Existing window advice

[BATx2]

I’m looking for advice from experienced Revit users on how to tackle a window family(/ies) for an existing 90 year old high school. The windows in this high school were last replaced in 1975 and are over due to be replaced again. Part of our charge in replacing the windows is to provide historically accurate window design with modern energy efficient technology.

This is my office’s first project in Revit. It’s a 300,000 s.f. high school that’s been added on at least 8 times and gone through a couple dozen renovations. I know it’s huge, but this was my best opportunity to get Revit into the office (it only took two years of begging and pleading (and kicking and screaming!)). I think I’m in Phase Four of the “Six Phases of a Revit User.” I did go through a customized formal 3 day training class before doing anything in Revit. I have the entire building generically modeled already (i.e. generic walls, doors, floors, and roofs). My partner in this “pilot project” adventure is going to tackle the complex wall construction; I get to do the windows.

Of course every addition has different window types and styles. I’ve created families for some of the simpler window types in the building. Though I’m sure I could have found appropriate families on the internet to use for those simple shapes, I wanted to do it myself as a learning exercise. Those windows were generally fixed aluminum frame windows. I created a separate family for each configuration (i.e. single unit, double unit, 2Wx3T unit, 6Wx8T unit etc.) with parameters for overall size and material. The most complex window style is in the original building which I’m working on now.

The attached pdf shows the window elevations and details from the last window replacement. You’ll notice that the interior portion of the window sill is higher than the exterior portion. I have no intention of modeling every single detail of each extrusion (I know better than that). Simple rectangular extrusions or sweeps will be sufficient for the sashes. I don’t need to show the lock at the meeting rail. But how far should I take the rest of the window elements and how do I handle the different heights of the sill? Is it worth while to accurately model the frame profile of the jambs and the head and the sill?

I intend to create these families similar to how I did the simpler ones in that I’ll have a separate family for a three unit window versus a one unit window. I’ll also have separate families for equal upper and lower units versus unequal upper and lower units (with a parameter to set the lower unit height). I know I could use an array parameter to get multiple units, but I’m not ready to tackle that yet, I’ll stick to dimension and material parameters for now.

Unfortunately I won’t be able to reuse these window families for the new windows … I’m sure we’ll be replacing the aluminum frames with aluminum clad wood frames. I have found PScottHull’s contribution to Revitcity of the Pella DH Architect Series. I’m exploring that family to see if I can make use of it for my situation.

I’m sure some of you have dealt with similar circumstances. I’d love to get some feedback on how far to take the model and any tips on how to make this as easy as possible while still showing relatively accurate detail. Success stories and horror stories welcome.

Blake Thomas

[dhurtubise]

Depends on the level of level you want to show. Do you really have to show the existing windows ? If not, make them really simple and move on.

[dbaldacchino]

I agree...just because you can show extra detail, doesn't necessarily mean you should. I mean, if you can clearly convey to the contractor which windows need replaced, then your job is done....spend it researching the best windows to replace them with instead. Your approach to build/edit your own windows in the family editor is great. as that's a very important Revit feature to learn.

[tc3dcad60731]

I agree with Hurtibise above..... I had a 75 year old house with one of the local areas most persnicketty historical review boards. I had to show the entire side of the house that we were working on and it had to be to scale. I used the Pella series from Revit City, modified one of the windows and called it a day. They looked it over and said fine as long as it will look like you show in the modified area.!

In other words... dont sweat it too much!

[BATx2]

Daniel, David and Thomas, thanks for your advice. I’ve created a couple of the window families I need and would like a critique and further advice. I’ve made them as simple and generic as I can stand, I don’t think I’ve gone overboard in the detail. The attahed families are of single unit windows. I’d like to use these families (one for equal upper and lower panes, the other for unequal panes) to create the multi unit families I need.

My intention is to nest these single unit windows into a new family for multi unit windows (probably separate families for each number of units). So … how do I do that?

1. What family template do I use? Window? Generic model wall based? Note: I used the window template to build the original single unit windows. Is that going to give me problems? I tried starting the multi unit family with the window template, but when I tried inserting the single unit component it would only attach to the wall (makes sense, windows need a wall as a host), but I need the window to be in the opening. Do I need to alter the original family to not be hosted (if so, how do I do that) or start with a different template for the multi unit family?

