ADT Vs Revit

[skpark]

I wouldn't put anything past Adsk.
Today I started checking out ADT 2005 (last time I hung out with ADT, he was 3.3), and started getting a sinky feeling about the apparent revit-ish aspirations. (Namely sheet set manager, but never mind what other features, that's not where I am going with this.) ADT has changed a lot, and according to the testimonials, for much much much the better. Personally, I am not a real Reviteer -- have only tinkered off/on since 4.5 -- but I haven't really seen any drastic improvements between the 4 and the 6.

So here's the point I wanted to put out there: did adsk change its AEC direction? Is ADT selling well and Revit not? Is autodesk go-go-go w/ ADT and not-so-much with revit? Am I just being paranoid?

[Scott_Bloss]

I seem to think that revit has implemented several new things with each release. All of them very good improvements. i do not think that the ADT release improvements size up to the Revit improvements personally however that is my opinion.

[Scott D Davis]

You really must try r6.1! There have been huge improvements in file size, speed, tool efficiency, new tools, etc. since r4.5.

I think your self proclaimed status as a Revit 'tinkerer' has not allowed you to appreciate all the improvements that have been made. And it only continues to get better, as we eagerly anticipate Revit 7.0!

ADT in the other hand, has had significant imrovements from what I heard. But really, it had to improve. There were just too many issues with it and productivity from r2, then ADT 3. ADT 3.3 seemed to make users happy, although it was still lacking some things to really make people buy into it as Software instead of shelfware. With Revit on the scene, the ADT developement team was faced with a huge challenge: Run with the big dogs, or stay on the porch! I think the team really buckled down and focused on improving ADT for the 2004 release, and polished things up with the 2005 release. This, in my opinion, is why there has been so much 'development' going on in the ADT camp.

Plus, the 'release a year' concept? Where do you thin that came from? The pressure has been really on to keep up with the development of Revit, having 6 full releases in the last 4 years.

[mlgatzke]

I seem to think that revit has implemented several new things with each release. All of them very good improvements. i do not think that the ADT release improvements size up to the Revit improvements personally however that is my opinion.
Of what I've seen, the new "improvements" are ideas taken from Revit - especially Fields and Sheet Management. However, no matter how hard the ADT developers try they can never make the ADT "improvements" as good as Revit already has. I think it has allot to do with having to keep the dwg extension format.

I'll say this about that: I was an ADT devote' since ADT2. I taught ADT to my students and consulted on ADT with local firms. I used ADT on contract work in my own practice. All that changed in August of 2002 when I tried Revit for the first time. I switched my personal license as soon as I could get the paperwork rolling and began implimenting Revit into my course curriculum for the following semester. I've never looked back and have been amazed at just how fast my students can become proficient with Revit and the mass quantity of work they can produce in a significantly shorter span of time that they could previously (using ADT). I don't care what anyone says, I think anyone getting started in the Architectural profession should turn their eyes from AutoCAD or ADT and run - as fast as they can - and get a license of Revit.

WOW! I just snapped out of that promotional rant and realized just how much I loath ADT now. It's a waste of time. Do you think I have been straight forward enough? As you can probably tell, I have an opinion on Revit and I'm not afraid to express it.

[hand471037]

skpark:

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=5198

There was just a lively debate about the very topic you're talking about.

[tonyisenhoff]

Another thing to consider, is that ADT also has all the AutoCAD improvements rolled into it as well. Therefore it appears that there are a lot of new things (ADT specific) when it really is a combination of both (ADT and AutoCAD).

FYI - Sheet sets were an AutoCAD enhancement (but more than likely driven by ADT)...

