Fire Rating Partition Tape using Revit 9.0 Wall Hatching

[dpollard909366]

I have posted this before, but it always seems to be at the end of a thread. So here it is again. It would be great if you guys could build some tape hatch patterns and share them so that we can put this issue to rest for a little while!

"I found a hatch to use for fire rated walls. With 9.0 you can orient it with direction of the wall. The downside is that you cannot assign a model pattern to the wall cut, so if you have 1/8" overalls and 1/4" enlarged, the spacing will change in the line.

You can edit the .pat to create various linetypes, so please post anything good that you come up with. We have 3 different rated walls and are trying to create 3 different hatch patterns."

[david.kingham]

I'm creating some patterns right now, if you have a specific type you need let me know...I'll post what I have in a while....getting late will probably be monday

[david.kingham]

Here's what I've created, they're based upon our standards so they might not be what you're looking for exactly, I can make a new one in a few seconds if ya need anything else

[dpollard909366]

Thanks David! Those are great - better than the one I posted!

[mcuevas]

David,
Those wall ratings work great. There is only one minor problem that I have noticed. When I export a view to AutoCAD. Seems the hatch will not orient or align with the element. I think this might be a general revit issue more than anything though.

[3dsketcher]

thanks guys. this is very helpful.

i have a question though, sometimes we only show fire rating on actual egress corridors, or wherever it's needed. right now i placed the hatch on 'the coarse scale fill pattern' but it floods my whole floor plan. is there a way so select only the walls i want to have this hatch without actually creating a duplicate?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I would definetly create different wall styles for each use.

1 hour rated separation
2 hour
Interior partition
Unrated separation etc.

This way the wall type reflects the actual function/rating of the wall and becomes part of that style

[trmpublic]

These are great! Thanks for posting.

Dave Pollard and David Kingham: how do you create these hatches? I need a 4 hour pattern, and it seems like a huge waste of time to do it in Notepad. Is there some other program where I can edit the *.pat files graphically?

[captainbunsaver]

Awesome, dude!

Just one request, though.

Wouldn't it make sense to have the one-hour with 1 gap in it,
and the two-hour with 2 gaps in it, etc?

With that said, can you please create a pattern with one gap in it?


TC

[david.kingham]

I use this program http://www.cadopolis.com/autocad_addons/GlobalCAD_Hatch-Manager.shtml
It is very easy to use

That is just our standard for rated walls, we use one gap for smoke partitions

I'll try to get around to making a 4 hour but I can't guarantee anything soon

[captainbunsaver]

You're great! Thanks from all of us who have been scratching our heads for years trying to figure this one out.


TC

[mhulme]

If you typically only show fire taping on one sheet or two, the hatch pattern method of showing can be made view specific by assigning the hatch pattern to a filter.

View...Visibility Graphics...Filters...Add...Edit/New...

Filter walls by Fire Rating, and attach your custom hatch pattern to the cut pattern of each filter.

[jcoe]

I typically us a line-based detail component because our standard is to only show the fire rating of assemblies on code drawings. Also I have found that when you send files (AutoCAD export) to consultants with walls that have dense hatch patterns, they tend to complain - especially those using non-Autodesk products.

[BSaunders]

I was wondering if anyone knew whether or not it would be possible to edit into the .pat file, letters for the wall rating. I have supervisor that insists on putting letters in the wall rating symbols. I know it not really industry standard but whoever let that stop them :).

Byron

[patricks]

Nope, text in a hatch pattern is not possible.

A line-based repeating detail of a line pattern with text is probably your only option there, and then it would only be view-specific.

[smarttiger]

Anyone figure out how to get wall ratings onto curtainwalls? Thx

[sbrown]

do you find those hatches slow down your model, they seem to kill my performance because they are lots of lines. I also can't get it to stay perpendicular to the wall type when using filters to apply it.

[david.kingham]

Hey Scott, it does slow down the view a bit because of all the lines, I would shutoff the cut pattern in the wall for your working views to speed it up. And yes filters do not work correctly as I posted here http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=45869
We don't use this solution anymore, didn't pop enough. So back to detail lines in the code plan....

