Revit Whack-A-Mole (Object Alignment-Association)

[jtobin.68416]

I played a disturbing game of Revit Whack-a-mole this week, and I’d like to find out how to avoid playing it again. Revit Whack-a-mole is that too familiar game where as you move one wall in a model other walls start to move in parts of the model that you can’t see, so you have to dash over to fix dimensions there too.

On a four-story project in our office we had some dimensions ‘drift’ out of alignment, and as we fixed walls on one level, walls on other levels were moving also. In truth, we may have contributed to our own problems, but I’m not sure.
We had copied the walls from one level to the others, and even the dimensions got copied from one view to the others. Even after we unlocked and deleted dimensions however, we had to unconstrain when prompted, and then the whole building started to drift off, we‘re not sure why.
I’ve had similar issues in the past moving foundation walls and then finding superstructure above has moved with it.

I guess my question is multifaceted:

1. Is there a way to disable these unintentional internal relationships between items in the model, when they occur?

2. Are there any best practices on how to dimension walls to avoid this kind of thing? I’ve thought about using reference planes to dimension to the exterior walls, and then dimension interior walls from those planes.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I’m sure there must be some ways to minimize this. Thanks in advance.

John Tobin

[dpollard909366]

using reference planes is a great strategy.

[ejburrell67787]

When you select an object to move it, there are a bunch of options in the options bar that you can select - Constrain / Disjoin / Copy / Multiple. If you select Disjoin then no other objects will move with it.

(Of course this can be counterproductive in some cases too)

[Elmo]

What you could do is pin your walls. This way they wont move until you want them to.

[bowlingbrad]

I'm assuming that you selected some dimensions that referred to walls you didn't want to move. I think these dims maintain their relationship to the original wall. This is just my hypothesis.

[Andre Baros]

When walls are drawn in alignment with each other, ie center lines, or faces align, Revit will automatically lock them together. If you move one wall, and another wall directly above is aligned to it, Revit will move it for you. If you're moving core walls in a high rise, this can be very useful. SOMETIMES you don't want the second wall to move automatically. As was stated above, you can use the "disjoin" option as you move one wall, but that doesn't simply disjoin the wall above or below, it disjoins everything and can require a lot of cleanup.

Two workarounds which help are:
Copying the wall instead of moving it and then deleting the old one.
OR
Coping to the clipboard the "other wall" (the one that's also moving) deleting it, moving your wall, and then pasting back the other wall using the past aligned command.

This is a "feature" which is usually quite helpful and you don't even notice it (like when you move a wall and all the windows and doors come with), but can drive you nuts when you need to turn it off.

[Wes Macaulay]

Pinning walls can sometimes interfere with wall joins -- pin the grids instead and align-lock the walls to the grids using whatever wall justification that makes sense (i.e. core face exterior). I find ref planes get used a lot by users so having some that are going to be retained (for wall alignment) as well as all the other temp ref planes gets confusing -- avoid having many ref planes in a view.

Move with disjoin checked is good advice as well.

[ejburrell67787]

Pinning walls can sometimes interfere with wall joins -- pin the grids instead and align-lock the walls to the grids using whatever wall justification that makes sense (i.e. core face exterior). My experience also, although with columns rather than walls.

[jtobin.68416]

Many thanks for all the excellent input.

I found the 'disjoin' option on the Move command toolbar, but it is grayed out (as if automatically selected) for the Copy command.
Does anyone know if 'Copy to Clipboard' also uses a default 'disjoin'?

I guess in general I'm not a fan of these automatic move features, and they can be hard to overcome when problematic.
When I have multiple floors to align I either use dimensions, or make a view depth through many floors, with only walls displayed, and assign some lurid color to the Beyond linetype so I can easily spot misalignments.

Again, thanks.

John Tobin

[Scott D Davis]

Many thanks for all the excellent input.

