Revit Architecture 2008 unstable? [Archive]

rjcrowther

2007-04-16, 02:22 PM

Just yesterday I had my first crash. Placed a view on a sheet, hit properties of that view via right click, selected rotate 90deg. counterclock on sheet, then fatal error, save and exit. Didn't lose anything, but made me nervous. I tried running open GL off and it was a nightmare. very slow in shadows etc. I have a Dell Precision 390, 4GB Ram. Brand new, very fast. Hopefully it doesnt' become a problem.

Josh
You have 4GB Ram and your nervous....I have 1GB which pretty much means white knuckle terror. I'm still om 9.1 through lack of opportunity to change versions. I don't know if I am looking forward to this upgrade.

Rob

ford347

2007-04-16, 02:26 PM

You have 4GB Ram and your nervous....I have 1GB which pretty much means white knuckle terror
I feel your pain! I have another computer in the office right now I'm feeling the same way about. As a matter of fact, it's about to get a clean install....it's a cluttered up machine! I would say step up your save intervals. I think I've only ever experienced 1-3 crashes which it didn't give me the option to save a backup, so I haven't ever lost too much work. The one time or so I did I hadn't saved for over an hour and I lost a lot of work!

Josh

angelo

2007-04-16, 03:00 PM

Hmmm, haven't had one single crash after using it all weekend on a residential project upgraded from 9.1. I've experienced just the opposite with OpenGL--it slows my model down vs. software acceleration! ATI 256MB X1600 Radeon.

Take that back, I have had it crash on start-up, but 9.1 did that a lot too. Always starts on second try...

I'm experiencing a noticeable increase in speed navigating the model, and in some cases 2D views.

Angelo

david.kingham

2007-04-16, 03:29 PM

On laptops revit won't even open after 1 day of use, I have to reinstall to make it even open! Not having the problem on desktops though...very strange

hand471037

2007-04-16, 04:06 PM

On laptops revit won't even open after 1 day of use, I have to reinstall to make it even open! Not having the problem on desktops though...very strange

no problems here. Running just fine, zero crashes. So far. Knock on wood.

But then I've noticed that for whatever reason Revit runs more stable under Parallels than straight-up Windows.

kpaxton

2007-04-16, 05:23 PM

No problems here either... been running the Beta for over 2 months and now the Release... no crashes.

Wes Macaulay

2007-04-16, 05:28 PM

No problems here with the Beta or the release. We always have OpenGL on.

Tyveka

2007-04-16, 07:41 PM

No problems here either, with OpenGL on or off...

Calvn_Swing

2007-04-16, 08:25 PM

Sounds like System Instability...

If you have a test machine available do a clean install with Revit as the only APP and see how it goes. It may be a conflict with another program, or just too much junk in your computer's trunk...

BillyGrey

2007-04-16, 09:10 PM

Only one crash here on beta in 2 mo's., and no probs on download release using every day since it hit the site.

Fresh install also, I reformatted my drive and re-installed all my crit. app's when RAC became available. It was just time to do it. XP sp2, core duo2 2 gig ram ati 1600 pro 74g raptor for apps, raid1 mirror array for data.

Goog luck/skill with this one.

EDIT:

Forgive me for misplacing this thought, but;

Since I have been using RAC, I have noticed a "sleep apnea" problem. After some time in a session, the program freezes for perhaps 60 seconds or more. During this time, I cannot highlight/select any elements, or hover over a button and get them to respond, including saves.

When this happens, I go check my email, and come back and Revit is "awake" again.

I do not know if this behavior manifests itself as crashes on other machines, or it is disconnected from the thread topic, but I do know it happens on a laptop, and a workstation. Both machines have very different specs., and it happens to me frequently.

Matt Brennan

2007-04-16, 11:18 PM

It works great here on both win XP 64 and Vista Ultimate 64. No unusual crashes...

ford347

2007-04-17, 01:08 AM

Just crashed again. Trying to print to file. selected printer, choose sheets to plot, specified directory and chose plt, then hit print. Save as and exit....fatal error!! Crazy!

Josh

Chad Smith

2007-04-17, 01:17 AM

I sent off a few journal files which I collected from this mornings crashes to Autodesk to look at.

In the past 4 hours we have had 5 crashes on 3 PC's. It certainly is getting a little frustrating.

ford347

2007-04-17, 01:22 AM

twiceroadsfool

2007-04-17, 01:26 AM

Ive talked to someone here locally also having trouble... Saying its running extremely slow and bogging down.

On all of my systems, its abosultely flying. Im on HP and Toshiba systems, and shes on a Dell. All i can think of is some sort of hardware conflicts?

Chad Smith

2007-04-17, 01:32 AM

Hmmm, the name Dell seems to be consistent between the troubled PC's so far.

jcoe

2007-04-17, 01:33 AM

I have been using the beta version until I downloaded the live version a couple days ago. I have only had one crash but was promted to create a recovery file. I restarted Revit opened the recovery file and kept going. In Revit's defense, I did have 4 other applications open.

Henry D

2007-04-17, 10:54 AM

Hmmm, the name Dell seems to be consistent between the troubled PC's so far. It's not only Dell, because my PC which isn't a Dell is also coming to a grinding halt after a while.
It doesn't seem to have anything to do with file size.

I am wondering if this has anything to do with Revit and the internet. There is the request to have the way one uses Revit monitored (I haven't signed up)...maybe this is bogging things down. I am going to try unplugging my Internet connection and see if this makes any difference.

Another unrelated issue is that my DWF writer is no longer functional. I get an error message ...something to do with unable to run script.

........

To follow up....see if this has anything to do with the slow down: I disconnected from the internet and I have had no problems so far. Here are two pop ups that came up when I was disconnected. Could this be related to a pop-up blocker? I'll keep working disconnected and see what happens.

rjcrowther

2007-04-17, 11:58 AM

To follow up....see if this has anything to do with the slow down: I disconnected from the internet and I have had no problems so far. Here are two pop ups that came up when I was disconnected. Could this be related to a pop-up blocker? I'll keep working disconnected and see what happens.
You may be on to something will this. I know when using Autocad (2007), my PC slows drastically just before the communication centre pop-up appears. Although Revit is not Autocad, the communication centre notification must be pulling a few system resources if it reduces Autocad to a crawl for half a minute or so. With the new Revit being fairly hungry on computing power, this seems to be a logical course of action to take.

bowlingbrad

2007-04-17, 12:55 PM

Is there a line we can place in the INI file to disable our little communication center?

2007-04-17, 02:03 PM

Umm, more complex than I thought - but this looks as though it should work
http://themadcadder.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/12/disable_the_com.html

bowlingbrad

2007-04-17, 02:06 PM

Thanks for finding that, William.

Maybe this will help Chad.

narlee

2007-04-17, 05:21 PM

Umm, more complex than I thought - but this looks as though it should work
http://themadcadder.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/12/disable_the_com.html

That link didn't bring me to any reference to this issue - did I miss something or maybe the link content changed.

narlee

2007-04-17, 05:22 PM

A few versions ago, there was a memory leak problem the Factory had to fix. This sounds similar to me, but I'm no hard/software expert.

dbaldacchino

2007-04-17, 06:09 PM

For the life of me, I cannot figure out what the benefit/function of Communications center is going to be. If anyone has info. on this, please share!

Henry D

2007-04-17, 06:20 PM

Umm, more complex than I thought - but this looks as though it should work
http://themadcadder.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/12/disable_the_com.html
Thanks William! That must have taken some digging to find. I changed my registry to disable the communication center and that seems to have done the trick. I have been working all day with no freeze-ups. I only disabled the communication center and not the Patch Notifications as they suggested. I didn't like that communication center thing from the moment I saw it...reminded me of "Big Brother is watching you".

1. Start button-->Run--> regedit.exe

2. Search for the following location: HKEY_LOAL_MACHINE-->SOFTWARE-->AUTODESK-->R16.1-->ACAD-301:409-->CADMANAGER CONTROL-->COMMUNICATION CENTER

3. Right-click on "EnableCommunicationCenter" and choose modify.

4. Change the value data from 1 to 0 (zero).

5. Perform step #4 on the following as well: "EnableNonPatchNotifications" and "MaintenancePatchNotificationOption"'

That's it! Restart your computer and voila, WSCommCntr1.exe is not running.

Calvn_Swing

2007-04-17, 06:23 PM

For the life of me, I cannot figure out what the benefit/function of Communications center is going to be. If anyone has info. on this, please share!

Help File:

Communication Center provides quick access to resources at Autodesk, including the following:

1.Live Update Maintenance Patches. Receive automatic notifications whenever new maintenance patches are released from Autodesk.

2.Subscription Information and Extension Announcements. Receive announcements and subscription program news if you are an Autodesk subscription member (available in countries/regions where Autodesk subscriptions are offered).

3.Articles and Tips. Be notified when new articles and tips are available on Autodesk websites.

4.Product Support Information. Get breaking news from the Product Support team at Autodesk.

In other words,

Benefits:
1. Program instability and incompatibility on a frequent and repetitive basis.

2. Constant pop-ups about stuff you think you've paid enough not to be interrupted about.

3. Articles and Tips at least 1 month after you found them on AUGI forums.

4. This one takes the cake. "Breaking News" from the support team? I can see it now... "This just in, Program crashes and instability as a result of communication center activity." We will contact you via your communication center when we have more information...CRASH.... I mean really, how often does the support team release "breaking news." Is this a bad play on words or what? Breaking news about your program being broken... Good lord! I think the only time I've ever heard form the support team is when I've contacted them with a problem. I don't think they've ever contacted me. I'm not sure I want them to either. Not to mention the fact that "breaking news" is usually for people who aren't involved in a situation. People on a sinking ship don't watch the TV to find out about why the ship is sinking, and who might be on it. They kind of already know. Now, if the support team is going to use this to tell Revit users about every time Architectural Desktop breaks, and vice versa, then it starts to make sense. Of course, in that case, I don't care to hear about it - aside from morbid fascination.

I think I'll be following said instructions and disabling Comm Center shortly...

Edit: OOHH! I figured #4 out! They're going to tell us every time ArchiCAD breaks!

Chad Smith

2007-04-17, 09:58 PM

Maybe this will help Chad.I'll give it a go.

I just want to clarify that our issue isn't with Revit grinding to a halt as some are experiencing, but rather with unexpected and random crashes, sometimes with the option to save and sometimes not.

2007-04-18, 09:17 AM

That link didn't bring me to any reference to this issue - did I miss something or maybe the link content changed.

sorry, the description is for Autocad but it works for Revit too - see attached screenshot of Regedit..

As always though, if in doubt, leave the Registry alone.

narlee

2007-04-18, 10:58 AM

Thanks William. Some of us :-) need a little more direction!

bowlingbrad

2007-04-18, 12:20 PM

Remind anyone of the "Today Window"?

Chad Smith

2007-04-18, 10:17 PM

I never understood the problem users had with the AutoCAD "Today Window".

As a CAD Manager, I loved it. I could easily leave content updates on the Bulletin Board :), so the users had daily info. Oh well.

Tobie

2007-04-18, 11:07 PM

I might be missing the point, but will it help to change the setting in communication centre to check for updates "on demand"
The answer will probably be so obvious once I had my second cup of coffee.

ron.sanpedro

2007-04-19, 12:08 AM

I just had it crash again in another file trying to plot to file. I used a the high quality print setting, but greyscale. It may have to do with it being a large sheet to process. Who know's. But definitly unacceptable. Hope they fix these crash problems soon.

Josh

Joshua,
are you watching your task manager as this happens? We had some similar ram intensive crashes in 9.1, and found that it happened when the PF got to a certain size relative to physical ram size. This then led us to follow a rather drawn out process to make sure we could print, or export DWGs, or whatever was causing the crash. We eventually started following this protocol.

1: Everyone out of the project.
2: Audit Central.
3: New local for the task at hand.
4: Full shutdown of the machine, not a Restart.
5: Nothing running but Revit.
6: Cross fingers and proceed.

This worked most of the time.

Gordon

will.86738

2007-04-19, 04:07 AM

Hi folks - my first post so please excuse any non-conforming behaviour ( I don't have a funky image to my name yet - such a commitment to make!)

I've had Revit 2008 running for a couple of days now and I am noticing two things:
1 - Sudden crashes involving the message about how Revit can't continue, and do I want to save or quit

2 - A slow down on the graphics display after a couple of hours of editing. Everything zips along nicely and then, gord knows why, every mouse gesture is followed up with 10 seconds of thinking time by Revit as it redraws the display. Closing and opening gets things back on track.

In relation to point 1, this has noticeably been occurring when in group edit mode doing something quite ordinary like sliding a door into a new location. Choosing not to save is disastrous with worksets - local file becomes invalid.

In relation to point 2, I have open gl switched on, overlay planes off, and an nVidia Quadro FX 1400 card with the latest drivers installed. (Dual xeon workstation with 2GB, XP) I am, on advice from our software vendor, going to switch overlay planes back on and see of the problem persists.

All in all, not entirely happy and will watch this space for more advice and findings.

Cheers,
-Will.

[edit - I committed]

It is also worth mentioning that our Revit support people suggested there might be a link between the crashing and our anti-virus which is CA's eTrust. I have excluded revit files from its monitoring and will see if there is an improvement. Do any of the other sufferers share the same anti-virus software?

david.kingham

2007-04-19, 02:16 PM

ford347

2007-04-19, 03:40 PM

Joshua,
are you watching your task manager as this happens? We had some similar ram intensive crashes in 9.1, and found that it happened when the PF got to a certain size relative to physical ram size. This then led us to follow a rather drawn out process to make sure we could print, or export DWGs, or whatever was causing the crash. We eventually started following this protocol.

1: Everyone out of the project.
2: Audit Central.
3: New local for the task at hand.
4: Full shutdown of the machine, not a Restart.
5: Nothing running but Revit.
6: Cross fingers and proceed.

This worked most of the time.
Thanks Gordon. I'll be sure to pay attention to this next time I plot.

Just posting some more crashes. Since my last, I've had it crash when trying to attach the bases of walls to roofs (bottom layers locked or unlocked, tried both), and just now, just simply editing a title block. I locked a dimension to keep two lines together, then tried to drag one of them. I got the famous save as and exit. At least it seems we are getting a chance to save the work before exiting, so no work is lost.

Josh

ford347

2007-04-19, 04:13 PM

angelo

2007-04-19, 04:37 PM

Turns out, I can't even drag the line I previously mentioned, locked, unlocked or whatever. I even tried to select a group of elements by themselves and drag them and got a crash. So I had to draw ref. lines, select objects, and use the move tool. Basically, just be very cautious.

JoshJosh, is the file you are working in upgraded from a couple releases ago? I updated my 9.1 file and can do just about anything without crashing, so there has to be another variable. Do you get the same crashes when starting in a new file (not a upgraded template)?

Angelo

gwnelson

2007-04-19, 05:41 PM

We have alot of Quadro FX1400, they are terrible cards for Revit and we're switching them all out to ATI FireGL V3400. The best settings we've found for the fx1400 is opengl off and overlay planes off, this should cut down the crashing quite a bit
I have FX1400 on two WS & after new 2008 install & driver update (04.13.2007 - V91.85) I have been running smooth & solid with Open GL & Overlay Planes both ON. Model twirls around with shadows on as smooth as silk.

2007-04-19, 08:32 PM

Have you noticed that in the 91.85 driver Nvidia has the new display control available, and you can add programs to a custom settings list for applications not on the default list (3DS, Cinema 4D, ProE or whatever).
Thus you can make your own 'Revit' custom settings.

I've never had any trouble so far with Revit anyway - so far I've been using 'Cinema 4D' plus forcing off vertical sync. Seems fine for most applications.

BTW when upgrading I always uninstall the old driver before installing the new one - and I also keep the cad workstation very 'clean' - take out all the junk in the 'startup' folder for example, disable 'realtime' AV activity, uninstall anti-spyware and any other intrusive utilities.

Edit: it's also very interesting if you look in the Help Index under '3D settings'..

Hmm, I notice 'enable overlay' is OFF by default - it isn't clear if that is related to the 'Overlay Planes' option as used in Revit.

will.86738

2007-04-19, 09:54 PM

David,
I am amazed to hear your opinion of the quadro fx 1400 cards - I think we paid quit a few bucks for them - they were sold to us as being the bees knees (at least at the lower end of the bees knees range).
I think the cards seem to work quite well, at least in the past they have, but the problem I described with the slowing still exists, and it is unrelated to overlay planes being on or off.
If I was to have a guess, there is a blockage or a pile up of information that can't be cleared and hence the performance of the graphics is compromised.
I will have a go at turning open GL off and, assuming anyone is interested, will post my findings.
-Will.

david.kingham

2007-04-19, 10:02 PM

I hadn't tried 08 with the 1400 yet, so I just opened up one of our bigger models.....wow what a difference, 170mb file with everything turned on and it spins around like it's nothing.

With that we do still have issues with the /3GB switch and the 1400's, some of the computers won't even boot up with the switch on, some work fine....put in an ATI and everything works peachy....

will.86738

2007-04-19, 10:10 PM

David,
what's this 3GB switch business you are referring too? Is it to do with having more than 2 or 4GB of ram? I remember coming across this before but have forgotten.
So are you saying that the 1400 card is going well on your big models?
If you are working on a large model today, perhaps you can keep an eye on revit's ability to redraw the display after a while. The I will know I am not the only one!
This reminds me of working on 486 dx66's with 8 meg of ram trying to squeeze performance out of big drawings in AutoCAD release 10... does anybody else find it somewhat bizarre that with all of the giga-googles of machinery we have now that we are trying to squeeze things together to make revit go in a satifactory manner like it was a black art? Sheesh.

ford347

2007-04-21, 07:48 PM

I title this image.........."DRAWING PYRAMIDS WITH RECOVERY FILES!"

Who needs more modelling tools when we can do it with our recovery files?! I'm told through my support request it's up to me to figure out whether or not my computer can work with the new release, although it is a new computer. I did a lot of research as to what computer to buy with what inside of it to make it run efficiently with revit, and I did that research through AUGI, not anything Adesk provided me with...so the computer is about 4 weeks old now and I don't really know what could be causing all of my crashes. I'm really not sure who to consult to see what I should do as Adesk really doesn't seem to want to address it and I feel like I don't know who to talk to there that will help me with it. Could my crashes really be caused by my graphics card or something similar? I have tried running with openGL off, but everything is extremely slow, I have tried running with OpenGL and Overlays on, but that seems to be slow and jumpy, so I am running with OpenGL only on, that seems to give me the best performance, but frequent crashes. So I'm not sure what is causing all of this. My crashes are literally from attaching walls at their bases, trying to drag elements in elevation. Those two items are literally what has been doing it, aside from a few misc. things. So I'm not sure if it's safe to assume it's a graphics thing or a conflict in the software. Any idea's?

