Keynotes - How good are they, REALLY??

[mibzim]

Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for ages, and i thought i would see how others feel about this thing they call "keynotes"...

Personally i think it is bulky. Complicated. User UN friendly. Inflexible. And it has very limited uses.

I used to think it was just me being stupid, but i'm pretty sure now that its not. Feel free to disagree though.

How many new users have mastered it?
And how long did it take?
How many people think its exactly what they were looking for in a keynotes tool?
How many people have been able to adapt it to their workplace standards (we haven't).
Who uses it regularly?
Is it just the US users that it works well for?
What were the development team thinking?

[Adam Mac]

I come from a structural background and was not familiar with the term
so i've only just started coming to terms with them in the last few months.
I'm using them more and more now and I think they've got huge potential.
I think they need some tweeking here and there, and a bit more flexibility in the tagging department, but aside from that i think they're definitely worth looking at seriously.

[robert.manna]

Ok, so this is something that has been bugging me for ages, and i thought i would see how others feel about this thing they call "keynotes"...

Personally i think it is bulky. Complicated. User UN friendly. Inflexible. And it has very limited uses.

I used to think it was just me being stupid, but i'm pretty sure now that its not. Feel free to disagree though.

How many new users have mastered it?
And how long did it take?
How many people think its exactly what they were looking for in a keynotes tool?
How many people have been able to adapt it to their workplace standards (we haven't).
Who uses it regularly?
Is it just the US users that it works well for?
What were the development team thinking?
While we have not had time to actually implement the keynote tool, we see value in it, and intend to make use of it. That said there are some shortcomings that need to be addressed to make it easier to use.

I think part of the problem is that the term is somewhat mis-understood from what some architects typically call a keynote. For instance in our firm the term keynote refers to a simple tag with a number that gets placed in a drawing, the number then referes to a typical not about the time which the tag references. However, there are not usually too many of these "notes" and they typically get used for special instances. Revit's keynoting tool is far more powerful, it has the potential and ability to eliminate a great deal of the human error typically associated with addings notes to drawings to tell the contractor what everything is. Because every object and material in Revit can now be assigned a keynote, a well organized firm can asisgn typical notes to everything. Thus, when a user goes to "note" a detail they merely have to tag all the objects in the detail, and all of the firm's typical notes will show up. This will hopefully reduce errors and omissions where in large drawing sets the same "thing" might be referenced three times with different nomenclature on three different drawings and one might be wrong, now they would receive the same "keynote" everytime. Furthermore since the notes are dervied from a numbered table based on the CSI divisions it would be possible on a project by project basis (assuming each project has a copy of the note table) to adjust the note table to exactly match the project specification maual (which was originally derivied using E-Specs from your Revit model) so that both the spec. manual and drawing set are in agreement about how all the "stuff" in your building is defined.

Now to the problems.... I've heard and read that the keynote table is difficult to edit, and hard to add stuff too... once again, haven't used it enough to make our own determination. Beause the keynote tool functions the same way tags to, because really you're just tagging the objects and materials, there is no functional word wrapping in the keynote tag object. So if you have a long note for something, the text won't really wrap, the way it typically would if you used a piece of text to write the note. In general this word wrapping issue with tags needs to be resolved as it would incease the overall functionality of tags in general, the best examples I can give in this case are Room and View tags, where often you want the text to wrap to multiple lines to reduce overall length. If you want to kenote by number you're all set, but I'm not sure a contractor would enjoy having to always reference a table of notes. Also, the material keynote feature will not let you tag membrane layers without thickness, which is perhaps one of the most critical items in building documentation that does need to be noted and called out as often it is hard to see them in our drawings.

HTH,
-R

[hand471037]

Biggest problem with Keynotes: you can't tag empty space or lines. This means that we can't use Keynotes very efficiently in details, for when drafting details you can't always use a Detail Component for everything.

Other than that, if they made the way to edit them as well as how they were stored better then they would be much better to use. But the above not being able to tag empty space is the number one thing standing in the way of using keynotes extensively at my day job.

[Adam Mac]

there is no functional word wrapping in the keynote tag object.

Have to agree there! I've made 2 different types (in the same family) and called them "long" and "short" to try and get around that problem to a point. The tags really need to be dynamically (??) adjustable i.e. after placement.

[mibzim]

Thank guys... interesting to hear your responses. I was really looking forward to the keynotes in release 9 and see all the potential benefits of the tool, but so far there are just too many problems with it.

Editting and arranging them is a hassle

Text wrapping is BIG problem with all tags.

Not being able to tag "empty space" is also an issue - why do keynotes HAVE to refer to an object in revit... the reality of creating documents is that objects are represented and not ALWAYS literal. I think revit has taken keynotes too literally.

How do we add a keynote with more than one parameter or line? For example, our firm uses the keynote structure below
- Specification Ref eg External Wall
- Material + Finish eg Rendered Blockwork
This at the moment this would require two tags.

[Chad Smith]

I haven't used them, but I can see how they are supposed to be used. Keynoting, from what I can tell, is just not used in this part of the world.

[truevis]

The workaround to get a keynote in space is to keynote-user something in the view, free its end, and move the note to where you want it. After that you can copy it around and change the new one's number.

Make lots of blank keynote numbers in your text file. Then, as you come across something you new you need keynoted: you can assign a number in Revit & fill the text in the text file. In the next editing session the text will be there in the keynote schedule on the sheet.

Clunky, but... GIT-R-DONE!

[revitanonyme]

Having used annotation symbols A LOT in the past I think keynotes are a great idea.
I however never thought I would be in a position to say I now have Revit legacy information, as all of my annotation symbol txt would have to be converted to my keynotes file.

[jcdecastro]

Keynotes are great in principle but the lack of a proper keynote interface and the 'revit way' of making you find work arounds for 'dumb' operations make it more diffucult for the novice user.

IMHO, The Revit factory is refusing to update its user interface which makes the software cumbersome to most new users who are accustomed to 21st century software interfacing. There are far too many clicks perform most tasks and the keynote feature is not an exception. Keynoting actually takes more clicks than any other feature in revit.

Hopefully a common ground can be reached in the near future but I do however understand Revit wanting to keep all the information as accurate as possible so that a keynote with a free end doesnt point to the wrong thing. But to the end user something like that is just not practical 100% of the time.

[jtobin.68416]

I generally use my own custom MUCH shorter keynote table to call out spec sections mainly, but I lament the lack of being able to add a custom, user defined field to the keynote family, so I can make a comment like 6" batt, or 3" rigid, etc.
.
With that addition, I think I'd be pretty happy. For me, it's a way to unify what something is called throughout a project.

[bbeck]

Be very careful when keynoting a entity in Revit, using "free-end", moving the tag to a location and changing the text value of the tag to be the keynote you want. That keynote tag is forever associated with the original item picked in Revit. If you move the original entity or delete it from your model, the keynote tag will move or be deleted also. Very, very bad juju. We have a work-around but it's not pretty. Keynotes need more development from Factory IMHO.

[johnf.77896]

Been using Keynotes and condoc for about 17 years now. Keynotes are a great way to annotate a drawing without cluttering it up with lots of text. This of course doesnt mean that you cant add notes but it sure makes life simple when you can read a number and go to the corresponding note on that page to explain what it is. Also great for detailing. Sure there are shortcomings but that is what forums are for and letting people know what you would like to see.
I personally like the way that it is set up now with a separate text file so someone else can edit it while you are noting up a drawing.
I also love the ability to place notes on one sheet, so you dont have to put a bunch of notes on a sheet that dont pertain to that sheet.
In version 8.1 it was nice to be able to put all of them on a sheet so you can print a whole sheet with nothing but condoc on it and not have to have any drawings on it. Nice to be able to give to contractors.
Love the CSI format, wish it was up to the new MasterFormat divisions.

John Fleming
GMK Architecture, inc.

[ford347]

I use them whenever possible and have a database of 7-8k items or so. But after placement, it bugs me as well that you can't adjust the text like text. cumbersome. Plus, since you can't use a detail item for everthing as jeffrey described, this limits its uses as well. I also don't like how it doesn't have a double leader option. All in all I find it useful, but definitly needs some re-vamping.

Josh

[johnf.77896]

Well since I am currently working on this I thought that I would ask. In 8.1 you could just place a keynote in space, in 9.0 you cant. How do you get the division headings to show up in your schedule? See the attached file. The yellow highlighted part are the ones that I would like to have in my schedule.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
John Fleming
GMK Architecture, inc.

[johnf.77896]

Think I got an idea from Truevis that you need to put them in on a floor plan and then change them to what you want. He is right, very clunky.

John Fleming

[mibzim]

I haven't used them, but I can see how they are supposed to be used. Keynoting, from what I can tell, is just not used in this part of the world.

Yeah... i guess what we would refer to as a keynote wouldn't be exactly the same as in the US. We were going to try and link keynotes to NATspec... our Sydney office started that, but i'm not convinced that they are going to get good results. I guess we will wait and see how it goes.