2. In the original single unit families I’ve created multiple family types (which adjust height and width), will this be a problem in the multi unit family? I will want to be able to choose the overall height and width in the multiple unit family and have the single units adjust accordingly.

3. Have I used the right height and width parameters in the single unit families in order to link them into the multi unit family? Or do I need to create different/additional parameters for “unit height” and “unit width” in the single unit family? ( I don't plan on ever having "unit height" different from "height")

I've tried reading through some of the old threads on arraying nested families and have just gotten confused. For now I think I'll stay away from arrays, but I still want multiple nested units to parametrically update when I change the overall height and width parameters.

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Blake Thomas

[tc3dcad60731]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but here goes my opinion / further advice.

1. Use the window template to create the windows. To answer the rest of part 1 I defer to David.

2. I have not tackled this in Revit but I did extensive programming in MDT (mechanical desktop) and it is all about the same. Create the single unit and flex to ensure that it works. Then set your formulas so that it reads the information from the single unit and divides accordingly for the multi-unit model. DO NOT try to work on three or more windows at once. If you can get two to work then change appropriately for three or more.

3. Always name your parameters so that it will trigger your mind or someone elses mind as to what you are refferring to. If you need to change it s-ht for single then that would be wise.


I will have to defer everything else to the others. Again I have done some basic Revit families but most of my experience was with MDT. In that we used Differential Equation style formulas to determine spacing, number of instances, etc. In Revit you have the ability to do the same thing but in a different format and you group them, too!

Having said that...... The windows look great but you might want to trim some of the overlapping segments so that it does not appear to overlap. Then if it is a one time view deal then it might not matter.

[dbaldacchino]

Hey Blake,

Sorry to respond late but I was unavailable the past week. I'll try catch up abit here....

First of all I think you have enough detail and your attempts seem just fine. Make sure you use Join Geometry so you don't end up with those overlapping edges in your extrusions. Using the Window template should be just fine. I would delete the opening inside the template, load your window into it and place one (this will cut the wall in the window template). You can then use arrays to drive the amount of windows you have in your multi-unit families and create types accordingly. If you're afraid of arrays and don't need a lot of flexibility in terms of the number of units in the multi-unit windows, I think you could just use visibility parameters. Before nesting your windows though, I would make the width and the height parameters INSTANCE parameters, so you can easily control them within your multi-unit window family, although I don't think it's necessary.

You need to think about how you want to define your multi-unit windows. Do you wat to specify a width and number of units and have the family adjust the width of each unit to fit? Or do you have fixed size units that you want to repeat a number of times? If it's the latter, then you can create your multi-unit types by just specifying the number of units in the array and drive your "width" parameter with a formula for scheduling purposes only. Ffor example, if your window unit is 4ft. wide and you want three units, your width parameter in the multi-unit family would be unit width x # of units=12ft. If you want to specify the width and the # of arrays and have these nested windows adjust, it's going to be a bit more involving and will require you to tie the width & height params. of the nested units with other width and height params. in the hot family. In this case, the width would have to be calculated, while it sounds like the height would be pretty much the same as the nested window height.

If you don't want the nested units to "flex", you can use label parameters to swop between different unit types loaded in your host family. If you want to flex them instead, the height and width parameters would need to be mapped to other parameters in the host family (the width would be driven by a formula in this case as it's a factor of the overall width). I suggest learning about Arraying though....don't shy away from it. Take a look at some louver families and reverse engineer how they work.

Parameter names can be anything you want, so it doesn't matter. What matters is that they are of the same type. If your heights are the same, then it's easier as in your multi-unit family, your Height will be equal to your Unit Height. As described above, your widths will have to be calculated if they're adjustable so the array will fill your entire width. Or if the units are of fixed width or you want to swop family types, then assign a Label parameter to your nested window so you can choose from loaded types inside your host family and just array them. You can then create multiple types within this host family by specifying a combination ot unit types and # of arrayed elements. Once more, if you want to schedule the overall width, then this would be a calculated parameter which would be used in a schedule, but in this case is not necessary to flex your multi-unit family with the "fixed" approach.

If you cannot figure out how to make it work, please post a specific requirement and I'll do my best to reply with an example.