Layer Freeze vs. Layer Off

[econlon]

Can someone direct me to a discussion (or white paper?) on why one would freeze layers instead of turning them off. I understand the power of the freeze command in paper space with multiple viewports, but what is the difference when working in model space?

[tyshofner]

From autodesk's website:

On/Off http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/4418265_76811g1.gif / http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/4418265_76811g2.gif

Turns layers on and off. When a layer is on, it is visible and available for plotting. When a layer is off, it is invisible and is not plotted, even if Plot is on.

Thaw/Freeze in All Viewports http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/4418265_76811g3.gif / http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/4418265_76811g4.gif

Thaws and freezes selected layers in all viewports. You can freeze layers to speed up zoom, pan, and many other operations; improve object selection performance; and reduce regeneration time for complex drawings. AutoCAD does not display, plot, hide, render, or regenerate objects on frozen layers.

Freeze the layers you want to be invisible for long periods. When you thaw a frozen layer, AutoCAD regenerates and displays the objects on that layer. If you plan to switch between visible and invisible states frequently, use the On/Off setting. You can freeze layers in all viewports, in the current layout viewport, or in new layout viewports as they are created.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically,
On/Off makes them invisible to the EYE.
Freeze/Thaw makes them invisible to the EYE as well as AutoCAD.

So, since ACAD does not include the objects on frozen layers in any of the above mentioned operations it will help to improve performance. Where as if they were off, they would still be included in the calculations for the operations.

Ty :mrgreen:

[jaberwok]

Never mentioned by adesk - in 3d, objects on a layer that is OFF will not plot but WILL obscure objects behind them.

[robert.1.hall72202]

Good discussion. I essentially do not see a difference in my use
of layers on/off and/or frozen. Throwing a layer in the freezer makes
the objects disappear just as quickly as turning off the layer.

[scott.wilcox]

Using the selection method ALL: objects on off layers are selected, objects on frozen layers are not selected.

[jaberwok]

Using the selection method ALL: objects on off layers are selected, objects on frozen layers are not selected.


Good point. :beer:

[mmccarter]

Using the selection method ALL: objects on off layers are selected, objects on frozen layers are not selected.

It is for this reason that we frown upon layers been turned onn/off as opposed to frozen/thawed here at our place just incase anything is accidently deleted without being visible to the eye.
I was not aware of the increase in performance by using this method aswell. Thanks for the info :)

[padams]

the off vs frrozen layer effect the zoom extents display

[r424andy]

personally i only use freeze for individual viewports. That way when I switch back to modelspace everything remains on. If i have a particular vp freeze setup i want to use in model space I set up the layermanger to turn off the same layeres that would be frozen in the viewport

[Coolmo]

I cannot for the life of me get my people over here to STOP using ON/OFF as a layer state option inside of our sheets. My only reasoning is a lot of people use a certain form of "Isolate layer" which turns all other layers OFF except the ones you isolate and the only way to get them back is to turn ON all the layers again. If you only utilize ON/OFF for isolating layers, it works great. I realize there's a "return to layer state" button but it will usually UNDO any actual layer changes (color, linetype, etc.) that you originally wanted to isolate layers for.

[moshira_hassan]

another thing i like about freeze layers ... al blocks within the layer are invisible when freezing the layer ... no matter the layers that blocks are drawn on

[rpetrie.141075]

I think the most important difference between ON/OFF and FREEZE/THAW is the unspoken understanding I'll describe below.

No matter who's drawing you are in if you want to see it as intended when it comes to print date . . . you turn ON all the layers then print the file. DO NOT THAW any layers.

If you FREEZE a layer or see a layer that someone else created then set as FROZEN . . . it's pretty safe to assume that layer contains objects they did not want to Print, but did need to save.


There are many other difference between ON/OFF and FREEZE/THAW but as far as I'm concerned the above is the most important.

A close second place difference between on/off and freeze/thaw is the ability to freeze all xref'd layers by simply creating layer (example: "Xref - Base Design") to place your xref object on, then freeze that one layer then all your xref layers will be frozen. That is much simpler than freezing and thawing layers that come in with that xref.

[revacservice]

My understanding of freeze against switching layers off is that when a layer is frozen any objects on this layer are not included in any regeneration where objects on a turned off layer are.

In the days of my 486DX4 chip and less than 1 meg RAM freezing layers which were not required speeded up regeneration and made thing much more usable as less processing and disk access was required. (On large files regeneration could take many minuets to be processed, and one third party add in still has autoregen off as a default, read in one mag 20 minuet regen was not uncommon)

So turning off was used to hide objects for a short time only where as freezing was used to hide objects which were not required in the longer term thus speeding up the regen process.

Don Smith

[bmonk]

Good topic, thanks for the info everybody.

[margaretl]

I am in agreement with others who have posted.

When passing drawings back and forth in the office, it is much easier to understand what another drafter intended when On/Off is used for short term and Freeze/Thaw for long term.
When I need to work on a drawing someone else has worked on, I know to turn on all the layers before plotting. I, also, know that if I thaw a layer to use, I better freeze it again or I won't get the results I was looking for.

The performance improvements really don't affect us too much anymore. Hardware and software have come a long way and my file sizes are pretty tame. If you are looking for performance enhancement, try MAXACTVP to turn off some of those viewports. That is my biggest issue with outside drawings.

[scott.wilcox]

With the express layer tools (called layers II in 2007), the ability to quickly isolate layers for editing has made my company use OFF for temporary editing and FREEZE to control visibility of layers in viewports. It is a rule to have all layers on before saving/closing.

[revacservice]

Hopefully most people use model and paper space, model space for the actual drawing and paper space for the title block.

When the editing of a file is complete all layers in model space should be on and not frozen. If a layer is to be displayed in the final drawing should be determined in the view port and the properties locked.

If the display of layers in the final drawing is determined by model space settings it denies useful tools for later editing or a possible source of errors if the settings are not returned to the desired settings once the modifications have been made.

Don Smith

[CADDmanVA]

After initial setup in Model Space, I tend to do all my drafting in Paper Space through the viewports. Mainly so I don't need to worry about turning all the layers on before plots, etc. I enjoy the convenience of VP Freezing taking care of the thinking for me after I spend the time setting it up. In fact, a few months ago, I was working on a large streetscaping project. I set up a wild Paper Space tab using E3 paper. The sheet had four viewports in it, one for each street. It really made it easy to jump from area to area without accidentally forgetting to change layers.

[dguinan]

My understanding of freeze against switching layers off is that when a layer is frozen any objects on this layer are not included in any regeneration where objects on a turned off layer are.

In the days of my 486DX4 chip and less than 1 meg RAM freezing layers which were not required speeded up regeneration and made thing much more usable as less processing and disk access was required. (On large files regeneration could take many minuets to be processed, and one third party add in still has autoregen off as a default, read in one mag 20 minuet regen was not uncommon)

So turning off was used to hide objects for a short time only where as freezing was used to hide objects which were not required in the longer term thus speeding up the regen process.

Don Smith

I aggree with Don. I have been using AutoCAD since release 12 and our manuals (Yes we did get them back then) explained the main differance between Layers Frozen and Off is performance. Frozen layers are excluded from from the regeneration process. If I entered the erase command and selected all, entities turned off will be deleted. More importantly if you were using quick select (filters) for example entities on turned off layers will be included in the filter selection. Turning layers on/off should only be temporary and Freeze/Thaw permanent. It is also good practice to freeze all layers not been used in a viewport to increase regeneration/performance.

Declan

Declan

[scotthop]

I use Freeze/Thaw for 'permament' view changes: within viewports, layer states, xref layer settings, and the like.

I use On/Off for temporary view changes, like when I'm actively editing a drawing and have a need for certain layers to be shown or not shown.

[mockdeep]

I use Freeze/Thaw for 'permament' view changes: within viewports, layer states, xref layer settings, and the like.

I use On/Off for temporary view changes, like when I'm actively editing a drawing and have a need for certain layers to be shown or not shown.

Likewise. My custom save command includes LAYON so that all of the layers turned off during editing are turned back on.

[irneb]

Official reasoning behind Freeze and OFF is:

If you Freeze a layer, then all entities on it is "removed" from memory. This means that if you placed a block / xref on that layer, none of it will show up, even if entities within that block are on other Thawed / ON layers.

If you OFF a layer, it's still kept in memory, so parts of the block / xref on this layer (those that were either drawn directly on it or on layer 0) will be turned off, while the rest on other Thawed / ON layers will still show up.

This holds true for Model Space. Since the invention of Paper Space you can have Freeze overrides per viewport. This is slightly different from the normal Freeze as discussed above. It works more like OFF, but only does this for the currently active viewport.

[Merlin]

Greetings

In the offices I've worked in, we've always ahd a protocol of ON/OFF for temporary clarity while constructing the drawing. FREEZE/THAW for the Long-term or when you made decisions on layers not to be seen in the "end-product".

Interesting thing is that the LAYER ISOLATE falls within this protocol as it turns layers OFF.

My 5 cents for what it's worth
John Mc

[sthedens]

Official reasoning behind Freeze and OFF is:

If you Freeze a layer, then all entities on it is "removed" from memory. This means that if you placed a block / xref on that layer, none of it will show up, even if entities within that block are on other Thawed / ON layers.

If you OFF a layer, it's still kept in memory, so parts of the block / xref on this layer (those that were either drawn directly on it or on layer 0) will be turned off, while the rest on other Thawed / ON layers will still show up.

This holds true for Model Space. Since the invention of Paper Space you can have Freeze overrides per viewport. This is slightly different from the normal Freeze as discussed above. It works more like OFF, but only does this for the currently active viewport.


This is a well stated difference between ON/OFF and THAW/FREEZE. It is more than just short term vs. long term display standards.

We had a consultant who used the term ON/OFF when they were actually Thawing and Freezing. To them the apparent affects were the same so they must be redundant options.
We place architectural notes on layer A-ANNO. We have room labels where the attribute definition entities are on A-ANNO-IDEN and A-ANNO-SQFT. The room label Block is inserted on A-ANNO. If the user turns the A-ANNO layer OFF, the labels still displays. If the user FREEZES layer A-ANNO the labels disappear because the layer the Block is inserted on is no longer in memory. The consultant couldn't figure out how to turn OFF our annotation while keeping the room labels ON because they didn't understand the difference between ON/OFF and THAW/FREEZE.

[jaberwok]

Why, ever, switch a layer OFF?
It's no easier than Freezing and Freezing has a known and reliable and useful effect.

[dzatto]

The only thing I use on/off for is when I need to make a change to something on a layer, I'll use layiso. It turns off the other layers. That way I have one layer to work on, all others are off. When I'm done, I'll hit layuniso and they all are turned back on. It's IL and LO for keyboard shortcuts, so it's a fast way to clean the drawing to make a change.

[jaberwok]

The only thing I use on/off for is when I need to make a change to something on a layer, I'll use layiso. It turns off the other layers. That way I have one layer to work on, all others are off. When I'm done, I'll hit layuniso and they all are turned back on. It's IL and LO for keyboard shortcuts, so it's a fast way to clean the drawing to make a change.

When you use Layiso do you care whether it is Frozen or turned Off?

[dzatto]

Do you mean frozen but dulled down? Isn't that what they started in 2008? I prefer it off so I can't see it.

Other than that, if frozen will kill it completely, then it doesn't matter. I've always just used off. ~shrug~

[irneb]

OK we're getting off subject ... but ... LAYISO has 2 options: (1 - default) turns layers on/off; (2) locks / unlocks layers - that's what you mean by "dulling", it doesn't FREEZE/THAW them at all.

As for never using on/off, sthedens gave a perfect example of when to use ON/OFF instead of FREEZE/THAW.

If you want to use it in your particular protocol as temporary ON/OF and permanent FREEZE/THAW ... nothing's stopping you to do so. But that's a self imposed reason. It's got nothing to do with what the 2 types of layer changing's about. It's what you do to make your life easier. The OP didn't ask what your protocol is, rather what the difference is between the 2.