Josh

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 08:15 PM

Could my crashes really be caused by my graphics card or something similar? I have tried running with openGL off, but everything is extremely slow...
Ok, it's slow, but is it still crashing? I would try running with OpenGL off and see if you can get it to crash. It sounds like there are certain things that are causing revit to crash for you, so repeat those actions with OpenGL off and see if it still crashes. If it doesn't crash, then it's probably the graphics card. What card do you have? Are the video drivers up to date?

ford347

2007-04-21, 08:17 PM

I can't remember what card I have. Where do I go to get you all the specifics of my card and after I know what it is and where it is, I can see if it's up to date from there.

Josh

dtownsend

2007-04-21, 08:34 PM

I can't remember what card I have. Where do I go to get you all the specifics of my card and after I know what it is and where it is, I can see if it's up to date from there.

JoshGo to Start > All Programs > Accessories > System Tools > System Information

Expand the Components node in the tree and select Display.

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 08:36 PM

Right click on your desktop and select properties, then select the settings tab. Here you should see what graphics processor you have - see where I've highlighted in the first image. Now click on the advanced button and then the adapter tab - this will give you more info on your graphics card. There may also be a specific tab here for settings for your card. To see your driver version click on the Properties button and then on the Driver tab.

Edit: Or what dtownsend said :)

ford347

2007-04-21, 08:38 PM

Here is what I have. I got this card based off of a recommendation from the hardware area of AUGI.

Josh

ford347

2007-04-21, 08:40 PM

I looked for any current updates for the display driver and it stated there is no better match than what I currently have installed.

Josh

dtownsend

2007-04-21, 08:50 PM

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_91.85.html

That is the most up-to-date driver for your Card.

I have a similar card Nvidia Quadro FX 2500M with 512mb and the driver I have installed is the same as yours and my computer is only a month old, so I'm not sure if that update is needed? Maybe someone else here can fill us in on this...

Also I have been using Revit 2008 for a week now and I haven't had any crashes. Another user that has the same machine as mine but it is about 5 months old had some crashes yesterday on revit 2008, but we didn't have time to troubleshoot what the issue was.

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 08:56 PM

dtownsend

2007-04-21, 09:04 PM

On my work pc, I'm running a PNY Quadro FX 540 with the 8.4.2.6 driver. I have not had a single crash with RAC 2008. It appears not all graphics cards are created equal, so it could just be a problem with your specific card. But it's probably a good idea to upgrade to the newest driver anyway. And, does it still crash with OpenGL off?I don't like screwing with stuff that isn't broke, but I also like having the latest drivers and updates...

I am curious about how you update your graphics card driver...do you go via their web site or try to do it in device manager? In the past I have always used the manufactors web site.

ford347

2007-04-21, 09:06 PM

I tried to do it via the device manager. I'll check out the website and see if there is some newer version availiable....if not, should I not download the same thing and re-install?

Josh

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 09:11 PM

I don't like screwing with stuff that isn't broke, but I also like having the latest drivers and updates...
I agree, but for now I'm going to stick with what's working.

I am curious about how you update your graphics card driver...do you go via their web site or try to do it in device manager? In the past I have always used the manufactors web site.
When I update drivers I always to go the manufacturer website to download the latest driver.

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 09:12 PM

I tried to do it via the device manager. I'll check out the website and see if there is some newer version availiable....if not, should I not download the same thing and re-install?
Use the link dtownsend posted to download the latest nVidia Quadro drvier for Windows XP.

Architeria

2007-04-21, 10:30 PM

Hi, Newbie here so I could well be way off base but could it not be the fact Josh has 128 mb of video RAM compared to the the 256 and 512 that others of you have?

Just a thought . . . . .

Philip

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 10:39 PM

Hi, Newbie here so I could well be way off base but could it not be the fact Josh has 128 mb of video RAM compared to the the 256 and 512 that others of you have?

Just a thought . . . . .

Philip
No - Revit doesn't benefit from large amounts of video RAM.

hand471037

2007-04-21, 10:44 PM

No - Revit doesn't benefit from large amounts of video RAM.

Well that was prior to 2008. 2008 uses a newer OpenGL standard, right, and was cleaned up some to use the 3D hardware more? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of it. So maybe now with 2008 we do need to pay more attention to the video ram...

I've got 256 megs, and have had no problems.

Can someone who knows more about this chime in?

muttlieb

2007-04-21, 10:53 PM

And my nVidia Quadro FX540 - with 128MB - is working better under RAC 2008 than 9.1. Cards compatible with OpenGL 1.3 are recommended, but there is no mention of greater amounts of video RAM required.

dtownsend

2007-04-22, 04:11 AM

What are the advantages of enabeling Open GL in Revit?

I have tried it on and off and I can tell small differences, but I can't tell which one is better.

muttlieb

2007-04-22, 05:41 AM

You'll see the biggest difference in views with shadows turned on. With OpenGL off and shadows turned on, screen regens will take much longer. Also, shadows will probably turn off completely while spinning the model. With OpenGL on, shadows stay on and regens are pretty much instant on a modest size model with my hardware.

iru69

2007-04-22, 06:08 AM

Ford347's driver appears to be rather old, circa late '05 or early '06. I would definitely recommend he download the latest QUADRO driver from the nVidia website and install (it's as easy as double-clicking the downloaded exe file).

Ford should also try overlay planes on and off in combination with opengl on and off.

We have a Quadro FX550 in a Dell at work, and it's running RAC2008 fine so far (though it's only been installed for a few days).

128MB of Video RAM should be plenty. Having gobs of video RAM available is only necessary for games, animation, or anything where there's a lot of texture mapping and high frame rates. Spinning around a shaded Revit model just doesn't tax the card.

BWG

2007-04-23, 12:30 AM

We've had a lot of crashes as well. We thought it was the NVidia FX1500 causing the problem, but I got the same thing happening on my V3100. I found one issue was using the press and drag feature. Every time I grab and object and tried to move it freely with the mouse, Revit crashes. I can grab the same object and use the move command without issue.

Tobie

2007-04-23, 01:24 AM

I had a crash when trying to drag a window with the mouse, but not again. I tried to move elements, but I can't get it to crash now. I have outlook and i-tunes open with Revit.

cjmorrison

2007-04-23, 05:42 AM

I got revit 08 last week. I'm not sure whether to upgrade with all the issues experienced by some users. Is it worth upgrading or should I wait for the next build?

Chad Smith

2007-04-23, 05:52 AM

Of the users that are having issues, how much RAM do you have, and do you have the 3GB switch enabled? I'm particularly interested in hearing from those with 2GB or more.

We only have 1GB which has been fine up until 2008, but Autodesk support keep telling us we need more RAM, which I agree we do need and have coming in about 2 months. But I don't have any more RAM in the meantime to test it out.

will.86738

2007-04-23, 05:57 AM

Chris,
in my opinion it's worth a go - although you ought to be prudent about choosing which project to kick off with '08 and perhaps keep 9.1 installed for anything that would ruin your month if it started acting up.
I am working a lot with multi-unit residential / apartments and am very keen on the Revit's new ability to push groups out as rvt files and back again - it works very well so far and it looks like it will save me heaps of time.
There does seem to be a lot of crashing, but there are probably heaps of people out there not having any trouble who aren't posting the fact in this forum!
Maybe one day someone will have an answer - fingers crossed.
-Will.

will.86738

2007-04-23, 06:17 AM

Of the users that are having issues, how much RAM do you have? I'm particularly interested in hearing from those with 2GB or more.

Chad - 2 gigs on my system.

Tobie

2007-04-23, 06:40 AM

Chad, 2 gig on laptop and 2 gig on desktop. Only the one crash with laptop when moving a window with the mouse.

Chad Smith

2007-04-23, 06:45 AM

Forgot to add to my previous post, do you have the 3GB switch activated?

Tobie

2007-04-23, 06:49 AM

Are you talking about virtual memory or is there switch located in Revit?

truevis

2007-04-23, 11:43 AM

...We only have 1GB which has been fine up until 2008, but Autodesk support keep telling us we need more RAM, which I agree we do need and have coming in about 2 months. But I don't have any more RAM in the meantime to test it out.
2 months? What, did you special-order a container of embroidered RAM from Taiwan? I've heard of slow RAM, but really...http://forums.augi.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PS: Anyone gotten an approved list of video cards from Autodesk yet?

Chad Smith

2007-04-23, 12:05 PM

2 months? What, did you special-order a container of embroidered RAM from Taiwan? I've heard of slow RAM, but really...http://forums.augi.com/images/icons/icon12.gif:lol:

That's our company wide upgrade date. Although, I'm trying to get a hold of something a little sooner to test it out.

dtownsend

2007-04-23, 02:16 PM

Anyone having or heard of the problem of Revit 2008 closing when you try to bring an image in?

bowlingbrad

2007-04-23, 02:55 PM

So what are we all saying here? Is RAC2008 unstable with less than 2G RAM? Has there been any responses from autodesk? Now I'm wondering if I need to wait before upgrading. This really makes me uncomfortable....

Wes Macaulay

2007-04-23, 03:07 PM

Well, we were stable for the first while, but we're sending in a few CER's per day now on our projects, and on 9.1 I might have crashed Revit perhaps half a dozen times total! Between this and the change to category invisible behaviour, we're a wee bit disappointed with life these days.

angelo

2007-04-23, 03:23 PM

Josh,

You are a little behind on your Nvidia driver - see image attached. I've been using the FX550 for over a week now with no crashes whatsoever.

We've found that if you have the newest graphics driver installed and are still getting a lot of crashes, it might be system instability. Over and over again, our Dell's have had better system wide stability than the hand-built computers in our studio. Like them or not, I think Dell does a fair amount of testing with their setups, so if you order the graphics card with the box (Precision Workstations), we see stable systems even with huge numbers of applications installed.

In addition, we've had a lot of problems with the hand-built machines crashing on save to central (Revit 9.1). When the RAM gets close to being maxed out (1.6 or higher GB), the network card or physical RAM performance locks up the box.

Un-install your graphics driver, and install the latest after the reboot. Don't let the auto install hardware wizard do it--cancel it, log in, then install the driver you downloaded off Nvidia's web site.

Angelo

Matt Brennan

2007-04-23, 04:30 PM

Forgot to add to my previous post, do you have the 3GB switch activated?

We are now starting to have some problems with the ram too. I currently have 4 gigs of ram but others in the office are running off 2 gigs. I am not having problems with Revit 2008 but the others in the office are. The problems we are seeing is having something to do with the ram and virtual memory.

Our main projects is over 200 gigs in size. When optimized, it usually goes back down to 130 gigs. What is everyone working with right now in terms of project size? I am guessing the file size has an issue towards this but what is everyones thought on this?

With the other machines, we are going to through another 2 gigs into the machines and see what happens at that point. We never had this issue with 9.1. Do you think Revit is leaking memory?

Any help would be appreciated,

radu.grosu

2007-04-23, 07:15 PM

Help File:

4. This one takes the cake. "Breaking News" from the support team? I can see it now... "This just in, Program crashes and instability as a result of communication center activity." We will contact you via your communication center when we have more information...CRASH.... I mean really, how often does the support team release "breaking news." Is this a bad play on words or what? Breaking news about your program being broken... Good lord! I think the only time I've ever heard form the support team is when I've contacted them with a problem. I don't think they've ever contacted me. I'm not sure I want them to either. Not to mention the fact that "breaking news" is usually for people who aren't involved in a situation. People on a sinking ship don't watch the TV to find out about why the ship is sinking, and who might be on it. They kind of already know. Now, if the support team is going to use this to tell Revit users about every time Architectural Desktop breaks, and vice versa, then it starts to make sense. Of course, in that case, I don't care to hear about it - aside from morbid fascination.

I think I'll be following said instructions and disabling Comm Center shortly...

Edit: OOHH! I figured #4 out! They're going to tell us every time ArchiCAD breaks!

Good one. Superb.

ford347

2007-04-23, 08:31 PM

Josh,

You are a little behind on your Nvidia driver - see image attached. I've been using the FX550 for over a week now with no crashes whatsoever.

Thanks for this! I'll download the new driver and see how it goes. Hopefully things get better. I'm getting a crash several times a day. On the bright side, my recovery pyrimid is getting bigger!

Josh

sbrown

2007-04-23, 09:11 PM

ford347

2007-04-23, 09:31 PM

Ford, your crash description is without a doubt graphics related. Have you tried disabling hardware acceleration? I have yet to beable to have it turned on without getting the type of crashes you are describing. \

Yes, I have tried it without hardware acceleration, but it is extremely slow in elevations, especially with shadows, it regenerates every move I make, taking 3-5 seconds a pop. So I opted to run with it on and apparently deal with the crashes. I'm hoping updating my graphics driver will help and take care of the problem. If not, maybe I could replace the card with one someone may suggest here they are running with their dell workstation.

Josh

dbaldacchino

2007-04-23, 09:33 PM

The behavior described (that crashes occur sporadically, sometimes when you're just moving your mouse around) sounds like it's display related. I started experiencing this with my current setup (a D820 with an Nvidia NVS120M with OpenGL on) since I started using RB9.1. After finally giving up and disabling OpenGL, it stabilized. It seemed to do this mainly when docked and in dual screen mode. Now lots have said they're having these issues with no OpenGL on. That is very scary, but the behavior is similar to what I was experiencing. When beta testing, I did have a few crashes with OG on but did not work for long periods without it enabled, so I cannot tell if I'll have these crashes with OG off. I'll find out next week probably.

BWG

2007-04-24, 01:34 PM

2GB, no switch enabled. Building my tree just like Mr. Ford.

As for system instability, that would mean that all programs would be having issues, but none are, just revit. We have upgraded to the newest drivers, to no avail.

sbrown

2007-04-24, 01:56 PM

I've always had my issues with hardware accelleration on, Not open gl. You can't have one without the other, but I still will get crashes if I leave hdwr accel. on and open gl off. You can experiment by dropping hardware accelleration a notch or two and see if you get less crashes.

GS Fulton

2007-04-24, 02:10 PM

I'm going to throw in my $.02 with issues I'm having. As always, I tried one trial project with the new version and had few issues. Worked great and loved most of the new stuff. Being satisfied that it was ok, I jumped to a bigger project. Worked great for several days and then started crashing. Just Revit, system is relatively stable otherwise. The system is a 3gig Athlon 64 with 2GB memory (HP) and has worked well for a long time. Now it crashes anytime I think about printing. I've reinstalled Revit and reinstalled video drivers but no change. I've lost about a day and a half of work since I can't plot anything. I suppose we'll have to back up to 9.1 and just wait a while.

George F

sbrown

2007-04-24, 06:18 PM

Have you turned off Hardware accelleration? I'm just trying to find out if this is truely just graphics or a worse issue.

GS Fulton

2007-04-24, 07:19 PM

I usually try to turn it down until it straightens things out. I did get it to plot after taking hardware acceleration down a notch. I suppose I'll stay with that setting for a while and see what happens. Thanks.

ford347

2007-04-25, 03:51 PM

I just updated my QuadroFX550 driver. Opened Revit, turned open gl on, overlay planes off, like I had attempted to do prior my update. I did this because as far as performance went, it was great. No regen when I had shadows on etc. But with the new update, open gl, overlay planes runs incredibly slow, slower than it did before. I sat here for over 1min. waiting for my 3d display with shadows to regenerate??

When you guys talk about turning hardware acceleration down a notch, are you talking about doing this from the driver control panel. I see some options in the nvidia control panel to control the performace of hardware acceleration with 3d programs. You can either slide a quality/performace bar further to quality or over to performance and adjust it that way, or it allows you to add a program to a list and override a series of settings I don't know much about to adjust performance that way. You can also leave a box checked to let the program decide, which obviously isn't the best choice, since it isn't working well.

What should I do.....adjust the settings in the driver control panel??

I haven't got to see yet if this has helped the crashing part yet as I just updated the drivers, so we'll see.

Josh

muttlieb

2007-04-25, 04:10 PM

ford347

2007-04-25, 04:13 PM

Yes, opened an closed about 7 times now trying diff. things.....all very slow. I'm in the middle of overriding settings for Revit within the driver control panel right now to see if that does anything, although I don't dare to change much because I don't know what half of them mean?? Kind of depressing though. Now even my floor plans move jumpy. When I pan, there is absolutly nothing on the screen until I let off the button. Very jumpy.

Josh

ford347

2007-04-25, 04:19 PM

So for now I'm leaving opengl off and overlay planes on. That seems to give me a normal working environment without shadows and fewer crashes, although I did experience one more crash without hwaccel. on yesterday from trying to drag a wall again....but definitly fewer than with it on. So unless someone here can suggest how I might adjust the setttings from the driver control panel, I think I'm forced to stick with that.

Too bad to, because although I was getting crashes before I updated the driver, with opengl on, moving around with shadows was incredible. No regen at all, shadows would stay on when you panned etc. I like this because it is really easy to conceptualize your model with the shadows, the colors and everything are just better and easier to look at, and when you do this for 12-14 hours a day, those little things can make a big difference...but enough crying. Hope someone with a little more know-how can tackle this one.

Could getting a better graphics card be the answer with this new release of Revit??

Josh

whittendesigns

2007-04-25, 10:55 PM

So far I have been just lurking. I've been watching with a little interest in the way 2008 has been talked about since it has become available and I gotta say, I am some glad I am waiting for all the bugs to get worked out. It seems like everyone has had problems, but maybe it's just me. I'll stick with 9.1 for awhile longer methinks.

dbaldacchino

2007-04-26, 12:53 AM

Josh, the key question that no one can/will answer, including the factory, is.....what is a "better graphics card for Revit"? It seems like a hit & miss business; if you're lucky you'll buy a cheap card and somehow land on the perfect driver (and no one seems to know which one that would be) and you're in business. The guy/gal next to you might have the same thing and a different computer or driver and he/she is crashing like Nascar. It's unacceptable that the user is left up to his/her own devices to sort this stuff out with little direction from the big A. We sort of know what works/doesn't work with Autocad, but it's been getting worse with Revit since 9.1 and it seems this new version is kicking it up a notch. I don't recall a thread like this after previous major releases. I was kinda expecting some more widespread display issues, but not this much crashing. It's a bit disheartening.

muttlieb

2007-04-26, 01:22 AM

I was kinda expecting some more widespread display issues, but not this much crashing. It's a bit disheartening.
And I was expecting a lot *less* display issues, at least for people with cards compatible with OpenGL 1.3. As I've said before, both my PNY Quadro FX540 and Asus GeForce 6600 cards are performing better with RAC 2008 - and the beta - than they did with 9.1 and prior. It is unfortunate so many people are experiencing display problems and crashes, especially since one of the focuses of this release was 'performance' improvements.

rjcrowther

2007-04-26, 06:50 AM

I have been watching with interest from the beginning as well. Still on 9.1 - this thread has frightened me off 2008 for a while.

So far I understand it to be like this.

