Text orientation

[jpaulsen]

I'm not sure where I learned it cause it was so long ago but it is standard drafting practice to have text read from the bottom or right side of the sheet. Everyone I have talked to is in agreement on this.

However, there is a rather large discrepancy in opinions as to what angle past 90 degrees you should rotate the text. As a matter of fact we are having somewhat of an internal argument on this subject. I have checked a few drafting books but could not even find anything that said text should read from the bottom or right let alone at what angle you should rotate the text.

I have attached a PDF file that shows what I am talking about. The text in the example is all reading from the right and starts to look upside down the further the angle gets from 90.

With that said, I am looking for two things:

People's opinions on what angle you should rotate the text.

And more importantly industry standards for this angle. I am hoping someone may have an old drafting book that documents an angle. If you do have some documentation, a reference to the book or a PDF copy would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I just noticed the PDF is rotated 180. You will need to rotate it in the viewer to see it correctly.

[Ed Jobe]

I moved this thread to the cad standards forum, as this is not a general cad issue, i.e. commands, etc.

[smooth shoes]

If I understand what you are asking... I don't think that there is an industry standard for when you should rotate the text. I work for a surveyor and i deal with situation all the time. Others in this field, as well as myself usually try to rotate the text whenever it is noticeable that the line is not straight up and down.

I agree that the text should be read from the bottom and to the right. That's how I was taught. I'll keep looking for a book or refeerence or something. Good luck with your search.

[cwjean76]

I'm not sure where I learned it cause it was so long ago but it is standard drafting practice to have text read from the bottom or right side of the sheet. Everyone I have talked to is in agreement on this.

However, there is a rather large discrepancy in opinions as to what angle past 90 degrees you should rotate the text. As a matter of fact we are having somewhat of an internal argument on this subject. I have checked a few drafting books but could not even find anything that said text should read from the bottom or right let alone at what angle you should rotate the text.

I have attached a PDF file that shows what I am talking about. The text in the example is all reading from the right and starts to look upside down the further the angle gets from 90.

With that said, I am looking for two things:

People's opinions on what angle you should rotate the text.

And more importantly industry standards for this angle. I am hoping someone may have an old drafting book that documents an angle. If you do have some documentation, a reference to the book or a PDF copy would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I just noticed the PDF is rotated 180. You will need to rotate it in the viewer to see it correctly.
I would like to comment on this. In my experience, in college and in the field, the accepted method of reading text should be the opposite of what you're showing. We tend to read from left to right. Think about this for a moment. If you have a set of drawings that you're going through. The "natural" tendancy is to turn your head to the left and move your body slightly to the right to interpret the drawing. Not the other way around. It's, in a way uncomfortable and inconvienent, with the way that the drawings themselves are produced due to the size of the sheets and of course what side they're bound on(the left, of course). Just putting in my 2 cents.

[H-Angus]

I would like to comment on this. In my experience, in college and in the field, the accepted method of reading text should be the opposite of what you're showing. We tend to read from left to right. Think about this for a moment. If you have a set of drawings that you're going through. The "natural" tendancy is to turn your head to the left and move your body slightly to the right to interpret the drawing. Not the other way around. It's, in a way uncomfortable and inconvienent, with the way that the drawings themselves are produced due to the size of the sheets and of course what side they're bound on(the left, of course). Just putting in my 2 cents.Same here, top to bottom and left to right. This is also what the Acad command 'TORIENT' defaults to when choosing the option of most readable.

[jaberwok]

I would like to comment on this. In my experience, in college and in the field, the accepted method of reading text should be the opposite of what you're showing. We tend to read from left to right. Think about this for a moment. If you have a set of drawings that you're going through. The "natural" tendancy is to turn your head to the left and move your body slightly to the right to interpret the drawing. Not the other way around. It's, in a way uncomfortable and inconvienent, with the way that the drawings themselves are produced due to the size of the sheets and of course what side they're bound on(the left, of course). Just putting in my 2 cents.


You're actually saying the same thing as Jeff, not arguing with him. :cool:

[H-Angus]

You're actually saying the same thing as Jeff, not arguing with him. :cool:Yeah, okay. Its just the from bottom and from right that confuses me. But admittedly I am very easily confused :wink:

[rjcrowther]

I would have to check but I think our Australian Standards cover this for us.

By sticking to this then your example is correct except this first one at 90 degrees, that would have the text rotated 180 degrees. However, I seem to remember a clause in the standard about readability which would suggest the first (leftmost) example would then be correct as it is readable in the context of the sheet ie. following the arrow..

Having now said it is good both ways, I think architectural drawings are a cross between technical drawings and art which is why the old time drafties had 'artistic licence'....something CAD has belted out of us to a certain extent. Really, to me, it gets to readability and not to a dedicated formula of 'when this happens, do this'?