[twiceroadsfool]

Man, call my unartistic with my drawings, and accuse me of having been bred with no traditions for drawing style... But i cant get on board with wasting time on a non value adding process, when filters and linestyles and lineweights will cover this for free,with no time investment made by the end user.

[Scott D Davis]

Looks good to me Aaron! I'm with you....we as an industry really need to re-think what "makes" a set of drawings and why certain "drawing standards" are so hard to let go of when we can do it easier and better.

[mcuevas]

I have to disagree, there is a big difference between using the “wall tape” method of delineating wall types and trying to use the built in filter method of Revit to do that also (see attachment). It could just be me, but when I see a broken lines on a plan, it pretty much means a couple of things, it’s being demolished or it’s showing future work. Let’s just call it what it really is, it’s a limitation of the software at this point. But there are work-arounds that bring you the same results. I don’t know where you are coming from when you say that you are wasting time on a non value adding process, it did not take me any extra time to put in the wall ratings as they are part of the wall itself. I would think however that it does take the same amount of time to manage filters in your views. Unfortunately for Autodesk we do not all create drawings the exact same way, there are multiple influences on how a set is put together. Influences range from the Principle in Charge to the government agencies checking the drawings.

[twiceroadsfool]

No biggie, we agree to disagree. :)

It takes no time to manage Filters across views, since they get built right in to our template. For what its worth, those filters got set up once, and have not been touched since. The end users dont even go in to the view until theyre doing drawing reviews.

They simply go in the architectural floor plan, and model their walls (with the appropriate Fire Rating) and the filter takes care of the rest.

As for the way our walls look, none of the fire rated walls have even been demolished on accident. Not even an RFI on the issue. But, we also have the little legend i showed in my attachment, sitting on the sheet. :)

To each his own, i dont want my users spending time taping/drafting/repeating detail-ing something that can be done automatically without even looking at it.

Not only does it take more time, but it induces the potential for more error, when walls start shifting and people forget to go move their drafted elements. Sure, weve done drawings and coordinated them manually for hundreds of years (lol), but we dont have to anymore. I want to spent that extra time working on the design for my clients, not jumping between sheets to chase drafting lines.

And ill explain it like that when they ask why it doesnt look the old fashioned way. ;)

[Dimitri Harvalias]

In this age of inexpensive color plotting I prefer to use solid color fills on 11x17 sheets. My experience is that these drawigns are typically used only by building authourities to verify code compliance. Everyone on site is still going to use the basic floor plan and their trade supervisors go about their business with felt tip markers so the folks in the field have a simple, color coded set to work from.
As Aaron said, we agree to disagree and I too prefer to let Revit manage this stuff by rules rather than letting it get drafted line by line.

[mcuevas]

That is one thing we both agree on, I would not ever recommend that people be using detail components and drafting lines for wall ratings, that's just silly......

[sbrown]

In this age of inexpensive color plotting I prefer to use solid color fills on 11x17 sheets. My experience is that these drawigns are typically used only by building authourities to verify code compliance. Everyone on site is still going to use the basic floor plan and their trade supervisors go about their business with felt tip markers so the folks in the field have a simple, color coded set to work from.
As Aaron said, we agree to disagree and I too prefer to let Revit manage this stuff by rules rather than letting it get drafted line by line.

I'm planning on going this way too. We decided even if the few large format color sheets are $90 a piece they are worth giving to the contractor to have on his wall. So we've created a wall type project and filters, Red is one hour, Orange two hour etc. I started with a format Scott Davis used at his previous firm and added filtering too it so we can quickly see the ratings of Walls, doors, etc.

[Archman]

I'm planning on going this way too. We decided even if the few large format color sheets are $90 a piece they are worth giving to the contractor to have on his wall. So we've created a wall type project and filters, Red is one hour, Orange two hour etc. I started with a format Scott Davis used at his previous firm and added filtering too it so we can quickly see the ratings of Walls, doors, etc.

