Persistant Brickwork/Wall

[ita]

Project background: Originally constructed around 1898 -1905 and altered many times over its history. documents are scrappy and incomplete. It was easier to construct the building from its original form as best we could and implement the changes as phases. this approach has proved to be very successful and we now have a model of the building up to its present day form - warts and all.

Issue: the original vertical hung windows (both the same famil and identical in all respects) were placed inthe parent wall in phase 1. Nothing on this wall changed until phase 4 when the two windows were demolished (using the hammer) and replaced with voids to construct ruled curtain wall windows.

The voids could not be inserted over the zone of the RH window. The objects had to be inserted to the left in the parent wall (and could also be inserted over the location of theexisting LH window) and the moved in the right direction into position.

The outcome is the LH window has demolished correctly and has allowed the subsequent object to insert (see partial position of LH window), while the RH retains the child wall infill from the demolished window. The only solution I have found has been to remove the original RH window entirely - making the model an in-exact record of the structure - or have two files; the model up to the demolition ofthe RH window and another model after the demolition of the RH window.

Revit constantly ammazes me in its ablity to handle these complex scenarios and then I hit this example without a suitable workaround and . . . . ???? where to from here?

Any suggestions welcome . . . and for the factory - this is not the first time this has happened. In the past I have removed the wall and strated again - but in this case I cannot do that without a lot of destruction and loss of work. Is this a bug? a setting error? or just one of those occasional Revit thingies?? :screwy:

[PeterJ]

Can you demolish the rogue infill section in the current section?

[Scott D Davis]

You cant replace the areas with voids to put in the curtain walls. The best way to describe it, is to think 'how would I build this?' Well, first, you would demo the existing windows, which you did. Next, you would *demo* the portions of the wall to receive the new windows! Then you would put the new curtain wall windows in the hole.

Now, how to demo the portions of the wall? This is where Revit needs some improvement, but I think you are going to have to edit the profile of the exisitng wall to add the openings. Then duplicate the wall in the same place, and edit the profile of the duplicate wall, and make the openings the only remaining part of the wall, then use the demo hammer, and 'demo' the wall which is actually the openings....make sense?

If that doesn't work, you are going to have to split the wall into verical and horizontal chunks around the openings, then use the hammer to demo out the wall portions for the openings.

[ita]

Hi Peter, yes, but it returns when a new window (original family type) is inserted. BTW the family has worked perfectly many times before both on this model and others.

[Scott D Davis]

When you demo the window, Revit replaces the hole with a section of wall. When you add the voids to the wall, Revit doesn't know you are trying to add void to the 'replacement wall' portion, too. You must demo the hole in the wall the size of the new curtain wall window.

Another thought...create a new wall based family like a window, but it will be only the wall cutting void. Make the 'void family' the size of your new curtain wall winodw. Pop the family in the wall like its a window, and see if it 'deletes' the rouge piece. Then build your curtain wall into the openings.

Brainstorming....build your 'curtain wall' windows as window families, and insert them into the wall.

For some reason, voids in families will cut a wall, and send the cut portion to the demo phase, while just cutting voids in a wall in a project will not.

[ita]

Scott, the question I have, is that this system/method has worked well previously - so why with this item?. this method has got around other related issues such as creating a change to the parent wall as a phase process that can be identified in the model and phase.

Another similar and possibly related issue, is that void objects placed in untouched walls display perfectly, If you then insert the same object (or another void object and sometimes famil objects) into the same wall at a later phase, there arn't any lines to the perimeter of the opening. My good friend "parkinson" (a Zoog and AUG member raised this some months ago on Zoog) eventually solved the issue by drawing "model lines" onto the opening outline in the family and that method ensures that the perimeter is visible in the model and othographic projections.

Martin Parkinson ("parkinson") and I do a lot of renovation work and to be able to use Revit in this work has been a revolution. But we probably hit (these) type of issues that others would not come across in normal processes.

Scott if it is an issue related to the inner workings of Revit, then cuold it become a wish list item for some housekeeping work? :neutral:

[Scott D Davis]

Maybe I mis-read the first time? Are the 'voids' you are making the openings with a "void family", or are you editing the wall profile and creating openings, or are you adding 'in-place' voids to cut the wall?

