Revit 9.1 Wall Wraps on cavity walls

[david.32492]

Hi I have a query on Revit walls. In the UK the blockwork on a cavity wall will return to the outside of the wall as shown on the Revit file. The issue is that we will have external and internal block work as well and should tie in accordingly, but does not. The reason for this is due to the core boundary. I had to create the blockwork on the cavity wall below the wrap to get the return.

I do not want to add a cavity closure on the window/door style, but keep this assigned to the wall to look exactly as is on the drawing so the hatching is well defined. I have attached a similar ADT 2007 drawing to how it should appear.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Dave

[ws]

Dave,

Have you attached the same file twice perhaps?

No matter, I can see what you are getting at.

As a new user myself at Revit in the UK I was very interested in this and have spent some time trying to achieve the inner block return to the outer face, which is what you seem to be after. You have omitted the internal finish layer as well I see or that would have returned also - which is what happened when I tried this out on a Revit-supplied cavity wall.

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/cavityreturn1.jpg

Offhand I don't see how it can be done at the moment without causing the problem with partition walls, but as a new user that may not mean much... :?

If it's any consolation this peculiarity of UK construction causes mayhem among competing 3D cad products also in my experience (except perhaps ADT since you mention it, which I've not used so far)... and as for cavity returns on openings with tapered reveals... well it's usually simpler to put in a big cavity closer ;)

The normal construction on cavity returns I see down here (I assume from the rebate detail you work in Scotland?) has an insulated dpc running between the return and the inner face of the outer block/brickwork, rather than a full fill insulated cavity closer.

I don't do my 3 day Revit Essentials course until next month and this topic was going to be one I raised then, but I'll have a chat to the reseller in the meantime.

regards,

[ws]

Ah, of course...

you can right click on the join blue dot, and use 'disallow join', then move the partition wall back.

Still doesn't solve the cavity wall return really but that would allow your original wall to give you the blockwork returns without the partitions crossing the cavity?

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/REVITjoin2.jpg

[ejburrell67787]

If you guys are still detailing reveals in this manner you might want to check that they are actually going to pass building control!! Returning a masonry wall to close a cavity is a huge cold bridge right through the wall the way you are showing it. :beer:

[ws]

well spotted Elrond ;-)

As I mentioned we tend to use a flexible dpc bonded to insulation around here because of the complex cavity wall plus stone facing.

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/troutbeck2.jpg

Building Control don't have a problem with this - here in the Lake District of Merrye Englande anyway.

If Dave is indeed up in Scotland, then they are possibly a bit stricter up there
(although I'm Scottish and it feels a sight colder down here than it ever did in Inverness ;-))
cheers,

[david.32492]

Hi all many thanks for your reply, I am actually in Belfast, Northern Ireland, who would use the Scottish end cap detail. The inner block work would not close all the way, but that is just how it is normally detailed for plan use. A close 1:10 detail is normally provided on a working drawing somewhere


We have migrated from ADT and attached is an ADT drawing. The issue in ADT is that you did not want too much detail, although you could control this by the display manager.I have attached a more detailed ADT wall and a simple one that would be used.
I would like Revit to be able to create something similar.

The reason such a detail came into play in NI was more due to detailing and in particular AEC/R14 as this is how that product would have detailed it way back when. ADT came along then the UK/Ireland and made life easy.

It would be great to have a similar standard in Revit then migrating would be easy from a detailing point of view. Could I create a mass on the window style and it would merge with the wall when inserted?

Never knew about the disallow join neat trick..thanks..

If you guys had any styles that would be great.

Dave

[ws]

Dave,

While searching I came across this useful little tutorial in David Duarte's blog
http://revitbeginners.blogspot.com/2006/08/wall-layer-wrapping-control.html

I need to study it when I have more time, but it looks promising.

I tried the UK reseller, but apparently this sort of query comes under 'post-training' support.. and of course I don't do my training until next month.

Funny old world ;)

cheers,

[dbaldacchino]

I think the dwg file is a 2007 version right? I'm still on ADT 2006, so could you please re-save the file as an earlier version? I'd like to take a look at what you're after.

[Justin Marchiel]

Dave,

While searching I came across this useful little tutorial in David Duarte's blog
http://revitbeginners.blogspot.com/2006/08/wall-layer-wrapping-control.html

I need to study it when I have more time, but it looks promising.

I tried the UK reseller, but apparently this sort of query comes under 'post-training' support.. and of course I don't do my training until next month.

Funny old world ;)

cheers,

This is a great method that works well. I have used it often in my door and window families.