I realise this doesn't help you in your quest for a documented standard, but I though this was something that was loosely documented already and so does not have a definite answer. I believe our national drafting standard supports this. I would suspect the British Standard to have something similar (only because we Aussies are too lazy to work something out for ourselves so we usually borrow [steal] from others - generally the mother country.

So to directly answer the questions:

Angle is determined by readability which is governed by reading from the bottom or the righthand side.
The standards as I understand them to be support answer number 1 above -but with exceptions
Vague isn't it. And, having said that, I would also bow to anyone who has a really good rationale behind a set formula.

Regards,
Rob

[jaberwok]

FWIW, BS308 Part 1 section 7.4 says -
"Orientation of lettering.
When a landscape format drawing sheet is used with the title block at the bottom right-hand corner, notes should be lettered parallel to the long side of the sheet. When a landscape format drawing sheet is used in portrait position, the title block should appear at the left-hand side and notes should be lettered perpendicular to the long side of the sheet."

So, notes should be read horizontally, left to right - no surprise there.

Also, BS308 Part 2 section 5.3.1 says -
"Arrangement of dimensions, general.
Dimensions should be arranged so that the direction of reading is from the bottom of the drawing or from the right-hand side of the drawing, as shown in figures 15 and 16. Dimesions should preferably be placed outside the zones shown hatched in figure 15."

Looking at figure 15 (below) it is obviously intended that this question should be avoided.
So, no help there but at least it's an "official" no help.

(BTW, figure 16 relates to angular dimensions so is no help either.)

[Avatart]

FWIW, BS308 Part 1 section 7.4 says -Except BS308 (which I was born and raised on) is withdrawn.... :(

BS EN ISO 2162-1 takes over, but I have not got a copy of that.

[jaberwok]

Except BS308 (which I was born and raised on) is withdrawn.... :(

BS EN ISO 2162-1 takes over, but I have not got a copy of that.


For you guys -yes.
In engineering, BS8888 is the replacement. That (as far as I've seen) says the same things but in more words and at considerably greater expense.

[Avatart]

For you guys -yes.
In engineering, BS8888 is the replacement. That (as far as I've seen) says the same things but in more words and at considerably greater expense.Not that you're a cynic, eh John?

I just had a quick flick through BS1192 (1987) and they seem fine with text up to 45deg from the X-axis or the Y-axis, but it doesn't say which should take precedence. I would assume that it would be +/- 45deg from X-axis, then if that doesn't work, look at the Y-axis and go +/-45deg from that.

[jaberwok]

Not that you're a cynic, eh John?


I prefer to call it "realistic". ;-)

[Avatart]

I prefer to call it "realistic". ;-)Yeah, but it amounts to the same, dunnit? ;)

[jpaulsen]

Wow. Lots of activity on this thread all of a sudden =)

I want to clarify something that I think may be getting some of you confused. The PDF in my original post was unfortunately upside down. When viewing the PDF you must rotate it 180 degrees so the arrows point to the top of the screen.

Jaberwork I like the diagram you posted. Avoiding labels in those angle ranges would solve my problem but when labeling property lines that can be at any angle it is not always possible.

Just for everyone's information I decided to flip text to read from the left at 100 degrees.

[Avatart]

Just for everyone's information I decided to flip text to read from the left at 100 degrees.Quick, write that down in the standard! 100 degrees, got it chaps? ;)

[jaberwok]

Yes, it really only says that what you have as a problem IS a problem and should be avoided if possible but it gives no clue as to what you should do when avoidance is not possible. :-(

[drafting.33933]

let me throw one more thing into your discussion - for CIVIL drawings, it is a Canadian standard to have your topography contour numbers upside down on the backside of the hill.

Having said that, I am in full agreement with the digital image - "figure 15".

Ted.

[ekubaskie]

I don't know where the Deskers got the figure, but the default "bias" angle for plan-readability in Civil 3D label styles is 110 degrees.

[jaberwok]

I don't know where the Deskers got the figure, but the default "bias" angle for plan-readability in Civil 3D label styles is 110 degrees.

Figure 15 suggests around 120 so that's quite consistent.

[tthomason]

Looking at your pdf from right to left only the one on the far left is incorrect, the text should be 180 degrees. This is a standard and has been for the 30 plus years I have been in drafting. Text should always read from left to right or bottom to top unless it becomes more than 90 degrees as shown in your samples. A simple rule is that the text should never be upside down. If you were to write the text as shown on your sample from bottom to top the ones on the right would be upside down, therefore you switch the text to read from top to bottom. Just so you will know this location of text and orientation has been standard at least from the 1940's. I have a book showing the proper drafting techniques written in 1942.

[Kevin.Sturmer]

FWIW, BS308 Part 1 section 7.4 says -
"Orientation of lettering.
When a landscape format drawing sheet is used..

Great image! Yep that about sums it up, too.

[jmeyer.186809]

they only discrepency I see is that the text on the far left should be flipped 180 degrees to read from the right.