Best way to build towers in Revit?

[olakahahola]

Hi i am currently working on a tower in revit for my firm. And i just wanted to start a topic based on what would be the most effecient way in modeling them. Currently the best way i have figured out how to model the tower, is
1) making the core walls with their furred out walls go all the way through the tower. The reason behind this is one big wall is probally takes less infomation than a single wall for every single level.
2) then creating partition walls for the room seperation/ hallway, for levels that have differnt layouts. For example the first two levels are totally differnt from the fourth level. And the fifth level the partition walls go up to level 49, because they have the same layout, and the last three levels have their own floor plan.
3) then creating groups for furnature and interior walls that seperate the rooms/bathroom/closet.
4) I have decided to use furnature familes that are not 3d, and only have a elevation, and plan profile. To cut done on file size...to make work flow more managable.
5) For the curtain wall. I think making them go floor by floor, and creating a group out of the typ curtain wall so if you change panel size or mullion placement on one floor it will automatically change on all levels.
6) For stairs using multistory stairs for the levels that have the same floor to floor height.
(have been having a bit of trouble with this...because the calculation seems to fall a fraction of distance off and it adds up when you go up 40 something levels.. If anyone had any suggestions please let me know.)\

These are some of the things i have been doing to work on the tower. I don't know what other people are doing, so please let me know...andy help would be nice.....

thanks,
O

[sbrown]

It sounds like you've got a good plan.

If you are just starting the tower massing and floor area faces make quick work of creating a large building.

As for the walls going up multiple stories, I'm with you all the way, I just finished a project(only 16 stories) but did the units floor to floor and it was a huge performance mistake(Having 250 groups, instead of about 20). Next time I will take all the floors that stack and have one group for each unit type that has its walls spaning the floor to floor, then I will make a repeating detail component with a filled region to clean up the full building sections instead of using join geometry(the problem with the full ht. method).

As for the exterior curtain wall, I would use a curtain wall that goes full height set to have grids at your floor to floor heights. Unless you are using window wall, then the way you describe is best.

[greg.mcdowell]

Is this your current work flow? I ask because I'm curious how item 5 (curtain walls floor-to-floor and grouped) is working out for you. We did one where the wall went 30 stories and it killed the model... all those mullions. I know that making a Panel Family of repeating areas will make things run smoother but I'm not sure how the group thing will work and haven't made the time to test it.

Furniture with 2D Symbolic Lines is a great idea. I wonder though how much more it would add to the project in both file size and usability if there was also a 3D model set to be visible in 3D only... I know it'd make the file size larger but I'm less concerned about that than I am with usability of the model. And will this work if the furniture is at an angle to the elevation line? I'm thinking it won't but I'm not sure.

I too use stairs with multi-storey selected but haven't noticed any issues with accuracy (haven't really looked for it though either).

[luigi]

Hi i am ...O Welcome Olaka.....Hahola

I don't have anything to add other than Olaka is what I call one of my nicest friends, she is polish, and her name is Aleksandra,Ola for short and Olaka in cute form....

Hope you get the help you need.....I would also search for World trade center and see what tips SOM has given......

[olakahahola]

Is this your current work flow? I ask because I'm curious how item 5 (curtain walls floor-to-floor and grouped) is working out for you. We did one where the wall went 30 stories and it killed the model... all those mullions. I know that making a Panel Family of repeating areas will make things run smoother but I'm not sure how the group thing will work and haven't made the time to test it.

Furniture with 2D Symbolic Lines is a great idea. I wonder though how much more it would add to the project in both file size and usability if there was also a 3D model set to be visible in 3D only... I know it'd make the file size larger but I'm less concerned about that than I am with usability of the model. And will this work if the furniture is at an angle to the elevation line? I'm thinking it won't but I'm not sure.

I too use stairs with multi-storey selected but haven't noticed any issues with accuracy (haven't really looked for it though either).