Now:
OFF
Turns the visibility of the entities on those layers off. If a complex entity (like a block) has sub-entities on different layers, they WON'T BE AFFECTED. However, this change is drawing wide - to have it viewport specific see below.

FREEZE
This removes the entities on those layers from memory. Thus they won't appear & won't use up any scarce RAM. As a "side-effect" complex entities (like blocks) would disappear even if some of their sub-entities are on different (still thawed) layers.

FREEZE ViewPort Override
This works exactly like OFF ... I think AutoDesk made a naming inconsistency here. It only affects the currently active floating viewport while you're inside its model space. Those specific layers are hidden (but not removed from RAM) only in this viewport. Complex entities will work the same as for OFF - in this viewport only.

Then (if you wre wondering - since this is related and has come up) you get LOCK/UNLOCK - as described above with the LAYISO command. This makes a layer non-selectable for modification. And in resent versions AutoCAD will "dull" the colours of the entities thereon so you can see the difference. The "point" being you can use the entities to pick points (e.g. endpoint, intersection, etc.) or operations like extend / trim to these entities, but you're dissalowing the user from changing them. I generally do this to stuff like grids which you don't want to move by accident, but still want to see.

[jaberwok]

As
I've said elsewhere - important if you work in 3d -
objects on OFF layers will not display but, in a Hidden view, WILL obscure other objects; on a Frozen layer they don't.


Edit: oops, I should have said - "in all releases up to and including A2006 ..."

[spacedecor]

As
I've said elsewhere - important if you work in 3d -
objects on OFF layers will not display but, in a Hidden view, WILL obscure other objects; on a Frozen layer they don't.



Ya... I agree that is very important in 3d work.

[dzatto]

OK we're getting off subject ... but ... LAYISO has 2 options: (1 - default) turns layers on/off; (2) locks / unlocks layers - that's what you mean by "dulling", it doesn't FREEZE/THAW them at all.

As for never using on/off, sthedens gave a perfect example of when to use ON/OFF instead of FREEZE/THAW.

If you want to use it in your particular protocol as temporary ON/OF and permanent FREEZE/THAW ... nothing's stopping you to do so. But that's a self imposed reason. It's got nothing to do with what the 2 types of layer changing's about. It's what you do to make your life easier. The OP didn't ask what your protocol is, rather what the difference is between the 2.

Now:
OFF
Turns the visibility of the entities on those layers off. If a complex entity (like a block) has sub-entities on different layers, they WON'T BE AFFECTED. However, this change is drawing wide - to have it viewport specific see below.

FREEZE
This removes the entities on those layers from memory. Thus they won't appear & won't use up any scarce RAM. As a "side-effect" complex entities (like blocks) would disappear even if some of their sub-entities are on different (still thawed) layers.

FREEZE ViewPort Override
This works exactly like OFF ... I think AutoDesk made a naming inconsistency here. It only affects the currently active floating viewport while you're inside its model space. Those specific layers are hidden (but not removed from RAM) only in this viewport. Complex entities will work the same as for OFF - in this viewport only.

Then (if you wre wondering - since this is related and has come up) you get LOCK/UNLOCK - as described above with the LAYISO command. This makes a layer non-selectable for modification. And in resent versions AutoCAD will "dull" the colours of the entities thereon so you can see the difference. The "point" being you can use the entities to pick points (e.g. endpoint, intersection, etc.) or operations like extend / trim to these entities, but you're dissalowing the user from changing them. I generally do this to stuff like grids which you don't want to move by accident, but still want to see.
Dude, relax. :roll:

[CADDmanVA]

As
I've said elsewhere - important if you work in 3d -
objects on OFF layers will not display but, in a Hidden view, WILL obscure other objects; on a Frozen layer they don't.


Edit: oops, I should have said - "in all releases up to and including A2006 ..."

Interesting. I don't do 3D through AutoCAD, yet. What is the reasoning behind the off operation though? Why would you want to occlude something when you cannot see the object occluding it?

[jaberwok]

Interesting. I don't do 3D through AutoCAD, yet. What is the reasoning behind the off operation though? Why would you want to occlude something when you cannot see the object occluding it?