After months of internal debate we ended up settling on wall hatches and color. We wanted to be able to create life saftely drawings that read as well in black and white as they do in color. So, we created a series of view templates in our standard template file, two of which halftone all walls and doors that are not rated. The fill pattern in the core of the rated walls defines the rating, and the rated walls pop becasue they are black versus halftoned for the non-rated walls. For jurisdictions that prefer or tolerate color, we created another series of view templates that replace the fill patterns with solid color fills based on the rating parameter of the wall.

Seems to work pretty well, becasue it is pretty much a flip of a switch to go from color to black and white and back.

[cbaze]

I have to disagree, there is a big difference between using the “wall tape” method of delineating wall types and trying to use the built in filter method of Revit to do that also (see attachment). It could just be me, but when I see a broken lines on a plan, it pretty much means a couple of things, it’s being demolished or it’s showing future work. Let’s just call it what it really is, it’s a limitation of the software at this point. But there are work-arounds that bring you the same results. I don’t know where you are coming from when you say that you are wasting time on a non value adding process, it did not take me any extra time to put in the wall ratings as they are part of the wall itself. I would think however that it does take the same amount of time to manage filters in your views. Unfortunately for Autodesk we do not all create drawings the exact same way, there are multiple influences on how a set is put together. Influences range from the Principle in Charge to the government agencies checking the drawings.

So did you use david's hatch patterns in the drawing you posted? Is there a way to get this result without 120972347 lines?

[mr6jam]

Here's what I've created, they're based upon our standards so they might not be what you're looking for exactly, I can make a new one in a few seconds if ya need anything else
Hi David.kingham,

How could I edit the smoke.pat file to show 5 1/4" long solid black blocks?

[cbaze]

Hi David.kingham,

How could I edit the smoke.pat file to show 5 1/4" long solid black blocks?

You can't. .pat files are limited to straight lines.

[cbaze]

Are people still using hatch patterns with lines perpendicular to the wall for this, or is there a better practice?

[Don Sutherland]

David,

I working with a consultant is working in Autocad. When I export the floor plan to the autocad the 1 hour wall patterns convert over OK with the Horizontal walls, but in the vertical walls the pattern changes to a single cross line in the Autocad file.

I have tried to locate the wall pattern in the wall stud material type and as a coarse wall type, and both had the same problem.

Have you had a problem with this?

Don Sutherland, Architect

[david.kingham]

This is currently a bug and there is no way around it, the good news is that it has been fixed in 2010! So you just have to wait a couple weeks...

[guy.messick825831]

Hi,

We have been working on this for some time, and thought filters were the way to go, utilizing fill pattens based on the fire rating parameter. So far so good, until you need a legend - the same fill patterns look quite different, and Legend Component walls won't use the filters. So, I'm back to coarse fill patterns. aargh.

[emk]

Are these hatch patterns visible to MEP09 linking the Arch file? If so, then I assume they could manipulate with filters?
thanks
Ed K
MSKTD & Associates
Ft. Wayne, IN

[twiceroadsfool]

Hi,

We have been working on this for some time, and thought filters were the way to go, utilizing fill pattens based on the fire rating parameter. So far so good, until you need a legend - the same fill patterns look quite different, and Legend Component walls won't use the filters. So, I'm back to coarse fill patterns. aargh.

Set up a Floor Plan in a different Phase, as the Legend. Thats what we do. All filters, all the time. LOL.

[guy.messick825831]

Aaron, thanks so much. I was actually using snagit images for the legend (o.k., stop laughing). Considering that we do a lot of phased projects, it's kind of funny we didn't think of this.

[twiceroadsfool]

Aaron, thanks so much. I was actually using snagit images for the legend (o.k., stop laughing). Considering that we do a lot of phased projects, it's kind of funny we didn't think of this.

I put mine two phases before existing, and use the phase before existing to demolish everything. Never shows up, never schedules, never affects anything.

[mdizon7146]

This is currently a bug and there is no way around it, the good news is that it has been fixed in 2010! So you just have to wait a couple weeks...

@David:

We just recently switched to Revit as our primary drafting too. Just wondering based on the quote above, so how was it fixed on the 2010 version and if anyone could show the process please? Thanks in advance.