[Danny Polkinhorn]

skpark,

I have a couple of suggestions:

1. Don't ask Revit people about ADT in a Revit newsgroup.
2. Don't ask ADT people about Revit in an ADT newsgroup.
3. Ask a knowledgable reseller who knows both products to evaluate YOUR needs for YOUR office. The reality is that each office is different and what works for one person may not work for others. Resellers are paid by Autodesk to provide this service. If you can't find a decent reseller, Jeffrey seems to have a level head and he works for a reseller. Those of us on newsgroups can't and shouldn't help you make a decision about your offices practices.
4. Try them yourself. Both products are available as free trials. Use them as pilots on your projects.
5. If you have specific questions about what can or can't be done with Revit, come back here and do a search. It's quite likely that someone here has tried it already.

Hope that helps,

[mjfarrell]

I don't have a crystal ball; however given that
AutoDesk owns Revit and that the previous
Revit user group has been co-opted into the
AUGI forums it would suggest that at some juncture
either ADT or Revit will cease to exist or
as AutoDesk is all about profit the two products will
co-exists at different price points, much as AutoCAD
has in both the 'full' and the 'light' versions.

[Scott D Davis]

The only connection between AUGI and Autodesk is sponsorship. AUGI is a separate entity, run by volunteers. The previous Revit forums at Zoogdesign.com had nothing to do with Autodesk, and was a privately built and funded forum for Revit enthusiast.

What has occured with the consolidation of Zoogdesign and AUGI has absolutely no bearing on the future of an Autodesk product.

[mjfarrell]

The only connection between AUGI and Autodesk is sponsorship. AUGI is a separate entity, run by volunteers. The previous Revit forums at Zoogdesign.com had nothing to do with Autodesk, and was a privately built and funded forum for Revit enthusiast.

What has occured with the consolidation of Zoogdesign and AUGI has absolutely no bearing on the future of an Autodesk product.

Scott, I think you missed my point.
Perhaps we can take up this conversation in another
five years. Time will tell.

[hand471037]

All I can say, and this is just speculation (I have no 'inside' information, per my reseller job), that looking at what has happened at the Mechnical market you'll have a pretty good idea of where the Architectural CAD market is going.

Look at the mechanical side of Autodesk's offerings. You've still got plain ol' AutoCAD, and Mechanical Desktop, and then, Inventor. Each targets a certain market, each is sucessful, and each is a good tool for a certain kind of job. And that's it. This whole myopic arguement that ADT will swollow Revit or vise-versa is insane folly I feel. There is a place in Architecture for AutoCAD, ADT, and Revit, for each serve different needs, and if you worked with all three you'd quickly see that.

However, most of the future developement on the Mechanical side goes to Inventor, because that's where the highest return for the development money will come from. Being a new product, and not running on a legacy platform, Inventor can develop much more quickly and do many things that would be very difficult with Mechanical Desktop. However Mechanical Desktop is still used, altho less than it was, and is still actively developed.

I personally feel it's the same with ADT vs. Revit. I mean, doing something like multi-phased construction and multipule design options within Revit is trival, and in the case of design options added within a single release cycle; both of these things are very difficult to do within ADT, IMHO, unless you just resort to using ADT as AutoCAD. Until Revit came along, Autodesk didn't have an out-of-the-box BIM 3D solution for the construction industry, it only had AutoCAD & ADT.

ADT *can* do BIM if you put a lot of time and training into it, but otherwise will just be an 'enhanced' AutoCAD that automates some things, like walls/doors/windows. This is how the vast majority of firms I see, even the ones that claim to be 'heavy ADT users' use ADT, as an enhanced AutoCAD, and not as a true BIM system. And since many people see the value in BIM, and want to use BIM, I see more and more firms that HAVE ADT switching to, or looking at switching to, Revit- simply because they have been working with ADT for years now, and haven't even gotten to the point where Revit is OUT OF THE BOX.

So:
AutoCAD -> CAD
ADT/MDT -> Object CAD
Revit / Inventor -> 3D Information Modeling, the next step beyond CAD.

So there really is space for all three. If Autodesk 'kills off' either product they are in for a world of hurt on either side, for there are many using ADT, but many also looking to do more than just CAD. With both products they have something to offer everyone, otherwise they would be loosing people to other products. And if ArchiCAD was more viable, or if Revit had stayed solo, or been bought out by someone else, Autodesk would be scrambling to write something like Revit, just like they scrambled years ago to write Inventor when Pro-Engineer hit the scene (which, BTW, was created by some of the same people behind Revit ;-) )

My 2 cents.

[Marek Brandstatter]

If you want to *represent* buildings - go ADT/Autocad

If you want to *simulate* buildings in a single shared 4D building information model where all project deliverables (plans, sections, elevations. perspectives, schedules, estimates etc) are real-time by-products of the "virtual building" - go Revit.

[BomberAIA]

Revit is everything ADT wants to be. Revit was designed for architects, not ba generic drafting cad program as Acad was. ADT is just Softdesk on top of Acad, trying to be a 3D program. AEC, Softdesk and now ADT does not do what Revit does. All the programs sucked then and they still suck! Revit is the way to go.

[skpark]

Okay fine, no point in mere speculation of autodesk's direction. But for the record, I, the original poster, didn't ask you "ADT or Revit." You guys have a knee-jerk defense mechanism kick in as soon as someone even mentions ADT. The moderators did something -- I didn't start a new thread nor did I choose this title.

I LOVE REVIT. REVIT IS FANTASTIC. I didn't make that clear before. So I finally have the time to try and learn it thoroughly, and that's what I'm doing. I had a moment of weakness/nostalgia for ADT though (just miss the rhythm I was used to), so I thought I would check out the new release... just got worried about corporate agenda when I saw some of the 2005 features, that's all. Do I really have to break it to you guys, that a product's superiority does not have too much to do with its market share, nor its consequent viability for further development by its manufacturer?

Someone told me to talk to a dealer. Thanks, but I was one for a number of years. A great one, too, I think. It made me really skeptical about autodesk.

[aaronrumple]

Personally, I think Autodesk’s marketing changes direction more than the wind. I don't expect any leadership in Autodesk promoting the "best" or "right" software. As one Autodesk salesman recently told me, "We don't make the market, we follow the market." So if enough seats of AutoCAD are sold as ADT, then I have little doubt that Autodesk would pull the plug on Revit.

As an interesting note, Autodesk has this statement on their web site:

"3. Will Autodesk continue to develop Autodesk Architectural Desktop?
Yes. With more than 300,000 Autodesk Architectural Desktop licenses worldwide and growing, Architectural Desktop clearly continues to be a powerful AutoCAD® software–based solution for building design professionals."

This is very contrary to their long held policy that they don't comment on future releases and products. In fact I can find no other product in this line that garners such a clear statement of support for infinite future development. As a business owner, this is a statement I can base future business decision on (…or take to court.) I'm sure a good lawyer could even argue that this would keep Autodesk from making ADT only available as Revit/ADT as they have done with the Inventor/Mechanical Series.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have such as statement regarding the future of Revit? ;-)

[skpark]

Eeeeexactly. Thank you for the feedback, Aaron. It's somewhat understandable that Autodesk avoids making official comments about future development, but users (and their dealer consultants) should be able to know what the long term ROI will be. I've influenced a whole lotta dollars worth of CAD purchasing decisions, still do it a bit in an unofficial and personal capacity, and I like to sleep easy at night. I saw the statement you quote above, and I agree that it's pretty decisive. Though I also remember their being quite clear about their aim to replace ADT with Revit, shortly after the acquisition. Don't mean to start an Autodesk-bashing session, though. Thank you, Autodesk, for AutoCAD and ADT and 3dsMax and especially Revit, my favorite programs.