Justin

[ws]

Just trying this out with Metric doors supplied with Revit... they show cavity closing insulation by default.
http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/doorstandardplan.jpg

Editing the door family,
If I try to create a new reference plane I get an error message saying that 'No more than 2 closure planes are allowed' -
and there are indeed already two parameters available when I Edit the door parameters, one set to leave the outer leaf un-returned and the other set so that finish layer is returned as far as the frame... but not against it, behind it.
http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/dooramendedplan1.jpg

Altering these parameters can only get you the outer leaf to return to the inner leaf, and/or the inner finish to return - not the actual inner leaf.
http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/dooramendedreturn1.jpg

Moving the inner leaf to the other side of the core boundary and we are back where we started with Dave's original problem... I think?

Would I be right in thinking that maybe by deleting or altering the original reference planes and parameters it would then be possible to return the inner leaf to the outer... ?

Needs a bit more thought I can see ;-)

[Paul P.]

William, try looking at any of the door and window families that come with the UK library that start with SCO_, have a play around with these as they are very useful to see how you can control the return of different layers. Hope that helps.

[ws]

thanks Paul,
I guess 'SCO' stands for 'Scotland' ? ;)

The 25 mm (1") overlap added to the outside wall leaf for the Scottish wall opening, has shown me one way of getting the finish layer of render ('roughcast' or 'wetdash' in fact as we have it) to display returned against the door frame - so presumably this could be contrived also for the plaster/drylining layer on the inside?

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/SCOdooramd1.jpg

However, in the wall layers I cannot see that the inner leaf will ever return to the outer unless the blockwork is below the core boundary (where it is loth to go, and so I guess I am missing something?).

I have to say that I am seriously impressed with being able to get down to this level of control within Revit.

It's painful getting the hang of it, but it's exactly what I was hoping for :)

cheers,

[Paul P.]

William, is this the sort of thing your after (see attached image), it's all about setting the layers of your wall you want to wrap and then in the family either door or window controlling the distance you want the layer to return. If that makes any sense, open up the family to see how it's set up it might give you a better idea.

[ws]

thanks, yes, sort of...

the right hand one with the inner wall returning to the outer is getting there.

Locally we use only 2 types of wall -
250 mm coursed rubble wall facing on
100 mm solid 3.5 N/mm2 blockwork with
100 mm full fill mineral wool insulation
100 mm solid blockwork and
plasterboard and skim drylining
(you can see it in the site photograph earlier in this thread)

and
3 coat roughcast (25 mm) on
100 mm solid 3.5 N/mm2 blockwork
on etc...
same as above

In the first the door/window frames sit in the outer leaf and in the second they site covering the cavity.

The problem has always been in other 3D cad to get different returns for the different layers in the wall, and usually I've fudged it somehow. It would be nice to get it sorted in Revit as near as practicable to the real detail.

I'm probably trying to run before I can walk, but it's all very instructive ;-)

many thanks,

[Paul P.]

William, can you post an example (CAD image) and I'll see what I can do.

[ws]

that's very kind of you Paul,

However to give you some idea of the complexity of it all here's a picture of the most common walltypes I use.
On the left are the best I can get them automatically created in my current 3D application (Nemetschek Allplan) and on the right is how I have to 'fudge' them to agree with how builders construct them in the real world.

Do you think there is any hope of getting a better approximation in Revit?

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk\Revit\walltypes1.jpg

cheers,

[rhys]

that's very kind of you Paul,

However to give you some idea of the complexity of it all here's a picture of the most common walltypes I use.
On the left are the best I can get them automatically created in my current 3D application (Nemetschek Allplan) and on the right is how I have to 'fudge' them to agree with how builders construct them in the real world.

Do you think there is any hope of getting a better approximation in Revit?

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk\Revit\walltypes1.jpg

cheers,
Detail One can be achieved with the family editor in almost full detail. There are posts here about closure lines and getting plaster to "master" the window frame. The trick is to use "closure lines" and to use voids in the window family NOT the standard opening cut in the window family template.
The same applies to your second detail. The third is more complex but should be possible.
The key point here however is to consider how much detail needs to be modelled rather than detailed. In the US and elsewhere 1:50 1:100 layouts typically have less detail than their Euro counterparts. Even so a clear 1:50 should not really need this much detail. So perhaps using details would be a quicker approach. Then again if your doing the same opening types again and again at say 1:20 it may be worth the time spent modelling in the family editor.

