Best Practices Floor Building Question

[DanielleAnderson]

Hi all,
We are starting to model another new project in Revit in the office . Just to give some background to go with my questions, this is a residential tower, very skinny, with just one unit per floor. It is high-end and will have lots of detailed finishes. Also, all residential floors will be extactly the same (hopefully groups don't have too many issues here because I think they could work well). In giving advice on how to set this up I have some questions regarding floors:

1) Do you generally include your floor finishes in with the floor slab? Or do you use a separate "finish" floor that sits on top of the slab?

2) If you use a separate finish floor, would that go on an "interiors" workset?

Thanks!
Danielle

[Brian Myers]

Forgive me being new to this concept, but out of curiousity...

Why would you create a separate finish floor? I suppose I'm asking, what advantage would that provide you?

[DanielleAnderson]

I'm not completely sure, that's why I am asking...
There has been some discussion here in the office (mostly by non-revit users) about the best way of doing this. Our spec writer, who is very interested in information extraction using Revit, is adamant that finishes should be separate. This had never occurred to me before, so I thought I would ask to see if anyone else does this.
I suppose maybe - okay, who knows - one might want to turn off finishes and see just structure???

[aaronrumple]

Hi all,
We are starting to model another new project in Revit in the office . Just to give some background to go with my questions, this is a residential tower, very skinny, with just one unit per floor. It is high-end and will have lots of detailed finishes. Also, all residential floors will be extactly the same (hopefully groups don't have too many issues here because I think they could work well). In giving advice on how to set this up I have some questions regarding floors:

1) Do you generally include your floor finishes in with the floor slab? Or do you use a separate "finish" floor that sits on top of the slab?

2) If you use a separate finish floor, would that go on an "interiors" workset?

Thanks!
DanielleYes, and yes...
This is the best way to do it. It allows much faster modeling of the interior finishes. It also allows for much faster manipulation of floor visibility using either worksets or filters.

I actually go one step further and make my base trim a floor hosted sweep. I find it much faster to have the trim follow the floor rather than having the trim on the walls. (And pretty much automatic visibility control when doing 1/8" floor plans where I don't want both the floor finishes or base trim showing up.)

Oh - and if you have an interior designer on staff - make them responsible for this stuff...

[greg.mcdowell]

You might look into the Split Face tool as it was designed to carve up a surface into discreet areas for the application of different materials (i.e. finishes in your case).

A word of warning though... occasionally, while editing things seemingly unrelated to the floor, you'll get an error message about Revit needing to Delete Split Faces... and it's at this point where all your hard work may be for nothing.

I think a separate floor (or better yet a "roof") for floor finishes is an interesting idea. The reason I suggest a Roof is because "roofs grow up" whereas "floors grow down" meaning that if the thickness of either object changes the line between them would stay the same. If you use a floor for your finish layer and it gets thicker you'll overlapping geometry in your floors.

[DanielleAnderson]

You might look into the Split Face tool as it was designed to carve up a surface into discreet areas for the application of different materials (i.e. finishes in your case).

A word of warning though... occasionally, while editing things seemingly unrelated to the floor, you'll get an error message about Revit needing to Delete Split Faces... and it's at this point where all your hard work may be for nothing.

I think a separate floor (or better yet a "roof") for floor finishes is an interesting idea. The reason I suggest a Roof is because "roofs grow up" whereas "floors grow down" meaning that if the thickness of either object changes the line between them would stay the same. If you use a floor for your finish layer and it gets thicker you'll overlapping geometry in your floors.

I understand what you are saying about roofs "growing up" instead of down, but I think it would be safer to offset a floor up an inch, or whatever, then there aren't strange category issues.

We do have an interior designer on this project, so that was my initial thought - that she could just put all her own finishes on (except walls) the model and then the structure can be a separate entity.

This project will be done pretty much entirely by new users, so I am trying to make it comfortable and as fool-proof as possible.

[aaronrumple]

I think a separate floor (or better yet a "roof") for floor finishes is an interesting idea. The reason I suggest a Roof is because "roofs grow up" whereas "floors grow down" meaning that if the thickness of either object changes the line between them would stay the same. If you use a floor for your finish layer and it gets thicker you'll overlapping geometry in your floors.
Depends on the construction type. With wood construction - finishes go on top. With concrete - the slab thickness may vary. However when using concrete - let the floors overlap. Then use join geometry to subtract one from the other. your recess for time will be automatic.

