Imported DWG linewt controlled by Model Linewt?!

[dbaldacchino]

I didn't come across this before and wasn't expecting it to haunt me now. Why are the lineweights of imported dwg files (in drafting views) controlled by Model Lineweight thicnkesses, which are scale dependant? That's not how we did dwg drawings!

When drawing with pen colors in mind, one would decide what thickness the resulting line was to be and then select the right layer or color to get the desired result. So if I want a 0.02" line, regardless of whether I'm at 1/8" scale or 1/2" scale, I would use a line color corresponding to a 0.02" line, say Pen 7 (white/black). But I wouldn't be bothered with scale.

So with this in mind, I thought that dwg files import/link using the Annotation lineweights. Now I come to find out that they're controlled by Model Line Weights. If I set these to make my dwgs print correctly, I'm going to end up messing up all other Revit sheets. Any suggestions? Can you tell I'm freaking out? :banghead:

[dbaldacchino]

Am I the only one that thinks this is odd? I cannot find any logic why this is so. I couldn't even find any documentation about this....all I found was that you can map a pen number to a Revit lineweight (1-16). But there's no mention that the lineweight is a Model Lineweight. Logic tells me it should be Annotation Lineweight, because when we draw in Cad, the only thing we care about is what the printed line's thickness is, and scale has nothing to do with it (we also care about the size of text and dimensions if we put them in model space). I'd like to hear some views if possible. Thanks!

[Steve_Stafford]

If you link a dwg floor plan into a Revit plan and it depicts walls you'll want the pen to match the pen of the real walls in Revit true?

If the pen in the dwg file is dependant on annotation pen settings then it would be possible to have a Revit wall represented with a different pen than the dwg wall is when you change the scale of the view.

If the dwg was never visible in another view and not possible to do so then it might make sense to be limited to just annotation pens. Since it is just as possible to place a dwg so it is visible in many views at different scales they need to be able to adjust the pen according to scale in sync with model objects that might also be present.

[dbaldacchino]

If you link a dwg floor plan into a Revit plan and it depicts walls you'll want the pen to match the pen of the real walls in Revit true?
True, yet if I want my walls to plot at 0.02" lines, in ADT I set them to pen 7 and map my plotter to print 0.02" for pen 7. I always plot walls to that thickness, whether they're 1/8" or enlarged to 1/4". In fact in CAD, you'd just x-ref and x-clip your original baseplan at a different scale and plot away. Your walls in both the 1/8" and the 1/4" will plot at 0.02"....with pen 7. So with the same train of thought, I'd map pen 7 to lineweight 2 in Revit, and expect lineweight 2 to plot at 0.02". I honestly have not found use for the scale system of lineweights yet (in fact, I see it as neat, but unnecessary).


If the pen in the dwg file is dependant on annotation pen settings then it would be possible to have a Revit wall represented with a different pen than the dwg wall is when you change the scale of the view.
Yes, I can see some use...if I'm plotting at 1/32", I might want control over the wall lineweight and instead of 0.02", I'd set it to 0.015", otherwise I end up with a mess since the lines start overlapping at that scale.


If the dwg was never visible in another view and not possible to do so then it might make sense to be limited to just annotation pens. Since it is just as possible to place a dwg so it is visible in many views at different scales they need to be able to adjust the pen according to scale in sync with model objects that might also be present.
I can understand this, I guess we're just using dwg's differently. Most are in drafting views as standard details, which cannot display model elements, so naturally I assumed that they would use annotation lineweights (and nothing in the documentation states which one is being used, so my brain filled the gap with what I thought to be the most logical answer). It just seems contradictory to me. For our current workflow using DWG files mainly as details in drafting views, site layout or casework backgrounds (had to leave a couple things out of the first Revit project!), I would say that I'd need to associate my dwg lines to Model Lineweights only 1% of the time, because we rarely use a dwg in a plan view and display that at different scales and expect the lineweights to change.

I appreciate your thoughts though.

[Steve_Stafford]

...I honestly have not found use for the scale system of lineweights yet (in fact, I see it as neat, but unnecessary)...To do what Revit does automatically when printing you have to print using different pen tables and know to do it...

Oh, unless you've removed them, you use them everytime you plot the same building in different views using different scales. Do things look good? Then itsaworkingut :smile:

[dbaldacchino]

Ok Mr. smart :) When I started the project, I began with an empty template and pen weights were the only thing I didn't mess with, except annotation lineweights. And so far everything has been working out. That's why I didn't want to ruin the settings due to our dwgs printing with the "wrong" lineweights. Because by fixing a lineweight at a certain scale due to a dwg, I'm bound to mess something else!