[ihakki]

Attached are wall hatch patterns for 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour & 4 hour walls (a little different than other posts). I've also included some instructions form making other hatch patterns. It all starts with a "solid" hatch made with multiple vertical lines. You can create gaps by adding a semicolon at the beginning of the text representing the vertical line. To help figure things out, I made an AutoCAD file the locates the location of the vertical lines. I've also tried to document how the changes are being made.

These hatches do not work in AutoCAD.
This linetype solution does not work on curved walls.

[david.kingham]

@David:

We just recently switched to Revit as our primary drafting too. Just wondering based on the quote above, so how was it fixed on the 2010 version and if anyone could show the process please? Thanks in advance.

I was only referring to when you export to autocad the patterns stay aligned with the walls now

[hpp88]

I'm a first time Augi user, so I do apologize if I'm posting under the wrong thread, but I have a question on curved rated walls. Am not sure how to make the hatch pattern appear perpendicular to the curve's center point. Using Revit 2010. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[ihakki]

Sorry, but this can't be done. I'll give you my favorite piece of Revit advice; sometimes it's best just to go with the way the program makes things. The key is to communicate your ideas to the contractor (or others). They can be more forgiving about things like non-perpendicular hatch patterns than we architects are willing to accept. When stuck with something that does not look graphically correct "Does this communicate the idea?" If the answer is no, you may need to add additional information to the drawing key.

[hpp88]

Thanks for the input. This may pose quite a challenge for us since we typically show the fire rating tape on all plotted plan sheets - where they appear. I guess we will try to find a work around. We've done this before with grouped line work aligned to the walls. Seems forced, but it does the job. Hopefully this can be addressed in the near future. (Not just for the rating tape but, all hatches).

[sbrown]

So do we. So we use detail lines set up for each type of wall rating. Group those and copy paste align to all the views that need to show that info. Then edit the group when walls move.

I still use the filtered plans with just solid colors to graphically see which walls are which rating.

[rockgtr679]

We're in the process of switching over to Revit and are running into many issues similar to this one. It's interesting the differences in opinions between using different methods. Most of them come down to two basic solutions: The work around (detail lines in this case) and trying to use Revit in the way it seems to be intended (hatch patterns).

I'm a die hard fan of trying to use the program in the way it seems intended, but for this problem, using detail lines seems to be a better solution (for us atleast). We only display ratings on one sheet so we really need them to pop and the hatch pattern just doesn't seem to cut it.

If I were to create a wish for this... it would be nice if you could control the appearance of the wall the way a family can be controlled in different views, and you could create a view type for a life safety sheet. OR If you could create a line that is based on the wall centerline and control the view settings to display only that line in certain view templates.

There's my 2 cents...

--Dustin

[rdekarske]

Good Afternoon,

Has REVIT Architecture 2011 addressed the issue of creating Life Safety drawings with the appropriate wall rating identification? Are local State Inspector is looking for:

---------- XX----------XX-------- for non rated wall
---------- 1S --------- 1S------- for one hour smoke wall
--------- 1HR--------- 1HR------- for one hour fire wall
--------- 2HR -------- 2HR ------ for two hour fire wall
--------- S ------- S ------- for smoke compartment

I know this has been asked before. Just looking for an update.

Thanks,

Rick De Karske
Columbia St. Mary's Facilities Development
Milwaukee, WI

[twiceroadsfool]

All of the solutions posted in this thread still demonstrate the current capabilities of Revit 2011.

[nancy.mcclure]

rockgtr679, using Filters allows your team to define a series of conditions (ie: Walls > Fire Rating EQUALS "1-HR" - meaning you do have to have separate wall types for the various conditions) and then select the specific views you wish to apply that filter to. You can then define what graphic response you want that Filter condition to trigger: apply a hatch, change a color, turn off visibility, etc. It's a very flexible tool that when you apply it to a view, it simply looks for the condition, and lets the user define what they want the reaction to be. This can then be added to View Templates to extend to multiple views.

Hope that helps,

[ghale]

If anybody's interested in trying out the graphic fire rating in the wall pattern, there is examples (hatch patterns and guidelines) listed in the VA BIM Guide here http://www.cfm.va.gov/til/bim/BIMGuide/drawreq.htm

I'm giving this a test now to see how it performs. I imagining that curved walls will be hang up as well as short walls where an opening takes up the majority of the length.

[tycollier1975]

could you post a template?

[ghale]

Here are some files I received from an undisclosed source which are simpler than the VA standard fire rating patterns. I've also included a Revit file with those walls built in as samples. The color was added for easier visibility while working in Revit, the patterns are essentially for use in black and white. Curved walls and short walls don't come out so great. If you can possible get away with printing in color with solid fills, it is the best option. I would also suggest only using these patterns in view filters for your fire safety plans as opposed to building the pattern into the wall material. It will help with file performance as the project grows.

[jmqrsq]

We have been using various methods for this. Most recently and currently we are using a group of detail lines that have linestyles to represent our rating types. Being that its a group we can edit it in any plan the group is pasted into and they all change. It would be nice to have some automatic functionality though based on wall type. Has anyone used your method recently or is there a better option now in 2012? 2013?

[patricks]

We have been using the patterns attached above as the wall's core layer cut pattern for years now, and it's been working pretty well. We also set the wall's coarse view cut pattern to the same pattern and it shows up great in smaller-scale life safety plans.

My only quip about the patterns is that the 1-hour pattern is basically a dark line, short white space, short dark space, short white space, then repeat. To some that might read as one short dark space (for 1-hour), but to others it might read as 2 white spaces and they might think it's a 2-hour wall. The patterns might read better by the number of short white spaces rather than the number of short dark spaces.

[jmqrsq]

So am I missing something? When I try these my vertical walls are filled solid, like the pattern doesnt turn perpendicular to the wall length. Or is this the way you have been using it?

[ghale]

You'll have to set the pattern to "align with element" in the pattern definition properties. Then it will orient perpendicular to the walls.

We've used the patterns successfully on a couple of projects, but PM's still choose to supplement the patterns with a linetype on the code compliance plans as the pattern can be hard to read at small scales. We also add color to these so that it is very easy to read on the monitor or in a color print.

[jmqrsq]

I tried all of the alignment options and it doesnt change. Wierd. Can you change it after creating the custom fill pattern or do you have to set that during creation?

[patricks]

You can change it after the fact, just tried it here.

[kmgates]

I tried all of the alignment options and it doesnt change. Wierd. Can you change it after creating the custom fill pattern or do you have to set that during creation?
Not to keep beating a dead horse (though since this thread has been revived many, many, many times, I'm gonna go with it's okay):

I was having the same issue as jmqrsq, in that the pattern just wouldn't align with the wall no matter which option i chose. The issue seems to be that I was trying to use the pattern via a view filter, as ghale suggested. Once I changed the wall's 'coarse scale fill pattern' to the rated wall drafting pattern (and aligned to element), and got rid of the filter, that solved the problem. Though that brings it back to the issue that ghale was trying to avoid; if it's built into the wall type, it'll cause performance problems. Has anyone run across this as an issue, the performance problems? Does it take a huge project for it to be an issue?

[ghale]

We have been using these patterns on a fairly large project without any perceivable performance issues. It is built into the wall type as the material for the core structure and is defined as its own material. That way all disciplines, could see it in any view. If the discipline wants to turn it off, then they can choose a course scale or a view filter to turn it off.

Applying the patterns through view filters may be causing the problem with the alignment. I'll give it a try.

[sbrown]

These only work in Coarse views.

[matrix_rdpill]

Here is the million dollar question, can these wall hatch patterns "fire ratings" be seen in
in medium view and not coarse view? As you may know, in the coarse view, the walls
looses it's "detail" look. Is there a work around?? Please advise

[greg.mcdowell]

Yes. Apply them to unique materials (metal stud-1 hour, etc.) and assign to the correct Wall layer.

[Archman]

..........

[carmen.martinez]

I use this program http://www.cadopolis.com/autocad_addons/GlobalCAD_Hatch-Manager.shtml
It is very easy to use

That is just our standard for rated walls, we use one gap for smoke partitions

I'll try to get around to making a 4 hour but I can't guarantee anything soon


I tried importing the file but the ratings don't show the gaps, it's filled solid. Do I need to change the import scale?