[twiceroadsfool]

Yes, and yes...
This is the best way to do it. It allows much faster modeling of the interior finishes. It also allows for much faster manipulation of floor visibility using either worksets or filters.

I actually go one step further and make my base trim a floor hosted sweep. I find it much faster to have the trim follow the floor rather than having the trim on the walls. (And pretty much automatic visibility control when doing 1/8" floor plans where I don't want both the floor finishes or base trim showing up.)

Oh - and if you have an interior designer on staff - make them responsible for this stuff...


I was just wondering about this at home over the weekend (isnt that sick???). Im contemplating doing a project for a friend of mine (more for the fun of it (again, sick), in which it would be to produce CD's eventually, but would want every room rendered with appropriate floors, etc. Whereas at work i would typically use one "floor" for the entire forst floor, im going to want these broken up for finishes and what not, same with the walls... So i was contemplating using a "structure/base" workset, and a "finish/interior" workset. Then i can build the finish walls as 5'8", or whatever they are, and give them all the specific materials, and keep the studs, etc, separate.

Of course, for design purposes when stuff is all moving around still, im using generic walls, because i think moving a wall would be a PITA if its three walls locked together, lol...

[christopher.zoog51272]

Hi all,
We are starting to model another new project in Revit in the office . Just to give some background to go with my questions, this is a residential tower, very skinny, with just one unit per floor. It is high-end and will have lots of detailed finishes. Also, all residential floors will be extactly the same (hopefully groups don't have too many issues here because I think they could work well). In giving advice on how to set this up I have some questions regarding floors:

1) Do you generally include your floor finishes in with the floor slab? Or do you use a separate "finish" floor that sits on top of the slab?

2) If you use a separate finish floor, would that go on an "interiors" workset?

Thanks!
Danielle
To quote Aaron "Yes and Yes" for us too. We also have gone to through additional step of create a finish level and a structural TOS level. Why would we do this??? well the answer is 2 fold:



1. We have raised flooring (under floor air/access floor) on the vast majority floors, be it at the office stacks or in the hotel with it's 3 floor level per room design. These floors can rise above the slab a half a meter or more. There are several different types of finish floors all above on sitting all the slabs. Conversely there are very few floors where slab is finish, maybe about a dozen mechanical / facade maintenance floors.



2. The exterior enclosure "tapers in" the entire height of the building, so if we sliced our mass at the slab level, our finish floor would stick out of the building, or if we sliced at finish floor our slabs would be too short. Each floor and slab is unique. Not to mention all the slab thickness changes.



There are some disadvantages to this, you have to be aware of bottom consraints when you are modeling. For example, walls are typical drawn on the finish floor levels, but they want to go down to the slab, doors on the other hand, want to be at finish level...not a deal breaker, just something else to think about.



In any event, this may or may not be a valid approach for you, but some food for thought at least.

[cphubb]

This is really an ongoing debate regarding the level of detail that should be modeled vs. what Revit does on its own. Should we make 3 walls for a standard GWB wall? Most would say no. But what if each side is a different color and it is really important for you to know how much red paint and green paint is in the project.

The next question has to do with structures being introduced. Should structure model the slab and the architect provide the finish? Should the slab be copied-monitored into the model and changed based on the floor finish?

I feel this is really a manager answer. How is the team structured? Will the finish being integral to the floor really impact the workflow? How hard would it be to split the floor into different styles with different finish tops? There is no right answer to the question, just be aware the more complex the model the more to manage.
There are some disadvantages to this, you have to be aware of bottom consraints when you are modeling. For example, walls are typical drawn on the finish floor levels, but they want to go down to the slab, doors on the other hand, want to be at finish level...not a deal breaker, just something else to think about.

I think based on your statement regarding the experience level of the team that for this project a single floor will ultimately be the best solution. However the decision must be made early or it will be hard to correct in the future. i.e. move all floors down 1.5" and fix all the walls doors etc. You may want to avoid groups due to their performance issues. Depends on the size and number of groups that need to be updated.