Revit window module

[clog boy]

Hi all.

I don't know if anyone ever mentioned it before as a specific topic, but Revit doesn't have a window function. Sure, it has a family editor. But if you'd want to create a window it would take all day. If you'd want to modify a set of windows for a new project, you'd be happy if you had six windows done by the end of the day (including plan swing and multi-leveled profiling).

All in all, Revit needs a module to create windows as if you'd draw a floor plan. Since Revit produces BIMs, what kind of information would you want to extract from a window? Me myself would be a happy man if you'd just be able to extract quantities for different types of mullions (wood, stone, aluminum etcetera) and fillings (glass, panel, door...). Mullions would be m1 and fillings would be square meters. Also, it would be desirable to extract room and level from a window. All this is to design and calculate 'green buildings', maintenance data, the building's estimated value et cetera.

What type of data would you want to extract from windows/doors? How would you envision a window module that produces windows in less than five minutes? Is the window module already a hot topic on the wishlist? Respond please if you want Revit to improve on this all-important subject.


Sincerely, Bram Weinreder (TriDiCare Netherlands)

EDIT: just to envision what we're talking about, I've attached a door/window as we decided we need, and as we'd like a future window module to 'generate'. Comments based on this rfa are welcome too.

[twiceroadsfool]

In my humble opinion, i dont think i would take much away from the Family Editor, in terms of window creation. Theres something to be said about modeling the geometry with a fair amount of accuracy.

Ill concede that the family editor takes some getting usd to, but i think everything youre looking to accomplish can be done easily with a family. Even the mullions and such, through nested families.

[Tom Dorner]

My 2 cents is that it would be a very useful functionality to have more 'wizards' in Revit Building (Architecture) similar to the truss wizard that is in Revit Structure.

Imagine a Window Wizard and a Door Wizard where the window or door can be assembled from a library of stock components. Yes I realize that one can accomplish this in the family editor, but the wizard functionality brings a more 'on the fly' way to create families by the user.

In my experience it is difficult to train every user to be a family master. It is also too much of a burden on those of us that can create families to constantly make new or modified families for a specific project condition.

With an expanded API, maybe a third party can start to take a look at adding this kind of functionality to Revit.

[aaronrumple]

Hi all.

I don't know if anyone ever mentioned it before as a specific topic, but Revit doesn't have a window function. Sure, it has a family editor. But if you'd want to create a window it would take all day. If you'd want to modify a set of windows for a new project, you'd be happy if you had six windows done by the end of the day (including plan swing and multi-leveled profiling).
Sincerely, Bram Weinreder (TriDiCare Netherlands)

EDIT: just to envision what we're talking about, I've attached a door/window as we decided we need, and as we'd like a future window module to 'generate'. Comments based on this rfa are welcome too.
Well - I think I could do a few more than six even by lunch time. However it is something that I've talked about with the factory a long time ago. They need to support two modes for door/window creation. They need a dialog like ADT which can build 80% of the basic family types most people need. They also need the family editor for more complex families.

As to you're particular family:

If you are going to do it as a window, the door should be nested. Create a series of un-hosted door panels which can easily be inserted into other designs. This maximizes component reuse. I'd do the same thing for the transom panel. Then I could use it in any window.
You have way too many ref. planes. This could be simplified quite a bit.
Personally, I would have made the frame as one extrusion - and then used a void to cut out the areas for glazing. This would result in far fewer objects to draw and manage.
I would have used fewer formulas and more constraints. I don't read dutch so I'll have to ask my wife what your intent is.
I would question whether this should even be done as a window. I would have made a curtain wall, grouped it and used it repeatedly in the project. I'd just need my door panel and transom panel.

[clog boy]

Personally, I would have made the frame as one extrusion - and then used a void to cut out the areas for glazing. This would result in far fewer objects to draw and manage.
I would question whether this should even be done as a window. I would have made a curtain wall, grouped it and used it repeatedly in the project. I'd just need my door panel and transom panel.
[/list]
You're forgetting THE magic word: quantities. You can't put curtain walls in a window schedule. A Revit window module would have to look very much like building a curtain wall, in my opinion.
Also, everyone would have to admit that some other CAD-programs (like ArKey or ArchiCAD) have far more usable window modules, which allow you to create windows in a matter of seconds.

@TRF: I concur with Tom. If there would be one incentive for me to become a programmer, it would be to design such an API. All I lack is time and, maybe, talent.


EDIT: important parameters to me are mullion dimensions, offset from the outside of the wall to the front of the window ('negge') and how deep a filling (door, glass, etc) is nested within the mullion ('sponning'). These are identical for each mullion of the same type.
It's 'best practice' to constrain parameters to reference planes, and not to the model. That's why I use so many.

[twiceroadsfool]

Imagine a Window Wizard and a Door Wizard where the window or door can be assembled from a library of stock components. Yes I realize that one can accomplish this in the family editor, but the wizard functionality brings a more 'on the fly' way to create families by the user.



Now i see what you and the OP were talking about. That indeed would be very interesting... Allthough i think that is the intent of the OOTB paramaterized families. But yes, a wizard for such standard components could be beneficial...

[AP23]

Bram,

Have you tried using the NL localiser? If not, you should download it at http://www.autodesk.nl/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=431528&id=5590111 . There you will find all the content to make window and door families under 5 minutes. There is also a complete manual on making these nested families.

