both Masterspec and the CBI are proprietary, however, non Masterspec (monthly) subscribers, are allowed and encouraged to use the CBI index system to integrate this methodology into their drawings, and thus by infusion into the industry.
Ultimately we are encouraged to sing off the same song sheet ( a good idea) as long as it is the privately owned Construction Information Ltd song sheet ( a very bad idea).

I'd like to see the CBI released to the Commerce Ministry or the Ministry of Economic Development proper or dare I say it, risk it with the Department of Building and Housing ( the DBH), so that it is able to be used more successfully and widely and free of private ownership.

The Australians have a different system, and you guys in England have yet another one for your country......confused yet ?

regards
trombe

[Lashers]

Thanks Trombe,

I have taken the time to do some checking myself and in the UK we have CAWS & Uniclass working together (I Think) and NBS which is the commercial body and possibly the more referenced one.

I was getting confused between CIS (as per conversations above) and Uniclass, which I thought was supposed to be moving towards an international standard! Thought I had missed something in the mix!

That aside, I understand the concept of using these in relation to keynotes, but I am wondering where the descriptions will then sit and also I am guessing the core problem is that we will not easily be able to flesh these out for the specifice of what we need in the project.

I would still like to see a drawing on how this all works if anyone is able to do so.