Blast from the Past; View Depth explained

[ron.sanpedro]

Once upon a time I found a great multipage PDF or DWF that explained View Range in great detail. If I remember right it was a couple of 24X36 sheets with all sorts of views and annotation. I have searched the forums and found some other great stuff, but not that specific example. Anyone remember this, and know where I can find it? Also, this is not the pair of DWFs that James V posted. Those are useful, but not the ones I remember.

Thanks!
Gordon

[s.messing]

Once upon a time I found a great multipage PDF or DWF that explained View Range in great detail. If I remember right it was a couple of 24X36 sheets with all sorts of views and annotation. I have searched the forums and found some other great stuff, but not that specific example. Anyone remember this, and know where I can find it? Also, this is not the pair of DWFs that James V posted. Those are useful, but not the ones I remember.

Thanks!
Gordon
This sounds great, Gordon! I always have trouble helping people wrap their heads around View Range as a concept and yet it is so fundamental to how Revit works and also how clearly different Revit is compared with CAD. I am searching now for these magical images and anything else I can find.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Paul P.]

Think it might have been by Steve Stafford, I might have it on the computer at home, will check when I get back if it's not already been posted by someone else.

Regards, Paul.

[ron.sanpedro]

Think it might have been by Steve Stafford, I might have it on the computer at home, will check when I get back if it's not already been posted by someone else.

Regards, Paul.

Drat! It was Steve, but it was Scope Boxes he was explaining, not View Depth! I am going to attempt to do half as well explaining View Depth in a class tomorrow, and if I succeed it will probably be worth posting. ;)

Best,
Gordon

[Justin Marchiel]

i think this is the file that you are looking. i can't remeber who posted it, so much credit to who ever did!

Justin

[ron.sanpedro]

i think this is the file that you are looking. i can't remeber who posted it, so much credit to who ever did!

Justin

That is the James V doc I mentioned. I included the examples stuff from Stafford on Scope Boxes for reference. I am hoping to find or create something this in depth. I despair that my knowledge is WAY too limited to do the topic justice.

Gordon

[Paul P.]

Hi Gordon, sorry about that for some reason I thought it was about controlling view depth like you and I can't find anything relating to view depth on my computer.

Hope you come up with something for your class.

All the best, Paul.

[Chirag Mistry]

I have the attached two files from another previous post on view range.

Hope this helps :)

[s.messing]

Thanks everybody! These are very helpful. Every time I try to explain to the group I spend half of the time tripping over my own inefficiencies and the other half being helped by someone who knows as much or more than I do. These visuals paint a pretty clear picture.

Cheers,
Stephen

[dbaldacchino]

I learned all there is to know about view range/depth from that dwf/pdf that James Van posted. They're concise and to the point! It would really help if Revit's help contained a lot more visual aids like that.

[s.messing]

I learned all there is to know about view range/depth from that dwf/pdf that James Van posted. They're concise and to the point! It would really help if Revit's help contained a lot more visual aids like that.
Totally agree! Any class I've ever been to, any presentation, no matter what the subject, the visual aides are what really drive the idea home. Without well placed snapshots of something, those of us that are visual thinkers and visual learners are usually less apt to remember/ understand the subject matter. Great work everybody! Keep 'em coming.

Cheers,
Stephen

[Kevin Janik]

Gordon,

Did you get what you needed and create something you would be willing to share with people here? Good graphics to explain things are really valueable.

Kevin

[jeffh]

...... It would really help if Revit's help contained a lot more visual aids like that.

We would love to include diagrams such as this (and are trying to do so) and I agree they can be very helpful in explaining difficult concepts.

That being said it is sometimes difficult to create effective diagrams. We have to work with image size restrictions and often can't use text in the images/diagrams because of translation issues when text is used in an image. There is not a really good way to annotate an image because the diagram has to be re-created for every language we translate into. If it is just an image we can create the image and reuse it over and over for all language translations.

We are working hard to make the documentation as useful as possible. And overcome some of these restrictions.

[pfschuyler]

I've got a question that's been nagging me for a long time. What happens to objects that lie exclusively in the red shaded area as shown in the attached PDF?

That area would be above the cut plane but below the top of the primary range. I've always been confused by this and I've never been able to get predictable results. It seems clear that objects within the primary range BELOW the cut plane show up predictably as you'd expect. But objects above the cut plane do not show, regardless of where I set the upper range. So what then is the purpose to the upper range?

The classic example of this is a high window which is above the cut plane but on the same floor. You want it to show up in plan. I can always use an underlay and then modify the linework to get that window to show, but I have never been able to control its visibility using only the view ranges. Did I miss something back in Revit 101, or has someone else figured this out?

Thanks.

Paul Schuyler

[miguel.108116]

Great thread. I've been looking for graphic explanations of this subject for a while. Thanks for bringing this up Gordon.

[jeffh]

I've got a question that's been nagging me for a long time. What happens to objects that lie exclusively in the red shaded area as shown in the attached PDF?

Items that are completly in this zone are not visible. Sometimes with families mounted high on a wall one trick would be to place an invisible model line that will cross the cut plane of the view. This will allow you to see something in this range.


The classic example of this is a high window which is above the cut plane but on the same floor. You want it to show up in plan. I can always use an underlay and then modify the linework to get that window to show, but I have never been able to control its visibility using only the view ranges. Did I miss something back in Revit 101, or has someone else figured this out?

For an example of a high window as you have described the best route to go would be to use a plan region around that specific part of the wall where the high window exists. Place the plan region and adjust the plan region properties to cut and show the high window.