I'm sorry for being difficult but I just don't see any major advantages with this current functionality for the way we work. I might have to reserve the first 7 or so lineweights for imported dwgs (making them the same for all scales) and then use the rest with differing thicknesses at different scales for Revit model elements.

[mrkickback]

REVIT is more of a modeling tool to develop collaboration between disciplines. During this grey area transitional phase you may want to develop all your plan work in REVIT and then link in all your Autocad typical/non-typical details into REVIT using drafting views..then copy them into the appropriate sheets. If your linking in plans from Autocad to REVIT it really defeats the purpose to include REVIT as a tool. Hope this helps. Another tip....ARIAL seems to be the choice of font that looks decent enough to be included in your Autocad files AND when linked into REVIT drafting views. May the force be with you young Sky Walker. GOD speed.

Crape....I wouldnt have posted this bad boy if I'd known I was a year late. Hopefully it can help someone else.

[dbaldacchino]

Thanks for the comments; by the way, the thread is over a year old ;) The reason I raised this issue before was because, for example, when I show a wall in plan in 1/8" in a dwg, we use one color and map it to a certain line weight, but in a detail view, the wall linework will use a different color and be associated with a different line weight (probably heavier). So Revit's line weight system makes sense, but when you're linking in dwgs where the thought about what color to use has already been made by the user, if you then assign line weights that can change with scale, well, then it's a mess. To try and clarify the point, if I drew wall linework in white at 1/8", 1/2" and 1" scale details, the Revit's model line weight system works like a charm because I can map white to, say, line weight 7 and I can assign different thicknesses at different scales. But since I make the drafting decision in the dwg by changing my line color
(which maps to different line weights), then I don't want to have Revit re-figure that out for me. It becomes virtually impossible to manage in my opinion.

So in light of this, we decided that 10 scale dependent line weights were more than enough for us. So we use line weights 1 to 10 for our model elements. Then, we reserved 11-16 to be "fixed" line weights (they don't change with scale. You simply achieve that by typing in the same line thickness for all scales). So then for our import settings, we mapped the colors used in the dwg to line weights 11-16 (we found that we used about 5 to 6 line weights in our dwg files, so this worked great). Now when I link/import a dwg, white is always going to be a certain thickness, regardless of scale. Hope this is a bit more clear.

[jontramos]

So I realize this is an old thread, but I am running into this issue now and so far I have found it very enlightening.

Dave, has your method of using pens 11-16 for your linked ACAD files been a continued success? If so, could I trouble you for a screenshot of your lineweights table?

- Jon

[dbaldacchino]

Not a problem...yes we still use that. It's very consistent because the dwgs are done the same way. I'm attaching a screenshot...notice how the line thickness doesn't change with scale. The only issues you run with are if any custom families that we create use any of those lineweights and we then click the Edit Family...the lineweights resort to the "hardcoded" lineweights. This is a known issue (very annoying) but you can just turn on thin lines and be done while editing :)

[jontramos]

Thank you Dave, this is very helpful.
I have been very frustrated with the fact that our linked ACAD details have been displaying in all different lineweights for different scales... It is really easy to see the different line thicknesses on the border around our details because they are close together on the sheet. I have been getting S#!T from my P.M. about this for a year now, and I have not been able to come up with a reasonable solution (until now).

I think I will implement a very similar strategy in our firm. Thank you again.
- Jon

[dbaldacchino]

Glad it helped and I'm actually very surprised that not a whole lot have come across this issue. Maybe most are far ahead into Revit implementation and not using DWG at all? ;) We're getting there in fact and we link very little nowadays, but there's always an oddball. Try to simplify the lineweights and condense to around 6 (it's convenient to use 11 through 16) to suit your needs by looking at your ACAD pen tables and go from there. Then you build your import settings to map to those line-weights (11-16) and they should result in consistent line thicknesses at all scales.

[mmiles]

This is a great discussion. I have been learning about controlling lineweight quite a bit lately. In addition to the lineweights table I would be curious to see your object style settings, too. The reason is perhaps even related to your puzzlement that others have not come across this topic, until now.

When intially implemented, I was the only one involved with the program, and as such, I subsequently got to determine how things were handled. In my case, 98.6% of the project was done with Revit tools. And, 100% of what was printed was Revit material. I actually did some things in Revit, and then placed exported drawings into ACAD for projects already developed in ACAD. Now that I have got three teams of people using the program, the uproar has begun- of which is the line weights issue is paramount- I am seeing that use of ACAD with Revit is on the rise.

