How to scale a fill pattern depending on drawing scale?

[studiodd]

Hi,

In the Netherlands, the scale of a drafting fill pattern is depending on the drawing scale. See the attached table, the first column lists the drafting pattern name, the third column and further lists the scale factor of the drafting fill, every column reflects a drawing scale.

I suppose this is not possible in Revit? I know the coarse fill pattern override, but when you watch the attached table, you can see that there are more scale factors necessary for a given pattern dan the coarse and fine scale patterns of revit.

How do you guys handle this stuff, or are 2 fill pattern scales enough for the american way of drafting?

I wished you could set a scale factor depending on drawing scale for every drafting pattern, or even better, for a material, the possibility to select a different pattern AND scale based on drawing scale.

Greetz,

Ivan

[patricks]

Drafting fill patterns are based on the actual measurements on the sheet. So you might have a pattern of lines 2mm apart, and it will always be 2mm apart on paper, no matter what scale the drawing is.

Model fill patterns, on the other hand, go by the scale of the drawing. With a model pattern you might have lines that are 0.5m or 1m apart, and it will scale with the drawing. Is that what you're needing?

[studiodd]

Drafting fill patterns are based on the actual measurements on the sheet. So you might have a pattern of lines 2mm apart, and it will always be 2mm apart on paper, no matter what scale the drawing is.

Model fill patterns, on the other hand, go by the scale of the drawing. With a model pattern you might have lines that are 0.5m or 1m apart, and it will scale with the drawing. Is that what you're needing?

no, i know the difference. I need drafting fill patterns, that scale a certain amount on a different dawing scale (see attached table in my first post). These are general dutch cad drafting rules.

[studiodd]

No comment on his one, this must be a serious issue for most users, or am I missing something?

When a design develops from scale 1:500 to 1:50, don't you ever have issues with drafting pattern scale?

Ivan

[iru69]

No comment on his one, this must be a serious issue for most users, or am I missing something?

When a design develops from scale 1:500 to 1:50, don't you ever have issues with drafting pattern scale?
Maybe you could post a "graphic" example of where this is a problem?

I think the lack of response is partially due to this not being a problem for most Revit users. I would guess that most Revit users are very happy to leave behind the days of AutoCAD scale factor tables.

[paullee]

I'm not sure I'm following all this, but I need to have an earth pattern for a filled region that has a smaller scale. Can I modify the one that comes with revit to accomplish this?

[sbrown]

I'm not sure I'm following all this, but I need to have an earth pattern for a filled region that has a smaller scale. Can I modify the one that comes with revit to accomplish this?


Yes just click on the fill patterns dialog box, click new, check the custom box, browse to the revit.pat file, highlight the earth hatch and in the scale box change the value. give it a new name. done.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

After you've created those different patterns you can then use filters and assign the new hatch on a view by view basis as required by the scale factor.

[paullee]

Re: "just click on the fill patterns dialog box, click new, check the custom box, browse to the revit.pat file, highlight the earth hatch and in the scale box change the value. give it a new name. done".

When I check the custom box (Revit Structure 4), I get a New Pattern dialogue box and all I see in the browse box are line patterns, so I click the import button, but I can't find the "Earth" pattern in any of the revit directories. Is this pattern only in my model?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

The pattern should be one of the patterns in the standard revit.pat file. So you import the whole .pat file into Revit and all the patterns within that file will be available.

[paullee]

Thanks, I finally got it!

[studiodd]

Maybe you could post a "graphic" example of where this is a problem?

I think the lack of response is partially due to this not being a problem for most Revit users. I would guess that most Revit users are very happy to leave behind the days of AutoCAD scale factor tables.

For example, look at the attached brick fill pattern (it is called 'metselwerk' in Dutch). I have attached 3 screenshots of 'metselwerk' fill pattern at the scales 1:5, 1:50 and 1:200. In the screenshots you can see that the fill pattern size (drafting pattern) is different for each scale. Though these sizes do not exactly follow the table in my first posts, it seems obvious that a drafting brick pattern at scale 1:5 should be 'bigger' than a brick pattern at scale 1:50.

I can imagine using different material names for detail components and for coarse scale drawings, like ''brick' and 'brick-detail component'.

But I really think there should be a solution like in ADT, where, for every material, you have the possibility to scale a hatch pattern based on drawing scale, and even select a different fill pattern. I believe this should be based on view template.

Or am I missing something?

Ivan

[aaronrumple]

But I really think there should be a solution like in ADT, where, for every material, you have the possibility to scale a hatch pattern based on drawing scale, and even select a different fill pattern. I believe this should be based on view template.

Or am I missing something?

Ivan
In Revit the default is for a constant printed scale for drafting patterns. I think this meets the needs of 90% of the users.

Now in 2008 - you can override any view with a custom hatch either per object or category. No it doesn't quite have the level of customization as ADT. But, personally I think ADT's system is way too much overhead. 90% more effort to take care of the last 10% of users needs.

Even the new override system in 2008 I'm estimating has increased view setup time by 5%.

[studiodd]

In Revit the default is for a constant printed scale for drafting patterns. I think this meets the needs of 90% of the users.



So does this mean that:
- I should use a material 'brick_details_1:5' for my details 1:5 (with a large fill scale for my fill patterns), a material 'brick_details_1:10' for my details 1:10 (with a smaller fill scale for my fill patterns) and a material 'brick' for my 1:50 / 1:100 / 1:200 (with the smallest fill scale for my fill patterns)?

The table I submitted is from a Dutch standard for CAD drawing. As jou can see, for example the material name 'staal', when I make a plan view 1:50, the pattern should be scaled 5x. But when I make a plan view 1:20 the pattern should be scaled 4x.

Or when I use material 'metsw' (brick) for a detail 1:5, the pattern should be scaled 1x, but when I want to show the same detail 1:10 I should use a scale factor 2.5x.

These scaling factors are used to keep a drawing readable at different scales, sometimes it happens when I use the same fill patterns at different drawing scales, the pattern simply disappears because it is to large! I really would appreciate if I could stay to this standard as close as possible.

But I am willing to learn. How do you handle this in the US, is there a standard for fill patterns, related to drawing scale? And do you draw your details with fill patterns that are only adjusted for that specific scale?

[LRaiz]

I do understand that you are accustomed to a system that uses different patterns for different view scales. However I do not understand the fundamental reasons for such a system. If such reasons do exist please enlighten us.

It is easy to explain the reasons behind existing Revit conventions for model and drafting patterns. Model patterns behave like real physical objects and thus scale in proportion to view scale. Drafting patterns on the other hand are good for schematic representation of materials. They are good for creation of a consistent set of documents where the reader can recognize the material easily and addresses the need for consistent symbolic documentation without unnecessary complexities.

Did your system originated because of some fundamental need or simply came about because drafting software like Autocad and ADT allowed you to do it? In the latter case it can be questioned if this functionality is appropriate for a modeling system like Revit. May be it is more reasonable to expect that drafting converts will reexamine their needs and either spell them out better or repent.

[studiodd]

I do understand that you are accustomed to a system that uses different patterns for different view scales. However I do not understand the fundamental reasons for such a system. If such reasons do exist please enlighten us.

The overall reason this system exists is probably that when an object gets to small, certain 'bigger' drawing patterns tend to disappear (pattern too big for an object).

It also seems to be a matter of esthetics.

And, though I really could imagine a hatching standard where pattern scale could disappear, we are bound (by the government) to our national standard (NEN 47, www.nen.nl) and I think there is also a international standard (ISO 8048:1984).

[iru69]

First off, can you use a model pattern? Model patterns will get bigger and smaller depending on the scale of the drawing.

Second, if model patterns don't work 100% of the time, you can either have a series of different sizes for each drafting patterns and use over rides or filled regions (for details).

Thirdly, see what kind of wiggle room you can get out of your national/international standards. Standards that arbitrarily impose hatch scales at different scales of detail are archaic and need to be changed. Your national standards board needs to be notified that their standards are obsolete and it will eventually hold participants back from competing on an international level.

Finally, while personally I don't see any benefits to using such a feature as you suggest, there are times when being able to scale patterns would be very useful and I suggest you submit a feature request to Autodesk along those lines.

[studiodd]

Hello again,

First, thank you all for answering my questions. I really appreciate it.

Another thing about fill patterns and standardisation: I 'd really like to be able to have a hatch pattern with a colored filled background.

Please find attached an example of a section and a dutch standard hatching table. I know you can overlay a transparent filled region, but I mean a drafting or model fill that can be cut.