[aaronrumple]

You're forgetting THE magic word: quantities. You can't put curtain walls in a window schedule.

EDIT: important parameters to me are mullion dimensions, offset from the outside of the wall to the front of the window ('negge') and how deep a filling (door, glass, etc) is nested within the mullion ('sponning'). These are identical for each mullion of the same type.
It's 'best practice' to constrain parameters to reference planes, and not to the model. That's why I use so many.
I would argue that this isn't a window. (Least in these parts of the world ;-) ), but rather a storefront and would be scheduled differently than a window. How would the door be scheduled?

I think early in Revit is was almost required that you constrain to ref planes or you would have issues with the family. However these days I tend to work from overall to detail. I'll have the big idea in ref. planes and then work the detail to that. Things tend to end up cleaner and simpler to understand in the end. I will dimension a sketch now, where in the past, I would have never done that....

For what its worth, I've attached a sample of how I would approach it. (...not complete, but all the basic concepts are there.

[Anthony.d]

Marvin Windows and Doors created a nice 3D add-on module for ADT that creates there window and doors, it would be great if they did that for Revit as well.

[tc3dcad60731]

Marvin Windows and Doors created a nice 3D add-on module for ADT that creates there window and doors, it would be great if they did that for Revit as well.

Actually Father-of-Ten is employed by Marvin if I am not mistaken and he is working on a Revit Family as we speak. He has announced that he will let everyone know when he is ready for some testing.

Here in my part of SC we spec Andersen or Marvin for windows and Andersen or Therma-tru for doors. For some reason Pella and others are not used as much. Least I have not seen them listed on the residential projects that I am familiar with.

[Steve Jager]

Chief Architect and Vectorworks have very good window and door editors and they are very easy to use. I have been trying to build d & w's in those programs an import into Revit.
You have total control over what you want to do including finishes.

[Calvn_Swing]

To start with, I'm coming from an integrated design/build firm. So, my perspective is a little "warped."

I completely agree with the "wizards" idea for most content. What I don't want is what Revit has done with most system families and even to some extent with OOTB content. If those wizards can't make the condition I want, I still want to be able to make something custom using a more advanced version of the family editor. I want to be able to make walls and such that don't conform to the Revit way and still have them schedule. So, though your idea appeals to me when I think about most of our users, I can also see Autodesk taking it too far and making something that hobbles us from making what we need. Autodesk's market is mostly traditional design firms. So, Autodesk programs for them. As a result, we've had numerous problems trying to embed scheduling and cost information into Revit. Just something as simple as having the ability to break up walls into their component layers would do us a HUGE favor. However, it isn't that likely to happen as most users don't care to have them broken up to make a construction schedule.

So, I'm all for it as long as you can customize the wizard with your own content (like the curtainwall editor) and as long as you can always pull it into the family editor when the wizard just doesn't cut it.

That being said, in my part of the world we'd schedule that as a storefront, do an elevation, and quantify it differently. However, you bring up a valid point. We can't get the curtainwall tool to give us the kind of scheduling we want for quantities because it is a wizard tool and what we need isn't built in. This is the downside to your suggestion...

[clog boy]

We've tried the localiser, and found it to be inadequate. It contains very interesting core components, but, for starters I replaced the standard opening with two voids (because the opening in the inner wall is different from the outer wall. Also needs to be controlled by a parameter). Also I'd rather re-design a window than altering one I don't fully understand or appreciate.

Nesting mullions and fillings such as doors and glass is a computer-heavy task which we'd rather try to avoid.

The ultimate goal would be a window generator to create windows compliant with Revit's philosophies, and commonly acceptable CAD-standards, while still being able to tinker with the basic setup and the final result. For instance one would only need to specify where a mullion is placed and what filling is used where. (very much like a curtain wall indeed, but we need quantities)

But also my point of view may be warped, because I'm currently active in the real estate industry (we're contracted by rental companies). We need to digitize existing houses in a short amount of time, and they tend to have 'rather complex' window designs more often than not. I'm tired of testing and troubleshooting each of them 'just because the plan swing looks ugly'.

[/rant]


EDIT @AaronRumple: however I appreciate your Revit skills and experience, the window you've attached isn't detailed enough by far. But I get the basic idea, and the concept looks neat. The basic setup of your parameters is great too. I'd use it to constrain sweep paths (or if need may be, nested families). Thanks for sharing your approach.

[ejc]

The wizard based approach for creating basic windows and doors would help me sell Revit to some of the one and two man firms in my area. Many are worried that they would be stranded with out knowing how to use the family editor.

If you guys haven't checked it out yet, www.bimworld.com , is worth the time.

later,

ejc

[clog boy]

I engineered the next best thing to a window function.
Most windows have pretty roughly the same outline. It's a hole in the wall with mullions within. Reference planes define where the mullion starts (from the outside) and where a swing ends.
Suppose mullions are line-based nested families. You can place them as if it was a wall. It's there, parametric and all.
Next. Fillings, doors, glass, et cetera. Also line-based, but with a height attribute (as instance parameter) which can be aligned with the mullion above.
The mullion contains a parameter 'length', and the filling a parameter 'length' and 'width' (or Area if you will). Any recommendations on how to get them as totals in a schedule? That would help tremendously. Please keep in mind there's more of each in all families.