[dbaldacchino]

The key thing is that what you want to achieve is really a family editor task and not a wall wrapping in the wall family. This will make it harder on you since really you have to incorporate it within the doors and windows you use in these types of wall. And to make it more complex, you'll have to have unique doors & windows for each wall types used in order to customize the jambs/heads.

I have to be honest.....I'm not too thrilled about Revit's approach to this. ADT was a nightmare with trying to edit endcaps to make them nice and as filled with detail as was possible. But the endcaps/wrapping was a wall property and not a door's or a window's property. I think this increases complexity and forces your object libraries to grow exponentially to hangle all possible permutations. As stated above, I think I'd go for a schematic solution in plan and detail the jambs at higher scales with linework.

[ws]

thanks very much,

great to know the direction I should be going in.

I agree that at 1:50 which is the scale most drawings are produced here, it makes no sense to put a lot of detail into the Families - a compromise is needed.

A further refinement I need to introduce is having window seats below the level of the actual internal window cill - again, a very common local detail and much requested by clients in new build also.

Here is how Allplan creates it (one of the nice things in Allplan is the 'animation window', but it isn't very practical to work in that view, although possible)
http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit\allplanwindowseat1.jpg
you see the problem of not being able to return the internal lining into the window frame when the reveals are tapered and the 'seat' will have to be created manually.

It's a tricky detail in any 3D cad package I guess.

cheers,

[rhys]

thanks very much,



A further refinement I need to introduce is having window seats below the level of the actual internal window cill - again, a very common local detail and much requested by clients in new build also.


cheers,
Now that I can do! :-)

[ws]

many thanks Rhys - very kind of you

http://www.lakedistrict-architect.co.uk/Revit/rhyswindowseat1.jpg

You're getting me excited now ;-)

cheers,

[Paul P.]

William, with a bit of playing about with a window family using voids to create the opening you want and adding a filled region in the plan view of the family I think you could get something pretty close to what your after as previous posts have mentioned, attached is a window family that you can have a look at that I have played about with as a test. Its not the finished article might explode at any time.

[ws]

thanks Paul, that's extremely kind of you.

It looks pretty good.

'near enough for a country spot', anyway, as the locals say round here :-)

cheers,

[Paul P.]

No problem William, like I said that was just a test so the family could do with looking i.e. adding a parameter for the angle of the window splay and also the getting the filled regions to be flexible.

[dbaldacchino]

Ahhhh I actually was unaware that when you create a void like that, that the wall layers would actually wrap around an angled cut in the project environment! In the family editor they don't. The key is the placement of the closure planes in the family.

You should be able to control the size of the void/angle and make a window that works for more than one wall type, unlike what I previously hinted in a previous post.

[david.32492]

Wow I have been away for a bit and not reviewed my post, many thanks for the responses Paul, David and William. The recessed wall looks great. I have a solution to my original problem kindly provided from someone in Autodesk.

From my original wall if you remove the function from the brick wall this works no problem. Block walls do not cross insulation and the clean ups work no problem.

Many thanks for all the replies and sub queries that came out.

David

[ws]

that looks good David, thanks for posting it.

It still works in RA 2008 as well ;)

[tom.lauder]

Sorry to ressurect this thread but how do you remove the wall function I am using RA 2009 and I can remove the function but it wont let me ok the wall and save it.

Has it changed or am I missing something.

Thanks
Tom

[ws]

Hmm, you're right - the dialogue will not let you leave the Function entry blank.

I've just checked back in RAC 2008 and that does allow you to leave the entry blank.

Looks like they 'fixed' this handy feature in RAC 2009 ?

[tom.lauder]

bummer

Thanks for that I have noticed that in the example i downloaded the wall retains this feature when upgraded so I will go back and alter the wall in 2008 and bring it in.

Thanks

Tom

[dbaldacchino]

Found a way to get it to work in 2009....clear the entry just like you did in 2008 and then click on "Assign Layers" and the box will lose focus. Then you can click your way out :)

[ws]

There's no stopping some people ;)

Nice one.

thanks :beer:

[ws]

Well, it's taken me until Revit 2009wu1 :Oops:

but I finally I have my wall opening with variable tapered reveals, variable window seat, lintel, drip course and several other features including variable cement bands to overlap the window/stone junction.
Even better than I hoped it works in multi-layer walls as well with Revit correctly returning the insulated layers and blockwork.

It's a bit messy - there are some unused parameters from a formerly nested sash window (this example has a double casement nested) but if anyone finds it useful I've attached it.

Still a work in progress but the time it saves me in fiddling about is worth the hours spent developing it.

Thanks to everyone in these posts who set me on the right track :beer: