Groups? Nested Groups?

[sknudsen]

Is there any hope for groups? I'm working on 800,000 sq.ft. hospital that desperately needs groups. Unfortunately, they are not working efficiently and the bugs are endless. Seems groups are very touchy and I'm looking for any other routes? What about using nested groups? Is that going to only complicate things more?

[DanielleAnderson]

Can any of what you need to do be accomplished with nested families?

[greg.mcdowell]

I think that from what I've read groups are most problematic when they're made up of walls. Seems to make some sense... as they get copied around they interact with other walls in the main model, in other groups, in phases and even possibly in design options. All those walls coming together is bound to give Revit fits.

The next time I have to do a project like this I'm going to try building the walls so that they go up through multiple stories (assuming they stack) and grouping the other elements (doors, plumbing, ceilings, etc.) instead and copying them up. My assumption is that since Revit has less to think about it'll be less prone to throwing up flags.

As to whether or not to use nested groups... I think that if the groups that are being nested are shared with other units (perhaps a typical toilet or kitchen configuration) then, yeah, I'd have them as individual groups within the larger... otherwise, no, I wouldn't bother.

[Mr Spot]

I tend to use the multi-story wall option quite a bit for separation walls. Then for interior walls of the group use the disallow join where these walls may interact with other walls in an incorrect manner causing inconsistencies of the group.

Another possible investigation that could be made would be using revit linked files. Remembering that you cannot tag these in the main project but you could setup template plans in the host file and then use the visibility to match the view.

HTH.

[jeff.95551]

I'm having those same issues with groups - they don't seem to behave consistently, especially when mirrored and rotated (which I have to do for unit plans). I would love to set them up as families, but haven't gotten that far in the family editor to figure out how to put in walls, etc. and have them take on the properies of the walls et. in the project. I've actually gotten to the point where I will put all of the structural walls in place throughout the model, but not propogate the rest of the unit information throughout the model - not great for MPE guys, but it doesn't seem to have any huge impact on the CD set (except for making it smaller...). I'll just use the room label to communicate the plan type with a label for orientation or flipping. I use nested groups all the time - mostly for furniture and things that repeat, like kitchen layouts, across different plans. I haven't noticed any hiccups with how those work.

[Wanderer]

I tend to use the multi-story wall option quite a bit for separation walls. Then for interior walls of the group use the disallow join where these walls may interact with other walls in an incorrect manner causing inconsistencies of the group.

Another possible investigation that could be made would be using revit linked files. Remembering that you cannot tag these in the main project but you could setup template plans in the host file and then use the visibility to match the view.

HTH.this may be a dumb question, but, if you've got a single wall running up through multiple stories, do you encounter any sort of problems with that that you need to work around?

[greg.mcdowell]

the only issues I know are that you have to manually join the walls to floors and ceiling to get the linework to look correct in sections and that since it's not technically how it's built you won't get an accurate lengths if you schedule them (though the area of the wall would still be close enough)

[Wanderer]

the only issues I know are that you have to manually join the walls to floors and ceiling to get the linework to look correct in sections and that since it's not technically how it's built you won't get an accurate lengths if you schedule them (though the area of the wall would still be close enough)alright, that's sort of what I was assuming (only a rudimentary understanding of revit, here, but, I do try to keep up). Thank you for taking the time to answer. :)

[Mr Spot]

but haven't gotten that far in the family editor to figure out how to put in walls, etc. and have them take on the properies of the walls et. in the project.

You can't create items like walls externally as they are system families...

[ejburrell67787]

Is there any hope for groups? I'm working on 800,000 sq.ft. hospital that desperately needs groups. Unfortunately, they are not working efficiently and the bugs are endless. Seems groups are very touchy and I'm looking for any other routes? What about using nested groups? Is that going to only complicate things more?I think a few of the key issues to watch out for with groups are
- rotating / mirroring / flipping the group can mess up families within the group (something to do with insertion point / orientation of family? eg a sink comes out of alignment in a kitchen group when mirrored, I assume this is because of the where the sink is in relation to the ref planes in the family)
- hosted families within a group need something to be hosted on when re-inserted, even if the host isn't in the group
- instances in a group are the same in every group - ie can't have different marks such as door numbers in different flats if they are all repeats of the same group.

Nested groups have worked for me, but on smaller projects than yours, so have grouped walls (flat partitions typically).

Sometimes grouping elements is a quicker way of distributing them around a project, but not a long term solution - ie once the group content/design/location etc is fixed then the groups can be ungrouped and any customisation (eg door numbering) can be done.