The communications centre is dubious and is likely to be causing instability.
Hardware acceleration may be an issue.
Video graphics RAM should not have an effect but possibly does. If you have 256MB then you are more likely to be ok.
RAM can be a factor but having 4MB does not guarantee anything. Having 4MB rather than 1MB is a help but not significantly.

Just to add to the mix. It is possible that one of those hidden processes that show up in the Windows Task Manager creates a conflict with Revit? Could this be why some are affected and others aren't?

dhurtubise

2007-04-26, 10:28 AM

Well the more the software evolve the more energy consuming it is. Which i think makes sense. So you need mroe RAM faster proc. i think it's just obvisous.
But video card mmmm.... The main isssue has to be with Open GL. If Revit was a Direct X product like Max you wouldn't have those discussion. But unfortunately it is an Open GL one. So let's just hope that Autodesk is working to get it to Direct X. if not then get Nidia chipset and get away from ATI.

clog boy

2007-04-26, 11:01 AM

How many of you use the Novell client?

rjcrowther

2007-04-26, 01:26 PM

clog boy

2007-04-26, 01:36 PM

I read somewhere in a Linux forum that OpenGL is Open Source (as opposed to Microsoft's DirectX). ATI does and will not provide support to the Open Source community, while Nvidia does. So it's only logic that OpenGL applications run smoother on Nvidia cards, while it shouldn't be a problem at all.
I think there's a reason you can turn openGL hardware support on and off. My setup is a Intel Pentium D 3.40 Ghz with 3 GB RAM of an unknown speed (I think 6400 cas5-5-5). My graphics card is Nvidia 7300LE (would love to try my personal 7600GT card with it tho).

Currently running 9.1 w/ Network license.

2007-04-26, 02:33 PM

I've just finished my 3 day Revit training and I specifically asked the trainer about stability issues, in particular graphics and graphic cards.

Like me, so far, the trainer has not had any problems with crashing or display issues at all in 9.1 or so far with 2008 (this isn't a reseller employee btw, just a contract trainer who trains ADT, Revit, Acad, Rhino, 3DS, etc.. although he was very enthusiastic about Revit ;) )

The only thing he said would often cause problems was a rendering without setting a camera. that aside he had no issues.

On debating this further - as a number of people who post here obviously do have problems - it emerged that, like me, he is very choosy about what he lets install on his main cad machines/laptops.
In particular he said that he avoided using Internet Explorer for general web surfing and kept plug-ins to a minimum as it is used in the Help system.

No idea if that's any help but thought I'd mention it as it's a bit of a different angle.

Wes Macaulay

2007-04-26, 03:02 PM

The communications centre is dubious and is likely to be causing instability.
Hardware acceleration may be an issue.
Video graphics RAM should not have an effect but possibly does. If you have 256MB then you are more likely to be ok.
RAM can be a factor but having 4MB does not guarantee anything. Having 4MB rather than 1MB is a help but not significantly.
Just to add to the mix. It is possible that one of those hidden processes that show up in the Windows Task Manager creates a conflict with Revit? Could this be why some are affected and others aren't?

Perhaps -- jury's still out on this one, and if there is a problem, the Factory is likely to fix it
RAC 2008 uses OpenGL spec 1.3. This is an old spec -- it dates back to 2001 -- and most cards should be compatible with this spec. I do not agree with Daniel H's assertion that you should stay away from ATI because they are the only vendor that I know of that has certified their video cards with Revit (the FireGL series).
Video RAM is of little consequence -- 32 Mb is enough for Revit based on a past post from one of the Revit developers here on AUGI.
From another post I read somewhere one of the developers stated that Revit tries to stay under 2 Gb of RAM usage -- this makes sense, since no more than 2Gb of RAM is given to applications by default in Windows. Remember that if you have 4Gb of RAM, Windows 32-bit can only access 4Gb total -- and of that "address space" some of it is needed by Windows to access video memory, and other hardware in your computer. So really, there's no point in putting 4Gb of RAM into your computer. That's why Macs ship with no more than 3Gb of RAM. If you use the 3Gb bootswitch, it forces Windows to use no more than 1Gb of RAM, leaving 3Gb for the applications. This often doesn't work, especially if you have a video card with huge amounts of video RAM; then you have to use the USERVA switch to reduce the RAM given to apps to a value less than 3Gb. So how much RAM do you need? 1Gb is a minimum -- 2Gb is a good place to be for mid-size projects; 3Gb if your files get above 100Mb.
The only apps I've seen that make things goofy are ones that also use OpenGL -- Google Earth immediately comes to mind. With Revit running, starting Google Earth sometimes turns my screen to colorful static ;-)

hand471037

2007-04-26, 04:30 PM

I read somewhere in a Linux forum that OpenGL is Open Source (as opposed to Microsoft's DirectX). ATI does and will not provide support to the Open Source community, while Nvidia does. So it's only logic that OpenGL applications run smoother on Nvidia cards, while it shouldn't be a problem at all.

That's not quite right. ATI doesn't release specs for drivers to the Linux community. That is what you probably read about them 'not supporting the open source community'. ATI does fully support OpenGL, which while it is an open specification, I beleve was developed by SGI and is widely used in many commercial applications. Think of it more like PDF or something than a fully open source system, ala Linux.

hand471037

2007-04-26, 04:41 PM

From another post I read somewhere one of the developers stated that Revit tries to stay under 2 Gb of RAM usage -- this makes sense, since no more than 2Gb of RAM is given to applications by default in Windows.

I'm running 2008 under Parallels, which means I can turn up and down the amount of ram Windows can access with a slider. I have it set to 1.2 gigs right now, and I've turned it down to under a gig, and Revit is still working fine here. No crashing, nice and stable and fast.

However, our current project is small. Tiny even. It's got lots of complex models and really complex in-place families, but it's just a single office interior with lots of very custom elements. So maybe this has a lot more to do with project size than it does with available Ram. If I can find the time later this week I'll try to dig out an old big project and run it through some tests and see if I can make 2008 crash (it hasn't yet on me).

Also I've noticed in the past that Revit 9.1 was more stable under Parallels than under normal Windows XP, especially when doing complex sketching. I haven't tried running 2008 under normal Windows XP yet, for I haven't had too...

Brian Myers

2007-04-26, 05:38 PM

If I can find the time later this week I'll try to dig out an old big project and run it through some tests and see if I can make 2008 crash (it hasn't yet on me).

I can make Revit crash using the model you may have seen of Calatrava - Turning Torso and 2GB of RAM. Just doing some manipulating and rendering I can usually figure out a way to kill it after a few minutes. Of course, I believe I'm as much maxing out my processor with it as anything, but yes, I can make it do an actual crash.

zanzibarbob7

2007-04-27, 05:09 AM

I relayed the instability issue to product support indicating that I had Open GL on and overlay planes off. They suggested that overlay planes be turned on to prevent crashing. Will report results.

zanzibarbob7

2007-04-27, 03:22 PM

After making the change to checking "overlay planes" I have worked about three hours with no crashes. Before that, I was crashing several times during the same interval. So far so good.

I have Windows XP Pro, Athlon fx 53, Quadro fx 2000 and 4 GB RAM. Hope this helps.

iru69

2007-04-27, 04:35 PM

Just wanted to add our most recent issues...

We have two identical Dells, except for the graphics cards.

The one with the nVidia Quadro FX550 (that I mentioned a number of posts back as working "fine") is crashing when objects are selected and dragged.

The one with the ATI FireGL V3400 (my workstation) has not had any crashes so far (knock on wood).

I'll obviously take a look at the drivers and such, but everything was very stable under 9.1

Our other Dells with different Quadro cards have also been working fine so far.

EDIT: I might have been a tad premature in my post - I just checked the settings, and we had overlay planes OFF under 9.1 and overlay planes were ON under 2008, so I'm hoping that's the problem. We've turned them off and will continue to monitor the situation.

..shaner

2007-04-27, 05:00 PM

we have had nothing but success with Revit Arch 2008 and Revit Structural 2008. We have found them to be EXTREMELY stable. There have been a few little glitchs with callouts no showing up but besides that things seem wonderful

and im loving the "hide element in view" and "graphic overides for element" ** halftone for elevations ** ya bitches!!!!!

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-03, 11:30 PM

I do have to report that on our projects we are definitely having stability problems -- we're creating CERs from each user several times a day:

dragging a door family down a wall causes a crash
various editing operations in families causes a crash -- merely editing the example text in the callout head family for example
I've never seen a version of Revit that is so unstable -- in my experience, and this is on my office's projects; your experience may be quite different. This is the 20070404 build. Keep in mind that both of these projects date back to 8.1 and have been upgraded to 9, 9.1 and now 2008; perhaps if they were started fresh in 2008 we would have no issues.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-04, 12:20 AM

Well as it turns out, it's all about overlay planes. Enabling overlay planes has caused Revit to not crash when performing the same tasks that were causing it to crash earlier! Perhaps a sticky about this is in order...

Chad Smith

2007-05-04, 12:29 AM

Overlay Planes don't work for us. As of 2008, with Overlay Planes turned on, we get stretched displays, refer attached image.
This is by far the most unstable release I have used.

I also want to add that the suggestion from Support to increase our RAM from 1GB to 2GB has done nothing to improve it.

iru69

2007-05-04, 12:58 AM

Turning overlay planes on the Dell nVidia FX550 seems to increase instability. The card's been having problems with 2008 where it never had problems with 9.1. Turning OpenGL off seems to have solved the problem of random crashes. I have yet to upgrade the graphics drivers, so maybe that will help.

I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the project being upgraded from 9.1

I was hoping they were going to improve the graphics card situation with 2008, but it seems to have gotten worse.

EDIT: I'm also using 2008 on a computer at home running Vista (and I should add that I never had a problem of crashing under 9.1). It's worked pretty well so far, but it's been occasionally freezing when opening files and stuff. The only way I can get Revit to work again is to restart the computer. I only bring this up because 2008 is easily my favorite release, feature-wise, since I started using Revit 6.1, but unfortunately 2008 is also easily the most unstable Revit release I've used.

Since it's been extremely stable on my Dell workstation at work (ATI V3100), I'm kind of confused. Is it just the project/family (upgraded from 9.1)? Is it the hardware (you can't get a more "typical" workstation than a Dell Precision)? I'm beginning to feel very uneasy about all this. When you have months of work tied up in a file, there's a lot riding on it.

I'm not looking for answers here, I just wanted to share my concern.

Chad Smith

2007-05-14, 03:52 AM

Nice. We've recently started experiencing the slow down issue some are having. Upgrading the graphic driver has no effect.
Does anyone have anything new to report on this slow down issue? Were you able to solve it? I'm kind of regretting the upgrade to 2008 about now.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-14, 04:19 AM

Autodesk needs to start twisting some arms here... the driver situation has to be addressed. Not at the Factory, but at ATI and nVidia.

will.86738

2007-05-14, 04:27 AM

Where's the petition - I'm ready to sign!

I have decided that the occasional crash is better than having to make a coffee everytime my display regenerates with opengl acceleration switched off. This doesn't mean I feel satisfied with a program that costs $$$ and behaves like spare change.
-W.

ford347

2007-05-14, 01:01 PM

I finally ended up just running with OpenGL off, since this is what seemed to be causing all of the really random crashes...(even after driver upgrades and re-install), and overlay planes on. I have the Nvidia Fx550 and it seems this is the only configuration I can run in. So it's back to waiting for regen when shadows are on, but in my case, I have four files going in the same project and the crashes were driving me crazy, although I wish I had the speed back.

As far as Autodesk doing something, absolutly. Whether or not it should be the drivers companies, Autodesk should definitly be very open and communicative with their users about the issues. I have got back some pretty lame responses latetly on my support requests after providing oodles of information, and I get responses like, it's up to you, or Revit isn't tested that way, or whatever. That is definitly what I don't like hearing after dumping all my eggs in one basket with this software. So I vote they address it.

Josh

bowlingbrad

2007-05-14, 01:10 PM

what Josh just said...

bowlingbrad

2007-05-14, 01:11 PM

We are diving into RA2008 today with 3 users. We NEED to use the new roof tool. I am setting OpenGL and overlay to ON. We will see what happens...

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-14, 04:05 PM

This doesn't mean I feel satisfied with a program that costs $$$ and behaves like spare change.
-W.Read up on OpenGL (kinda boring, but there's a reason...) and you'll find it's a set of commands that a programmer implements in their software. OpenGL is an open standard; make the right calls, use the right commands, and you should be OK. Except that there's a thousand different card models out there, and that's a huge loose end that the card mfr's end up having to address. And with Revit, nVidia hasn't. ATI at least for their desktop cards shows an entry for Revit, but are they testing it with 2008?

As for nVidia, