Doors - Head Height incorrect?

[dbaldacchino]

I just noticed this so I'm not sure if it's a new RB9 thing or not....

When selecting a door and going to it's properties, there is a "Head Height" under "Other". The weird thing is that this parameter doesn't show up when you go to edit the family or start a door from scratch fom the template. But the worst part is that it really doesn't report Head Height, but Door Height. Is this some bug or am I missing something? It's really misleading. Thanks!

[aaronrumple]

I just noticed this so I'm not sure if it's a new RB9 thing or not....

When selecting a door and going to it's properties, there is a "Head Height" under "Other". The weird thing is that this parameter doesn't show up when you go to edit the family or start a door from scratch fom the template. But the worst part is that it really doesn't report Head Height, but Door Height. Is this some bug or am I missing something? It's really misleading. Thanks!
There are some parameters that Revit will automatically construct as families are loaded. Sill height and head height are two of these and will be created automatically for both doors and windows. In the case of the door, it will take the parameter "Height" and use that + the sill height for constructing the head height. Height is also a parameter built into the door family. If you don't use Height but make up your own parameter and leave Height set to 0 or some arbitrary value - Head Height will be screwed up. Sill height always uses the bottom factory provide ref. plane. Adding your own ref. plane in below that will not affect the sill height.

All of this could be made a lot clearer to the end user.

[dbaldacchino]

Thanks a lot Aaron.

Here's the deal....and I'm not sure if this is just our convention or whether it applies only to commercial etc. By "Head Height" we typically are interested in the top of the frame elevation. So if I have a 4" head width and my door is 7'-0", then my Head Height is 7'-4". This way we can check masonry coursing easily. In the default Door family template, Height refers to the door height. It seems that Head Height reports the Height of the door and ignores the thickness of the frame. Shouldn't head height be Height of Door + Sill Height + Frame Thickness at Head?

The template should at least let the user define what Head Height is, as perhaps this might differ. I might have to re-adjust all my families to make this work. What confuses me is that I thought under 8.1 I was getting the right Head Height and this occurred to me as a complete surprise. I could have just overlooked it though too!

[aaronrumple]

Thanks a lot Aaron.

Here's the deal....and I'm not sure if this is just our convention or whether it applies only to commercial etc. By "Head Height" we typically are interested in the top of the frame elevation. So if I have a 4" head width and my door is 7'-0", then my Head Height is 7'-4". This way we can check masonry coursing easily. In the default Door family template, Height refers to the door height. It seems that Head Height reports the Height of the door and ignores the thickness of the frame. Shouldn't head height be Height of Door + Sill Height + Frame Thickness at Head?

The template should at least let the user define what Head Height is, as perhaps this might differ. I might have to re-adjust all my families to make this work. What confuses me is that I thought under 8.1 I was getting the right Head Height and this occurred to me as a complete surprise. I could have just overlooked it though too!
Ideally what would happen is that the factory would get all the industry standard parameters in the family. I agree, head height is top of frame - not top of panel. As such I use panel height for the door and then height to define top of frame. It all gets down to the basic object model of BIM. We really should all be using the same terms and setup if we're to trust BIM. the factory needs to take the lead on this.

[dbaldacchino]

Agreed. I'm gonna have to modify my door families for now to reflect this but I'll file an SR as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for your input :)

[ejburrell67787]

We schedule Structural Opening sizes which avoids the issue of leaf (panel) sizes and cill / frame thicknesses etc. and also gives us the correct coursing levels for the openings. We do schedule component sizes (ie door set) and leaf sizes (panel) but they are easy to check against the SO size and see when they don't add up. (which a contractor kindly picked up for me on some of my schedules :Oops: )

[dbaldacchino]

We schedule door panel sizes and then we show frames in elevation and assign a frame type to the door panel in the schedule.

I can make this work by making my width and height become the rough width and rough height. I created door width and door height parameters and made them my old width and height. Now the head height is reporting the right number. The drawback is the fact that Rough Height and Rough Width becomes redundant and not used. And now I have to correct my door schedules to pick up the new parameters.

[BWG]

Wouldn't head height from top of frame be incorrect for doors in walls that are not masonry?

[dbaldacchino]

Well, for commercial construction I guess the answer is no. We do mostly hollow metal frames and the head height would actually be to the very top...then it's clipped and grouted, even in a gyp wall. I'm not sure if the same applies to residential....there might be geographical differences too. That's why I think the template should somehow accomodate these differences. The current doors template assumes that the Head Height is the Height parameter + Sill Height, which is a problem for us. As I said, there is a solution but you end up with extra parameters....in my case the Rought Height and Rough width aren't being used as the Width and Height are now taking their place to make it work.

[ejburrell67787]

Wouldn't head height from top of frame be incorrect for doors in walls that are not masonry?We set out door Structural Opening sizes to brick coursing in any case as this suits standard UK door set sizes. If the door is in timber or steel frame, the door frame still gets packed out and benefits from the tolerance of the SO size.

[aaronrumple]

Wouldn't head height from top of frame be incorrect for doors in walls that are not masonry?
No. That is the door head height. Not the framing rough opening or the masonry rough opening...

[jcoe]

This is some great insight into door behaviors and I also agree that a lot of these issues need to be addressed by the factory. This thread has answered a lot of questions I have had about doors but the one thing I would like to know is why do my doors come in at a default sill height of 3'-6" and where is this value determined? There is no relationship between this value and the family and I would like to set this value to 0'-0" for my doors. (Image attached).

[dbaldacchino]

The problem is probably due to how the family is built. Is your reference level in your family set at the base of the door or is it at 3'-6" from the base of the door? That would explain it.

[Calvn_Swing]

I too would love it if the factory would consult with some door manufacturers and get all the industry standard parameters into the door families. That being said, I'd still like to be able to remove or redefine these parameters. It's a pain that we have to work around or ignore these parameters completely. It works ok in-house, but as soon as you send a model to someone else, like a contractor, and they see some silly head height that doesn't correspond to the actual height, they assume you don't know what you're doing and bid the job higher because of it.

Give me more control!!!

[jcoe]

The problem is probably due to how the family is built. Is your reference level in your family set at the base of the door or is it at 3'-6" from the base of the door? That would explain it.
This too was one of my first thoughts, but the reference level is showing 0'-0" in the family. I have attached the family if anyone would care to take a look.

Thank You

[Calvn_Swing]

I know exactly why! - Sort of...

you see, you're defining the vertical origin of your family with the reference plane in the middle of your panel. While this might make sense to you, it confuses Revit to no end. It determines the "sill" height as the distance from the "level" to the "vertical origin" which means that the vertical origin must be the bottom of the door.

To fix your family:

Simply uncheck "defines origin" on the center reference plane in one of the elevation views.

If none of the ref. planes are set as "defines origin" then Revit assumes the Level defines the origin giving you a sill height of 0. If you want a different sill height, simply create a new reference plane, make it the origin, and move it 1" above the level. Your sill height is now 1".

[dbaldacchino]

I think you got it....I was thinking that your door was actually shifting 3'-6" within your wall but it does come in correct. The relationship between the origin and the reference level defines the sill height. In my door families, the ref. planes defining origin are drawn on the reference levels because that's where the sill height is. For windows, your ref. plane defining origin is at the window sill at a certain distance from the reference level. You have no control over the sill height before placement when in the project environment. It comes in at what's been defined in the family.

[jcoe]

Thank you for the help guys. This solved my issue perfectly. I had a feeling it was something simple but I just could not put my finger on the problem. It just goes to show you that noone is smarter than all of us.

[Andrew Dobson]

I have a related issue. I have trouble getting a door (or window) to have a cill that sits below the reference level.

A typical example is an external door with a stone cill, the top of which should be at finish floor level. I always have to set the the cill height to be a minus value to get the cill below floor level, even though the cill is below the reference level in the family editor.

Is there a trick to get this to work how I want it to?

[dbaldacchino]

There should be no need for a trick. If you sketch your sill extrusion with the workplane being the Ground Floor in the family editor and then give it the correct thickness, when you insert the door in your project, that sill will be below the host level.