1)The reason i used grouped floor to floor curtain walls is because of changes to the curtain wall is alot easier to do; for example if you want to change the panel size. you edit the group and the whole curtain wall changes. I also think that if you have groups in your model and you put 50 copies of that group in your model, it should not be that heavy because they all share the same info. I am not a 100% sure on that. I think you can test it out quiet easily.
2) Regarding the furnature i think revit is smart enough to represent the 2d line work on a splayed angle if that is how it sits in reletive to the elevation. Doing 3d furnature, is fine but i don't think you need to have it on every level if it's just the same layout. I would do it for one floor and the others be 2d line work. What i have been doing is grouping room layout walls and furnatures together( everything inside the room except for the boundry walls).
Hope this helps.

[olakahahola]

Welcome Olaka.....Hahola

I don't have anything to add other than Olaka is what I call one of my nicest friends, she is polish, and her name is Aleksandra,Ola for short and Olaka in cute form....

Hope you get the help you need.....I would also search for World trade center and see what tips SOM has given......

Hi ya i know Ola is a really populare Polish nick name, i knew a girl that had that nick name too when i was in college, in RI. Ola is also a common Tibetan nick name given to the youngest child in the family. Ka...ha...hola....is Nepali for "I wonder where he is."
so Ola ka ha hola....would translate to "I wonder where Ola is"
Hey do you know where SOM's info on the WRC is? I would really like to see that model.
well that's all for now.
Revit away.....click...click...click.....(STC.....SaveToCentral....take a nap)..click..click..

[sbrown]

[QUOTE=olakahahola]1)The reason i used grouped floor to floor curtain walls is because of changes to the curtain wall is alot easier to do; for example if you want to change the panel size. you edit the group and the whole curtain wall changes. I also think that if you have groups in your model and you put 50 copies of that group in your model, it should not be that heavy because they all share the same info. I am not a 100% sure on that. I think you can test it out quiet easily.

Unfortunately you are way wrong about this, the more instances of the group the slower the model will perform. Groups are an absolute model killer in my experience. When you edit a group and finish the group it will then regen every instance of the group, so the more instances the longer this takes. Also the more chance for errors to one of the groups. If any of the instances of the group has a problem you will get errors about needing to fix your groups or ungroup them.

Groups seem to be okay while they are just sitting there, its when you edit them or do work that affects them that you will see the problems.

[lhanyok]

2) Regarding the furnature i think revit is smart enough to represent the 2d line work on a splayed angle if that is how it sits in reletive to the elevation.

It won't represent the 2d linework if it is at an angle to the elevation. I tried the 2d method with bathroom fixtures, and had a problem where one bathtub was against a wall that wasn't 90 degrees to the adjacent walls. The symbolic lines did not show up.

[michael.deorsey]

There is no question that groups can be a real problem. They have gotten better with each new release, and the two biggest problems seem to be the number of instances of a group and its interaction with elements outside the group. If you can limit the number of instances of any given group to say 10 you should be golden, and also disallow joins on any walls that extend out of groups and connect to other elements outside the group.

The item on your list that caught my attention is the multistory core walls, I too thought this was a good idea, and built my model that way. For SD and DD this work reasonably well, and I would do it again. But somewhere in DD those walls need to be split into 1 story high elements so that they will join other walls correctly. If you never have a wall joining one of these core walls at a corner, it may not be an issue.

Hope this helps.
Mike

[christopher.zoog51272]

We also take a hybrid approach to core/shear walls The advantages of modeling multistory core walls far out weighs the disadvantages. The advantage of cleaner section graphics alone is a huge (On super large projects join geometry can be a nightmare.)



On the tower project I am working on now (not WTC Tower 1), we model the concrete core walls based on extents of shear wall thicknesses. As the core travels up 118 floors (4 floor below grade 114 above) it changes shape and the walls change thickness, we model to those thickness extents. Any core walls that are not concrete and are not supported by the slab are also modeled their full height. An example would be drywall partitions dividing elevator shafts, which in some cases is 118 floors or around 515 meters. All other non concrete core walls that are supported by the slab are modeled slab to slab. We also model all the concrete link beams in the core. Now, it is important to note that we model the finish walls (furring, etc) separately as this changes a lot depending what floor you are on and what it’s used for, these are nearly always modeled floor to floor.