[pfschuyler]

Jeff,

Thanks for the workaround suggestion but I have tried that one. Plan regions are an option, but in my opinion in this instance they are far more trouble than they are worth, unless you can isolate a large area with identical visual needs (like say a 1/2 level with a bunch of windows at the same upper level). If you draw a plan region around a small area and set its parameters for that upper window, it will draw everything within that plan region at that upper level, this can have unintended visual results. Its problematic for views as you may not want adjacent elements to show that way. Of course you could draw a real narrow plan region which will be "wrapped around" only that exact wall and its thickness, but if you start doing that your plan regions will start to become pretty complicated as you discover you need to do the same on several adjoining walls. Worse yet, you will rapidly lose track of your plan regions, especially if there are design changes and the wall moves, etc. And at some later date when you print you will get some visual surprises that seem to have no explanation (when in fact they are long lost plan regions).

My preferred workaround is to temporarily show those upper elements (like say in an underlay or wireframe view), and use the Linework tool to individually override those linework settings of the invisible elements. I do this all the time with overhangs and roof outlines that show in plan. Its not ideal but works to some degree.

So as far as I can tell, there is no real function at all to the Top of the primary range in the view settings. Can anyone find any specific use for that? I'm not sure I get at all what that is there for.

It would be great if that shaded area (in my PDF) had custom linetype settings. This could be a significant feature request. That way if you want some high windows to show, you would simply set their linetype settings within that upper primary view range to display the way you want (say dashed lines). It seems the simplest way to go about it and would be irrespective of design changes and workarounds.

Paul S.

[jeffh]

.... Of course you could draw a real narrow plan region which will be "wrapped around" only that exact wall and its thickness, but if you start doing that your plan regions will start to become pretty complicated as you discover you need to do the same on several adjoining walls. Worse yet, you will rapidly lose track of your plan regions, especially if there are design changes and the wall moves, etc. And at some later date when you print you will get some visual surprises that seem to have no explanation (when in fact they are long lost plan regions).

When editing a plan region you can use the dimension tool to constrain the edges of the plan region to a wall and window edges. This way if the wall or window moves because of a design change the plan region moves with the wall and window.

Plan regions are by no means perfect, but with a combination of view range, plan regions, and linework/detail lines most conditions can be represented.

[dbaldacchino]

Paul, I symphatize with you for being confused as this is poorly documented to this day (dare I say absent?). The Help (see View Range) does not explain what the Top Clip is for, but in fact it has a use: it's for ceiling plan views. In such case it's almost like you're looking upwards: the top clip plane for a ceiling view is like the the bottom clip plane for a plan view. It is quite intresting how the bottom clip plane in a ceiling view is greyed out (makes sense) while the top clip plane in a plan view is not (makes no sense). To me, this is a bug and the top clip plane in a plan view should be greyed out too; unless of course it has some undocumented use in a plan view which I'm not aware of. The view depth works the same, but this time it goes upwards (above the top clip plane). Hope this helps you understand what is going on.

I share the same feelings about some views you expressed too. I can't stand having to override linework for roof overhangs in each view. At least when I duplicate with detailing or duplicate as dependent, I should have the option to also replicate linework changes. Because of this inconvenience, most users resort to creating detail/model lines and locking them to the roof. This causes potential problems if constraints are removed as these lines will not represent the overhangs properly. But at least this way we don't end up with incomplete drawings that don't show roof overhangs, etc. I would prefer something like this to be automatic. Other elements I'd like to display with overhead linework automatically would be floor slab openings (such as skyights) and fur-downs in ceilings.

[Steve_Stafford]

...I would prefer something like this to be automatic...The earliest releases of Revit had automatic display of elements above and it was not well received and removed, ironic.

I prefer to overlay views on sheets to show things above as dashed using graphic overrides of elements so I have the greatest control over what is visible or not. Then I spend much less time messing with things later because the overlay view is already configured and changes just appear according to the special view's overrides. Revit looks down fine, and up fine it just doesn't look up and down at the same time and that is essentially what most folks are asking for. Two views works within Revit's "rules" and it just works.

I refer to View Depth as View "downth" in floor plans and View "upth" when in ceiling plans. The organization of the dialog should invert when in either type of views to make it a bit more obvious. The primary range in a plan view does affect elements that are above the cut plane, if they lie beyond the top offset of the primary range they won't be displayed even if you use the "invisible line" trick to make the element cross the cut plane. Aaron Rumple has shared a couple files in the past that do a nice job of explaining what happens to families regarding the view range settings, I believe upper cabinets for casework is the prime example.

And last fwiw, Plan Regions were designed to affect host and hosted elements and primarily the case of windows higher than the cut plane. They also make it easier to show entire roofs when they are cut by a floor plan's cut plane because of their proximity. They also permit you to alter the position of a stair's cut line if the plan region completely surrounds the entire stair sketch. They are not intended to change entire plans to show something below or above...at least that isn't what they expected us to do with them.

[dbaldacchino]

Thanks Steve, yes that's ironic but I wasn't around that time....good piece of history though :)

Here's the thread Steve is referring to: http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=33237&highlight=view+range

I remember my posts there were my earliest attempts at understanding view range too!

EDIT: Pay particular attention to the discussions about the Top Clip plane with regards to Windows, Casework and Generic Models. If these families have projected linework in them, if they fall just under the top clip plane, then the projected linework within the family is displayed.

[pfschuyler]

Thanks both of you for the detailed info. It makes perfect sense when thinking of the Top range as applied only in ceiling plans. I would agree though that it would be nice to see the Top range greyed out in regular plan views for total consistency.

But overall, when described that particular way the view range seems to be pretty straightforward and well thought out.

Cheers,

Paul S.

[dbaldacchino]

Actually Paul, it makes sense that it is not greyed out because of Windows, Casework and Generic Model families....see my previous post edits.