Exactly, why would you?
However, both on/off and freeze/thaw existed (I'm almost certain) before even the basic 3D ability of R10 was introduced so 3D was probably not a consideration when the layer tools were designed.
I suspect that the ONLY reason to have the on/off options is that the ON option does not force a regen as the Thaw option does.

[CADDmanVA]

Exactly, why would you?
However, both on/off and freeze/thaw existed (I'm almost certain) before even the basic 3D ability of R10 was introduced so 3D was probably not a consideration when the layer tools were designed.
I suspect that the ONLY reason to have the on/off options is that the ON option does not force a regen as the Thaw option does.

Agreed. I remember when I was in school regens where what drove turning a layer off or freezing it. I still think all these years later Autodesk's 3D views are a little strange compared to other packages which were native 3D to start.

[Coolmo]

The OP didn't ask what your protocol is, rather what the difference is between the 2.


Actually, by asking the question "why one would freeze layers instead of turning them off" from the original post, seems to me the OP wanted to both know the differences AND try to get some logic behind they way others do things. Bottom line in my opinion, ON/OFF should only be used for layer isolation operations and Freeze/Thaw should be the main layer state vehicle. I can't tell you how many drawings/hardcopys in our office are screwed up because people here use a combination of ON/OFF and Freeze/Thaw to display their layers and as soon as someone else gets in and isolates a layer and then turns all the layers back ON... chaos!

[sthedens]

... Bottom line in my opinion, ON/OFF should only be used for layer isolation operations and Freeze/Thaw should be the main layer state vehicle. I can't tell you how many drawings/hardcopys in our office are screwed up because people here use a combination of ON/OFF and Freeze/Thaw to display their layers and as soon as someone else gets in and isolates a layer and then turns all the layers back ON... chaos!


Why not use Layer States to save the state of your layers? That's what it's designed for.


sthedens

[Coolmo]

Why not use Layer States to save the state of your layers? That's what it's designed for.


sthedens

That's just it though. No matter what I do ON/OFF wise, my layer states for each drawing are determined by Freeze/Thaw so whatever happens to any layer with respect to ON and OFF (isolating layers, turning solid hatches OFF to see text, etc.), the layer state I want can always be obtained by turning all layers back ON. It's also easier to turn all the layers back on than going through the layer state dialog to find and restore a particular layer state. granted, it only saves 4 to 5 secs but every click counts.

[jaberwok]

Why not use Layer States to save the state of your layers? That's what it's designed for.
sthedens

Simply regarding the logic - layer states management is a very recent addition to the acad toolbox; the on/off v freeze/thaw debate goes back a lot further.

[CADDmanVA]

Simply regarding the logic - layer states management is a very recent addition to the acad toolbox; the on/off v freeze/thaw debate goes back a lot further.

Uh oh...you just dated those of us who joined in the debate a few posts ago... 8)

[irneb]

Simply regarding the logic - layer states management is a very recent addition to the acad toolboxYes, but there was LMAN in the Express tools which did much the same thing.

I can't tell you how many drawings/hardcopys in our office are screwed up because people here use a combination of ON/OFF and Freeze/Thaw to display their layers and as soon as someone else gets in and isolates a layer and then turns all the layers back ON... chaos!That's just my point! There are very worthy reasons for using both - not simply Temporary / Permanent. You get different results by using OFF / Freeze. The final printed page could even look different if you've changed all the OFF layers to Frozen (or visa-versa). If you're only working with lines then fine - there won't be any difference. But as soon as you're using Blocks or (especially) XRefs you've got to be very careful about using Freeze as it could turn "off" stuff you didn't want turned "off".

The attached shows the reason I'm talking about. There's 4 layers: 0, Layer1, -2 & -3. A line on each, with a duplicate placed inside a block - this block is inserted on Layer3. Drawing Freeze has everything turned ON, with only Layer3 Frozen, while Drawing OFF has everything Thawed with only Layer3 OFF. Now you can see that the lines inside the block behave VERY DIFFERENT in the 2 scenarios. So depending on what you wanted you may want to use Freeze instead of OFF - irrespective of whether the change should be permanent or not.