[Scott D Davis]

I think Autodesk was almost forced to make that statement. After the aquisition, I think the "Revit is Autodesk's future" talk really frightened 250,000 people who had purchased ADT. The uprising, and the fact that Autodesk was about to have a mass exodus of a couple hundred thousand ADT users, forced them to make a statement that was completely out of character for Autodesk. They had to make that statement to keep people dedicated to Autodesk. Then, once they keep the majority around, then they take a slower process of introducing Revit to the masses. Autodesk had to keep their existing customers happy, if there was ever a chance to get them to buy into Revit down the road. Tick them off and drive them away, they will never buy another Autodesk product.

[gregcashen]

Okay fine, no point in mere speculation of autodesk's direction. But for the record, I, the original poster, didn't ask you "ADT or Revit." You guys have a knee-jerk defense mechanism kick in as soon as someone even mentions ADT. The moderators did something -- I didn't start a new thread nor did I choose this title.

I LOVE REVIT. REVIT IS FANTASTIC. I didn't make that clear before. So I finally have the time to try and learn it thoroughly, and that's what I'm doing. I had a moment of weakness/nostalgia for ADT though (just miss the rhythm I was used to), so I thought I would check out the new release... just got worried about corporate agenda when I saw some of the 2005 features, that's all. Do I really have to break it to you guys, that a product's superiority does not have too much to do with its market share, nor its consequent viability for further development by its manufacturer?

Someone told me to talk to a dealer. Thanks, but I was one for a number of years. A great one, too, I think. It made me really skeptical about autodesk.

Honestly, I think you need to talk, not to a dealer, but to a user in a similar office. There are all types of users here. See if you can't get one of them to sponsor you in their office for a day. Let them how you how they are using Revit. Experience the workflow. The truth is, using Revit is not "like using AutoCAD only different". It is not the difference between using a VCR or a DVD Player. It is the difference between using a pencil or a computer, driving or walking. It is a huge shift in the entire workflow and must be managed as a "business change," which we all know is not straightforward. The best way to see exactly how Revit will impact you and your office is to experience it firsthand.

[Danny Polkinhorn]

Someone told me to talk to a dealer. Thanks, but I was one for a number of years. A great one, too, I think. It made me really skeptical about autodesk.
The reason I mentioned that was because they are sometimes an impartial assistant in choosing the right software for you. People on newsgroups shouldn't answer those types of questions. Yes, I mistook your post to be a question of "what do I do" mainly based on the title. My apologies.

In answer to your first question (as I re-understand it), yes, ADT may have some of the "look and feel" of Revit and Revit may have some of the "look and feel" of ADT. They are products of the same company and it would be silly for the two teams not to talk to each other and share knowledge (or experience).

So in summary and in answer to your second question, both products will continue development as long as people still buy them (isn't that true for every company?) Keep buying Revit and they'll continue to develop it.

"Revit is Autodesk's future" talk really frightened 250,000 people who had purchased ADT
If Autodesk 'kills off' either product they are in for a world of hurt on either side
As one Autodesk salesman recently told me, "We don't make the market, we follow the market".

[PeterJ]

I started a new thread for you, the question seemed to be being asked in the wrong place. I gave the topic an arbitrary title based on what I thought you were asking. Sorry if that meant it kicked the thread off in a different direction to that which you were expecting.

I'm not sure that there is a knee-jerk reaction from people, you certainly have very balanced responses from some here, witness Jeffrey McGrew coming out with a white helmet reading UN and advising that the entire range of Autodesk AEC offerings were valid, but just for different users needs. I think that Danny is right that the people here have generally made the decision already so they are bound to be a little evangelical and perhaps that reads as a knee-jerk reaction.

[mlgatzke]

Skpark,

I suppose, if you wanted to sit in and visit with someone who uses Revit on "real" day-to-day projects - the first question to ask would be, "What part of the world are you in?" Then, everyone could see where you're located and we could see if you are near anyone in the forum to visit with.

[skpark]

oh man, I have never felt so misunderstood...
but! sincere thanks to everyone anyways, as this forum is proving to be a great resource as I go through tutorials and first revit project. Haven't had to post a technical question yet, since the answers have been here already. Kudos to you.