I found the 'disjoin' option on the Move command toolbar, but it is grayed out (as if automatically selected) for the Copy command.
Does anyone know if 'Copy to Clipboard' also uses a default 'disjoin'?
Copy does not need a disjoin, because the copied oject will have its own new set of relationships to the other objects around it.

[mibzim]

I've noticed that revit 9 has much stronger relationships between elements - the kinda thing u've been talking about John.

we have had instances where we have moved or deleted elements and taken others with it. Aligning in sketch mode also seems to maintain angles sometimes, which doesnt help.

We have had to be extra carfeul with this lately, but it has often come down to how we have initially sketched the wall / floor / roof etc. Using the pick command instantly sets up a strong relationship between elements - especially the pick wall command. Often when i need a floor sketch that is initially related to walls but wont be very soon, i pick the walls with detail lines and thencopy-paste the detail lines into the floor sketch mode. This seems to overcome even the most powerful of revit's relational inteligence....

maybe this is what has me hooked - revit just sticks every time i move!

[Steve_Stafford]

...Often when i need a floor sketch that is initially related to walls but wont be very soon, i pick the walls with detail lines and thencopy-paste the detail lines into the floor sketch mode. This seems to overcome even the most powerful of revit's relational inteligence...No need to do this, that's why there is LINES on the Sketch design bar. When you use Pick Walls Revit is purposely establishing the connection between the wall and floor for example because it is trying to save you the effort of changing the floor sketch if the wall moves. When you use LINES instead and pick the walls you are just sketching linework and no such relationship is created and you must keep the floor sketch coordinated with the walls that surround it.

[truevis]

No need to do this, that's why there is LINES on the Sketch design bar. When you use Pick Walls Revit is purposely establishing the connection between the wall and floor for example because it is trying to save you the effort of changing the floor sketch if the wall moves. When you use LINES instead and pick the walls you are just sketching linework and no such relationship is created and you must keep the floor sketch coordinated with the walls that surround it.Is that really true? I've had floor sketches break when moving walls and the floor sketch was only made using lines and pick -- not pick walls.

Some kind of setting for Revit to make things not have automatic mysterious relationships would be so useful.

[Wes Macaulay]

Truevis -- I've had the same problem. Draw lines in sketch mode over a wall, and half the time the lines move with the wall even the 'pick walls' option wasn't employed. The answer here is to move all the sketch lines a distance of 0 with the Disjoin option selected. Disjoin kills relationships dead (with all due respect to the makers of Raid, which kills bugs dead).

[Calvn_Swing]

Or, don't try sketching on the lines in the first place. I've found the best way to do sketches is (imagine a square room) draw a box in the middle of the room and use the align tool to move it to the wall edges. You can lock ones you want, and not those you don't. Complete control...

[truevis]

Or, don't try sketching on the lines in the first place. I've found the best way to do sketches is (imagine a square room) draw a box in the middle of the room and use the align tool to move it to the wall edges. You can lock ones you want, and not those you don't. Complete control...Good workaround suggestion, thanks.

Does one become an expert in Revit by knowing many of the workarounds or what? There are so many that I've learned just from reading AUGI. Job security; I suppose.

[Calvn_Swing]

Actually, in this case I think it is just a matter of learning how the software works (thinks). What I do isn't a workaround in my opinion. I just find that in CAD you did your best to place a line in the right place the first time all the time because the snaps worked well that way, it was more efficient, and there were no relationships. In Revit, things are just different. Since EVERYTHING seeks relationships with other objects when you place them, I have just learned not to place a line too close (or on) an object unless I want them to have a strong relationship. It makes life a lot easier. I've just decided that the align tool is my best friend.

[billspa]

"On a four-story project in our office we had some dimensions ‘drift’ out of alignment, and as we fixed walls on one level, walls on other levels were moving also. In truth, we may have contributed to our own problems, but I’m not sure."


Not sure if it's a solution, but we've used one wall or a stacked wall for the entire four storeys without issues of alignment. So it might be within the construction of the model.

Any thoughts?

[cphubb]

William,

That is why pinning and or locking the grids and using them as the wall locater is a good idea. If a wall is align locked to the grid it will not move. Be aware that too many locks can also cause problems so use common sense when locking items

[billspa]

yes, understood...

I was replying to J.Tobin's issue

[jtobin.68416]

William,

Thanks for the reply. It's amazing how long a year ago can seem.
We've been using the disjoin solution very successfully since I posted this.

It's interesting to see that the 'silent' relationships within Revit still can be an issue for users.
I tend to agree with Truevis about having a way to 'un-relate' everything. I'm still extremely leery of creating relationships between anything except attaching Walls to roofs and floors, (which is explicitly intentional of course).

Regards,

John Tobin

[mmodernc]

Is there an align with "disjoin and rejoin with unmanipulated objects having same relatioships as before" option

[Calvn_Swing]

I'm guessing that was a rhetorical question....

But, it would be nice to have a disjoin box for the align tool as well. Many times I've had to align something, and then move other things back.

[mmodernc]

In my case it is almost to the point where I have to use move/disjoined - with all it's dire consequenses - always.
Align also has the problem that if say you want to align a roof or floor edge in elevation or section (or plan) it moves the whole roof instead of just the edge, You can however align the edge of the sketch of the element in EDIT mode which forces you into plan or 3D axonometric in most cases.
There just have to be more options for aligning things.

[Calvn_Swing]

Well, the issue with aligning an object vs. aligning in sketch mode at least makes sense to me. When you're in sketch mode the assumption is that you're changing the properties (including shape) of an object. If you're not, the assumption is that Align is basically changing the position of the object. Not necessarily convenient, but it is at least logical...

[truevis]

In my case it is almost to the point where I have to use move/disjoined - with all it's dire consequences - always....

Move/disjoin is lovely until you've got a dimension on the element your moving; the dimension then gets deleted. (Keynotes & tags, too.)

Disallow join on wall ends is lovely except if that wall was made by face, then then it's not an option.

What's the best way to petition Autodesk for a "stop making unseen relationships automatically" switch? A new AIGI wishlist thread or what?

[Wes Macaulay]

Actually, Revit is getting looser with each release. I was showing someone how walls would stick together when a wall drawn on top of another wall would move when you moved the lower wall... except it didn't in 2008. So I suspect the functionality in this regard is still being tweaked.

[Calvn_Swing]

What's the best way to petition Autodesk for a "stop making unseen relationships automatically" switch? A new AIGI wishlist thread or what?

Or how about a "Start making things consistent" petition? Like all VG controls actually stay in the VG dialog, not migrating some to View Properties, and some to the little tool bar at the bottom of vies, and having some but not all of each menu in the right click context menu.

There are plenty of other "instances" of said inconsistency.

That being said, Wes is right. They are tweaking this stuff all the time. Hopefully we'll get to a point someday where they won't need to tweak much anymore.

[greg.mcdowell]

They are tweaking this stuff all the time. Hopefully we'll get to a point someday where they won't need to tweak much anymore.

Of course by the time that happens we'll all be using some other software and will begin the process all over again!

LOL

[ITABWODI]

When you select an object to move it, there are a bunch of options in the options bar that you can select - Constrain / Disjoin / Copy / Multiple. If you select Disjoin then no other objects will move with it.

(Of course this can be counterproductive in some cases too)
Thanks for the tip! I just had a problem where I was trying to move a wall, and it was bringing the floor line with it. Selecting the Disjoin option on the options bar did the trick! :)

[truevis]

Or how about a "Start making things consistent" petition? Like all VG controls actually stay in the VG dialog...
The vagaries of the UI I can deal with. But slightly changing the sketch or position of something and having something unpredictable happen to some other element is really bad.

I've found it mostly happens with walls that are at slight angles from other walls. As when modeling an existing building where things aren't square.

I feel completely fluent with Revit but this mystery-association "feature" has caused me plenty of trouble.

How about a Do not associate option when creating walls which would set a Not associated instance parameter which could be set like other parameters?