As an example of the issue in our office:
One PM asked for all model objects in 1/4" plan and 1/2" elevations be only 1 line weight, except for cut objects (his thinking; only walls), which would be a 2nd line weight. From there he wanted to use the Linework tool to selectively apply the finished look of the view (as a draftsperson would do.). The importance of the finished look in those views was given more importance than all other aspects of using Revit throughout the duration of this "learning" project.

An other related topic is how to use export settings. The same PM wants exported drawings to look just like our ACAD drawings of plans and elevations- as if done originally in ACAD. The degree of customiziation to our layer settings (i.e. deviations from a recognized standard) does not easily jive with the object styles. So of course the exported files have not looked like those drawings. (let's forget that the consultant is likely to change our settings for their own purposes anyway). in our case, the lines we would draw on a layer in cad do not correspond well with the lines generated by Revit objects at medium and fine detail (which we use in all our plan drawings - whether ACAD or Revit- at 1/4" scale). So far, that experiment has been mostly frustrating. Though, I think I have gotten close to reaching a fair compromise on that exercise.

What I initially did to get the imported ACAD details, as well as the model objects, to look like our ACAD drawings was to change the lineweights scale table in Revit to match those used for the most common scales drawn in ACAD. I then attempted to set the object styles to match as closely as possible the lineweights used in our ACAD files. Basically, Line 1 is used for patterns (filled regions) - so I've gathered - therefore I reserved 2-7 for the lineweights we used in ACAD (1-6). The problem is I have not changed all the scales, just the 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2.

okay....now that I have been rambling.....

[dbaldacchino]

Hi Matthew, I understand what the developers were thinking when they designed this system. Their thought was that you might link in a dwg and use it at different scales, as if it was a model element. However, we never use them that way and these dwgs are typically used as details or as backgrounds and used at one scale only. Basically when you draft, you use Pen "A" and it will always have the same thickness regardless of what scale your drawing is. Obviously when you want a thicker or thinner line, you change the pen. When we draw dwgs, we use color mapping....red will always print a certain thickness, etc., so I was expecting Revit to treat dwg color mapping the same, rather than variable per scale. Honestly nowadays I'm not too worried as we are trying to ditch dwg altogether and the current system of fixing line thicknesses has worked consistently.

When it comes to exporting, then I find Revit's line of thought quite inconsistent. All of a sudden now we instruct Revit to export a particular object to a specific layer with a specific line color, but we don't specify a scale! So why doesn't the import/linking work in the same way? Seems reversed to me. I would rather see the import/linking behavior be applied to exporting and vice versa instead. If I'm exporting to dwg, I might want a cut wall to be magenta at 1/8", but I might want it white at 1/2" so it prints thicker. This makes sense but in Revit, it's only applied to import/linking. That line of thought really applies to a model with views of various scales being exported to multiple flat 2D views rather than the inverse. When I link, almost 100% of the time the dwg is to be used in one view only (one scale). But then again, I don't represent 100% of the users :)

As it currently stands, when you export, as long as you know you want walls to always map to magenta (for example), you can get close to what your cad standards are. But if you want the export to change per scale, you're out of luck. The only painful workaround is to create different export settings for different scales and constantly change them depending on what scale you're exporting.

[jontramos]

OK, my question is indirectly related...

Somehow, over the course of my project, the import .dwg settings were lost. It must have been lost sometime last week and it happened once before about 2 months ago. Now they are all reset back to lineweight 1. After I correct this problem (again) I will have to unload / re-link every linked .dwg file in my project. (which is about 40-60 details).

What causes the import settings to reset?
My only guess is that it happened when we upgraded to Revit 2009 about 2 months ago, and then upgraded again last week when the x64-bit version came out.

Can anyone confirm?

[dbaldacchino]

With the 32 bit version, I'm pretty sure there is no need to remove and relink your CAD imports/links. You might have to reload the links for the updates to happen once you change the import lineweight settings, but that should be all. The path for the lineweight settings is stored in the Revit.ini file, so if you're losing them it could be that your Revit.ini file is being written over by a login script perhaps. Check with your IT.

[jontramos]

Dave,
Thank you for the info. I just checked the Revit.ini file, and sure enough the path for importlineweights.txt is in there. I didn't realize that the importlineweights settings were "pathed". I was under (the incorrect) impression that once the settings were changed, they were imbedded into the project.