[jaberwok]

Uh oh...you just dated those of us who joined in the debate a few posts ago... 8)


I remember AutoCAD R10
Hey! I remember v2.5!
How's that for dated? ;-)

[Coolmo]

The attached shows the reason I'm talking about. There's 4 layers: 0, Layer1, -2 & -3. A line on each, with a duplicate placed inside a block - this block is inserted on Layer3. Drawing Freeze has everything turned ON, with only Layer3 Frozen, while Drawing OFF has everything Thawed with only Layer3 OFF. Now you can see that the lines inside the block behave VERY DIFFERENT in the 2 scenarios. So depending on what you wanted you may want to use Freeze instead of OFF - irrespective of whether the change should be permanent or not.

I understand the whole thing about blocks and how OFF and Frozen affects the layers inside. I personally would never set up my layers like that whereas a layer INSIDE a block would need to be shown but the layer the block was on wouldn't. Seems wacky.

Layer manager works great but with all the "stuff" we get from other companies and all the new layers that might pop up in the duration of a project, I'd hate to have to chase my tail by catching EVERY drawing up to speed with all of these new layers by setting up a layer state and re-saving it every time a layer is created in the base drawings or xrefs. Something could, and would, get missed and then you'd have layers showing up in hardcopies unexpected. With my way, freezing what ya don't want to see and thawing what you do, this VERY simple rule saves a tremendous amount of time and there's no guess as to what has been saved and what hasn't (in a layer state). To each his own.

[Capt. Computer Crasher]

well usually if I am not going to use the layer in a drawing but still want the info on the layer in the drawing (just in case) I use both Off and freeze then I lock it.

[CADDmanVA]

Hey! I remember v2.5!
How's that for dated? ;-)

:shock: You win.

[Mufasa23]

I just wanna addd one thing: Even though Layer States are alot newer than the theories of on/off vs. freeze/thaw: I find it good practice to create a layer state in any drawing where this may be an issue called As Intended. So, when you or someone else messes up the settings, you have something to fall back on. However, this isn't totally foolproof due to the fact if new layers are created then they're not included in your original As Intended layer state, but it does provide a good starting point to say the least.

[Coolmo]

So, when you or someone else messes up the settings, you have something to fall back on. However, this isn't totally foolproof due to the fact if new layers are created then they're not included in your original As Intended layer state, but it does provide a good starting point to say the least.

The good thing in this situation is that I have a little program that saves about 200 entries inside of every file opened and saved that tells me who was in it and when they opened it. One command accesses the dictionary database from the file. Gotcha! Some people hate this program but the majority of us here swear by it for security reasons. I wrote it about 8-9 years ago though. I'm sure AutoCAD has something in place now that does the same thing.... actually... do they?

[sthedens]

I personally would never set up my layers like that whereas a layer INSIDE a block would need to be shown but the layer the block was on wouldn't. Seems wacky.


As in:
Wacky = Crazy,
Wacky = Cool, as in "Playstation is Wack!" or
Wacky = Elegantly Sophisticated (my preference)

[jaberwok]

Wacky = :screwy:

[irneb]

Another idea would be to create your layers with a very defined naming system (something like ACA / ISO) then use layer filters (using wildcards where needed) so you can have a set of layers displayed in the Layer Properties under a branch. This would work for all those new layers as well, but it breaks down as soon as someone adds a non-standard layer name. Also, don't create too many filters - it slows down your drawing a lot!

So it's a toss-up as to which you prefer to use: Freeze/Off; States; or Filters.

[irneb]

I understand the whole thing about blocks and how OFF and Frozen affects the layers inside. I personally would never set up my layers like that whereas a layer INSIDE a block would need to be shown but the layer the block was on wouldn't. Seems wacky.I don't think it's "Wacky" in the sense that you're suggesting. It's very powerful & can save a lot of extra work. E.g.:
With room tags - in order to get my scheduling working - I use data extraction. Now to have the room name & number show up in the schedule - they need to be "joined" inside a block as 2 attributes. Sometimes you don't want to see the number on plan but do want to see the name (or visa-versa) - happens a lot when other consultants use my drawing. So either you create a separate name & number - which makes for duplicate work, or you have the number attribute on a ROOM-NO layer, while the name attribute is on a ROOM-NAME layer. Then it's simply a matter of turning whichever layer OFF.