[ita]

Hi Scott, Void families - there are many void openings (some existing some later filled and some made in more recenttimes - like twithing the last 40 years!!) in the existing building that the families are easier to use + they become objects in the relevant phase rather than void profiles in the wall.

[tatlin]

Scott/Ita,

You should not need to demo any portions of the wall manually. When you add a window or door in the later phase, the overlapping portions of wall should be demo'd automatically.

Let's take a simple example: Imagine an existing wall and window (phase created == Existing). Part of your renovation work requires you to replace the window with a door. In your 'New' phase, bust out your trusty Demolish tool (hammer icon) and demo the window (this will make an 'infill' wall to fill in the hole you just made). Now just place the new door where you want it. Revit should figure out what parts of wall to cut. The door will cut an opening in the existing wall (below where the window used to be) and also cut the infill wall. This will work for many differnt overlapping cases - doors and windows of arbitrary sizes and postions.

Ita,

Does this example work for you? If so, I suspect there could be a bug in the more complicated cases you have. It looks like some of the infills created from mulitple intersections are forgeting that they should be cut away. Can you post the file or send it to support?

thanks,

-matt



You cant replace the areas with voids to put in the curtain walls. The best way to describe it, is to think 'how would I build this?' Well, first, you would demo the existing windows, which you did. Next, you would *demo* the portions of the wall to receive the new windows! Then you would put the new curtain wall windows in the hole.

Now, how to demo the portions of the wall? This is where Revit needs some improvement, but I think you are going to have to edit the profile of the exisitng wall to add the openings. Then duplicate the wall in the same place, and edit the profile of the duplicate wall, and make the openings the only remaining part of the wall, then use the demo hammer, and 'demo' the wall which is actually the openings....make sense?

If that doesn't work, you are going to have to split the wall into verical and horizontal chunks around the openings, then use the hammer to demo out the wall portions for the openings.

[PeterJ]

Revit should figure out what parts of wall to cut.
Matt

Can you fix it so that it will show the brickwork toothed in course by course or every three courses as I choose? I suppose I have to make some more window families with detailed components showing a making good hatch around the inserted windows to achieve this kind of detail.

[Scott D Davis]

Matt,

I think in Ita's example, he was trying to create openings in the existing wall, in which he was placing 'curtain walls' as windows. Thats why I suggested demo'ing the portions of the wall he wanted as openings.

It would be easier to create a new window family, then insert them into the wall as Matt has explained.

[ita]

This is now the fifth project with the same issue. :!:

My previous project file (for starting this thread) was too large to send to the factory, but I now have a small residential renovation that is small enough to send. This issue needs the attention of the masters!!

The question is "Where do I send it too?" :???:

[beegee]

Ian,

I would start with your reseller support. If they can't deal, they will flick it to the factory.

Or, ....If you contact HQ support, they used to have a buzzsaw account thet could be used to upload large files.

[ita]

Thanks beegee,

I have some distinctions on this phenomenon which I have included in my email to my reseller. The issue is this:

THE ISSUE: Following the demolition of an existing wall based object in an existing structure wall element, Revit fills in the void remaining with a parent object material. For example; a brick wall contains a window. In (say) phase 2 (lets call it demolition) the window is demolished and the wall "heals the void" with the parent wall material (the default condition).

In the next phase (say) phase 3 (called new construction) a void/window/door type family object is placed in the original wall at the same location of the demolished object.

NOW: If the void/window/door family object partly crosses the "healed wall" it deletes that portion of the healed wall correctly. However, if the void/window/door family encloses the entire "healed"area, the healed area is not deleted and is visible inside the boundary of the enclosing family. In fact it should delete the "healed area" completely.

So this only happens when the original healed area is enclosed by a new family. When it is cut it does not occur.

[tamas]

This is now the fifth project with the same issue. :!:

My previous project file (for starting this thread) was too large to send to the factory, but I now have a small residential renovation that is small enough to send. This issue needs the attention of the masters!!

The question is "Where do I send it too?" :???:
When you have a small issue in a large file, it is usually easy to simply copy the bad portion and paste it into a new document.
Say you are in a 3D view with last phase and "Show All". Just box select the area you are having trouble with, hit "Edit->Copy" to put them on the clipboard. Open a new empty document and hit "Edit->Paste".

More often than not the pasted objects will exhibit the same exact problem and can easily be sent to support.