So, this seems somewhat problematic. Currently, my importlineweights.txt file is saved into my network project folder because for this project we are using different settings than is typical for our office. How should I approach this problem? Also, if the path is stored in the Revit.ini file, wouldn't that mean that the other drafters on my project would also have to update this path in order for these settings to work for them? What happens if we grab a drafter (with different importlineweights path in their ini file) to assist us right before a deadline? How would that affect our project's linked files?

Sorry for the hailstorm of questions, but I really would appreciate advice here.

Thank you,
Jon

[dbaldacchino]

It is advisable that you develop a firm standard for lineweights and stick to it. As long as your users use your line styles and don't change their mapping, it's the printing station that you should worry about the most. Obviously if one is drawing and uses the wrong line style because it did not appear to be the correct line weight on screen, then you have a problem!

So basically to work around the issue, make sure that before opening the project, change the path to the correct lineweight import file by going to File>Import/Export Settings>Import Line Weights DWG/DXF... and point to the right file. Then start working and later if the user is going to work on another project, do the same to point to the correct lineweight file before opening the next project. But again, I would strongly suggest that you come up with one firm-wide standard :)

[nsinha73]

Revit is Not CAD, neither it will behave like CAD......live with it. It's that simple.
If you can't handle it, I'd suggest stick to AutoCAD which gives you flexibility with line weights. Make your life easier. ;-)

[dbaldacchino]

It's not CAD...it's better :D I see nothing wrong with a global setting vs per project. In fact, it has advantages written all over it because it encourages you to standardize.

[rganter.97143]

Good discussion, thanks Dave for the insight.
In our office we are in the process of largely eliminating Autocad links and imports. However, the scaling of line weights - while quite helpful for plan views, sections & details at different scales - causes issues in native Revit drawings as well, especially site plans. Due to the limitations of Revit's site plan tools we currently have to use a lot of detail lines and filled regions for our site plans. It is quite confusing for users that they have to use super-heavy detail lines styles to achieve the on-paper lineweights that are usually achieved with the Thin, Medium, Wide line styles. So we are thinking of doing what Dave does, use pens 10 to 16 for a set of non-scaling line weights, but I'm afraid this will confuse less experienced users as well.
I'm wondering how others are dealing with this and if anyone has tried eliminating the weight scaling at scales 1/16" and smaller? Plans at these scales are usually set to coarse display anyway, so I'm not sure if the scaling is that critical.

[steedlei]

Hi david, I just posed a thread regarding the linewidth issue of exporting revit sheet with different scale views to DWG. So far no one reply to my thread. However I find answer in this thread. It seems that there is no way to make linewidth differently for same object category (like wall-cut line) in views of different scale in one sheet. So the only solution is to make different export settings for different scale and try to organize to make all views in one sheet same or similar scale.

[dbaldacchino]

Well, I guess it makes sense from a CAD standpoint. What you're doing when you export to DWG for example, is assigning what layer an object belongs to. Once an object is consistently placed on a specific layer, then you can use different plot tables depending on what you're printing. But it's true that if you have a mix of high level details and overall plans for example, the same element (say a wall) cannot print with different lineweights. In Revit we do have that flexibility. In a CAD workflow, you would probably use different layers/colors to depict a wall in a 1" scale detail vs a 1/8" floor plan for example. What you can do to work through your issue is to make sure your exports are ByLayer and then make sure that Revit creates unique files for each view, with the exported sheet being made up of xrefs. In each xref now you can set a different layer color to map to your preferred print lineweights for that scale in CAD.

[steedlei]

Great tip, Thank you Dave! By the way.I do admire your contribution to this forum. Your other posts also give me some good help, thank you.

[dbaldacchino]

Thanks for your kind words. I've learned a ton from these forums and am still doing so today! I encourage everyone to try answer a question here and there....it's very rewarding :)

[ruthellenwilliams]

1989 PM: "Make that AutoCAD drawing look like it was drawn by hand!"
2009 PM: "Make that Revit drawing look like it was drawn in AutoCAD!"

[mmiles]

1989 PM: "Make that AutoCAD drawing look like it was drawn by hand!"
2009 PM: "Make that Revit drawing look like it was drawn in AutoCAD!"


2010: my boss said the other day, in exasperation, "geez, if I did this by hand, it would be done already!" And to stress the point that he still clearly doesn't understand the technology he added, "I don't care if you model the stair, I just want you to draw it."

[ruthellenwilliams]

May the force be with you.