[Coolmo]

So either you create a separate name & number - which makes for duplicate work, or you have the number attribute on a ROOM-NO layer, while the name attribute is on a ROOM-NAME layer. Then it's simply a matter of turning whichever layer OFF.

That's what I'd do too but I would just freeze the layer I didn't want to see. Same outcome but I'd be sticking to my very simple rule of Freezing things I don't want to see and keeping ALL layers turned ON. What would be the advantage of turning the layers OFF inside the block instead of just freezing them? I personally don't work with attributes so is it an attribute thing? The only difference that I see in this block situation is if you have a block with 3 entitys on 3 different layers INSIDE the block and the block is inserted onto a 4th layer, when the 4th layer is turned OFF the 3 layers on the INSIDE of the block still show as opposed to if you froze the 4th layer, which would simply not show the 4th layer and also not show everything in the block. I'm really not trying to argue here. I just want to see if I'm missing something that could make me faster in my work.

How do you isolate layers and the better question is how do you turn them back on? Through layer manager? You can't use the "Layer Previous" button because any actual changes you do to the layers after they've been isolated gets lost when it "Restores" the previous layer state (and then doesn't put you back to pre-isolation state.) I really am curious.

[irneb]

That's what I'd do too but I would just freeze the layer I didn't want to see. Same outcome but I'd be sticking to my very simple rule of Freezing things I don't want to see and keeping ALL layers turned ON. What would be the advantage of turning the layers OFF inside the block instead of just freezing them? I personally don't work with attributes so is it an attribute thing? The only difference that I see in this block situation is if you have a block with 3 entitys on 3 different layers INSIDE the block and the block is inserted onto a 4th layer, when the 4th layer is turned OFF the 3 layers on the INSIDE of the block still show as opposed to if you froze the 4th layer, which would simply not show the 4th layer and also not show everything in the block. I'm really not trying to argue here. I just want to see if I'm missing something that could make me faster in my work.I forgot to mention, instead of having a 3rd layer for inserting the block onto, I generally then just place it on the ROOM-NO layer. I could freeze the ROOM-NAME layer and have no difficulty, but doing so with the ROOM-NO will freeze all of it. If you always place the block on a different layer - which you never freeze - sure you can then stick to freezing only. And no it's not just for attributes, I've got a similar thing happening to my door-blocks, which have the actual door swing placed on layer 0, the lintel lines on LINTELS, etc. The block's inserted on layer DOORS. For RCP's I then turn DOORS off so I still see the lintel lines. If I froze DOORS, then the openings would look as if the wall stops there instead of having a line which shows that there's something going through below ceiling level.


How do you isolate layers and the better question is how do you turn them back on? Through layer manager? You can't use the "Layer Previous" button because any actual changes you do to the layers after they've been isolated gets lost when it "Restores" the previous layer state (and then doesn't put you back to pre-isolation state.) I really am curious.You use LAYUNISO instead LAYERP. It does become a bit difficult to isolate layers inside blocks - I must admit. LAYFRZ and LAYOFF works great though.

[david.ward]

Can someone direct me to a discussion (or white paper?) on why one would freeze layers instead of turning them off. I understand the power of the freeze command in paper space with multiple viewports, but what is the difference when working in model space?

I have discovered a "glitch" in the ON/OFF function. If you have a multi leader that uses a block that has an entity (a circle in my case) on the zero layer within the block, and the multi layer is placed on a layer that is turned off, the entity will be invisible but will still plot unless the layer is frozen. The same block used in the multi leader but placed as a block by itself (on the same layer as the multi leader layer that is turned off), the entity will be invisible and NOT plot (as it is supposed to not plot)

Why does the entity forget what it is supposed to do when it is part of a multi leader?

I freeze it and it works fine but I would call that a glitch.

David