To echo everyone else, we also try to limit the use a groups wherever possible. We tend to use them for typical toilet rooms, and few other odds and ends. Although this tower does include a hotel from levels 78ish to 104, we have not used groups to create the typical hotel rooms. Mainly because no two units are exactly the same, they all related to the exterior “diamond shaped” diagrid structure and curtain wall the morphs and folds in on itself as it rises to a height of 555 meters, resulting in 114 unique floor plates. Hard to imagine, I know…. I will post images as soon as I am allowed.



Anyway, in additions to everyone good suggestions of using groups sparingly and multi-story core walls being ok, I would add this: If this a super-large tower, try to separate out the curtain into another project, then link it back in. Performance can be greatly enhanced, in fact on our projects we could not do it any other way.



Finally… keep at it….. really tall towers CAN be done in Revit!



Hth,

Z

[truevis]

...Anyway, in additions to everyone good suggestions of using groups sparingly and multi-story core walls being ok, I would add this: If this a super-large tower, try to separate out the curtain into another project, then link it back in. Performance can be greatly enhanced, in fact on our projects we could not do it any other way....Would/does 'disallow joins' on the curtain walls' endpoints (whether in groups or not) make a significant advantage in performance?

[olakahahola]

We also take a hybrid approach to core/shear walls The advantages of modeling multistory core walls far out weighs the disadvantages. The advantage of cleaner section graphics alone is a huge (On super large projects join geometry can be a nightmare.)



On the tower project I am working on now (not WTC Tower 1), we model the concrete core walls based on extents of shear wall thicknesses. As the core travels up 118 floors (4 floor below grade 114 above) it changes shape and the walls change thickness, we model to those thickness extents. Any core walls that are not concrete and are not supported by the slab are also modeled their full height. An example would be drywall partitions dividing elevator shafts, which in some cases is 118 floors or around 515 meters. All other non concrete core walls that are supported by the slab are modeled slab to slab. We also model all the concrete link beams in the core. Now, it is important to note that we model the finish walls (furring, etc) separately as this changes a lot depending what floor you are on and what it’s used for, these are nearly always modeled floor to floor.



To echo everyone else, we also try to limit the use a groups wherever possible. We tend to use them for typical toilet rooms, and few other odds and ends. Although this tower does include a hotel from levels 78ish to 104, we have not used groups to create the typical hotel rooms. Mainly because no two units are exactly the same, they all related to the exterior “diamond shaped” diagrid structure and curtain wall the morphs and folds in on itself as it rises to a height of 555 meters, resulting in 114 unique floor plates. Hard to imagine, I know…. I will post images as soon as I am allowed.



Anyway, in additions to everyone good suggestions of using groups sparingly and multi-story core walls being ok, I would add this: If this a super-large tower, try to separate out the curtain into another project, then link it back in. Performance can be greatly enhanced, in fact on our projects we could not do it any other way.



Finally… keep at it….. really tall towers CAN be done in Revit!



Hth,

Z

Hey Thanks for replying. Youre input has been really good. I have a question regarding changing colum sizes. Did you just create a single colum family that changes sizes that goes up? I am trying to create a parametric colum that can change sizes relevative to levels. I haven't got to it yet, but will let you know if i have any success. I can't wait to see your images.

[jflazatin]

I have encountered difficulty in editing my model. I am working on a 26 storey residential building with curtain walls as groups. Demising walls are groups in typical levels. Interior units in typical levels are also in groups. I have to revise my floor ceiling height for typical level from 9'8 to 9'2 and my penthouse to 11'6 to 11'. What is the best way of attacking this major change. Please help. Thank you.

[damon.sidel]

Hi, jflazatin.

Welcome to the forums for your first post. You've been quiet for quite a few years. :)

In my opinion, having worked on a number of towers with similar grouping strategies, you just have to go for it. Some of the groups will adjust, some will not. Revit will ask you to "fix" the groups by either ungrouping or creating new groups. Create new groups and then sort out the carnage.

Planning ahead can help, too. Write down all the group names you currently have before the move, create a simple diagram (could be something as simple as a printed axon that you've annotated by hand with colors or something) of where the groups go in the model. After you change the floor-to-floor heights, you'll be able to go through and see what groups remain the same, which ones Revit created and then you can piece it back together.

With a well-developed model and groups, there is no simple solution when moving floors. However, in my experience, using groups still pays off, even when big changes happen like moving levels.

[MikeJarosz]

Hey do you know where SOM's info on the WRC is?

I worked on the WTC at SOM while it was still in Revit. Look up my earliest posts on this forum (2003 - 2005). SOM's office was and still is only a few blocks from the 9/11 site. I was actually in the subway under the WTC on my way to work when the second plane hit. I exited the subway at Rector Street. I felt I was Dorothy in the middle of the tornado. I tell you this because it explains why you will not find what you are looking for.

Everyone at SOM went through hell in the weeks following 9/11, because we were so close to the site. We even lost one of our architects, Arkady Saltzman, who was at a jobsite meeting in the tower. We had signed a contract with Larry Silverstein just weeks before 9/11 to renovate the place. Little did we know what would soon happen.

Eventually, we wound up as architect for the complete reconstruction of the WTC. Interest in what we were doing was greater than anything I have ever experienced in my life. I was sitting in front of Revit one day, working on toilets. I felt a stranger standing next to me. It was a reporter from the Wall Street Journal who wanted to know about the new building.

Speculation on the new building in the press and elsewhere ran so high, senior management realized the project had to be secured. So, one day each team member was called into a conference room. There sat a team of lawyers. Each of us had to personally sign a non-disclosure agreement. Not just for the firm, each individual team member! For this reason, you have never seen the model published. It was at a very advanced stage and we couldn't show it to anyone.

In time, for reasons I've noted elsewhere, the project was redesigned and switched to ACAD. I have a copy of the original Revit file where it left off, but I'm scared to death of the non-disclosure agreement that I signed. I occasionally show some prints, but never the live file. I do however, update it with each new release of Revit. It's in R2014 right now.

BTW:

Don't run one wall all the way up your tower. Most likely it will thin out as it rises and loads drop off. The shear walls in the core of the WTC started out at 42" and dropped off a few inches every several floors. Planning these dimensional transitions were a major chore. We wanted flush interior walls in the elevator shafts, so the wall thickness dropped off on the exterior side of the shaft shear walls. That made an eccentric load. The transition usually occurred midway between floors, where it wouldn't show in traditional 2D floor plans because it was above the cut plane. But with Revit, we were on top of this problem. I became a better architect using Revit. I found conditions I would not otherwise have discovered without Revit.

95188

(The attachment was published in the Wall Street Journal, so I know it's safe)

[Norton_cad]

Create an area for both rentable and gross. Add levels. Mass model the cores. Use groups to model interior fit out, in a design option format. Use scope boxes to match rentable areas. I like to use surface wall mass modeling for curtain wall facade, (which limits groups to only plan layouts of the fit out. ) but you may have preference otherwise. Save as a central model, with workgroups that match the gross areas per level. Create a separate sub-model for FF&E, Exterior landscape, Lighting & Entourage. Save a render background image of these sub-models, remembering to periodically update as required.
Create the documentation template file, import central model, create a view template per level, plot and issue.
Also bear in mind that any dimensions will break (and need re-doing), on any changes to the file. Any update requires a reload of families , groups, line types, materials (that match), will need updating as well. You could deal with the revisions, and series, as separate entities.

PS: Add to my rep if you Like my post please.

[jflazatin]

Thanks for the reply. I have modified my groups to the heights of my proposed new height for typical levels. The strategy was to change the top level of the walls to unconnected and specify the floor to floor ceiling height minus the thickness of the slab. It worked. I still had lots of groups that had to create new groups. I will sort it out and make them consistent when I successfully move all the levels to the height I want. All levels moved as I proposed except 1. I could not figure out why the level below or above moves? With this dilemna, I now know better how to start a revit model and have lesser pain in going thru moving levels.

[timonawino8758424]

[QUOTE=greg.mcdowell;572219]. And will this work if the furniture is at an angle to the elevation line? I'm thinking it won't but I'm not sure.



IT wont actually work- showing 3d only is the best way to ensure both file size and model usability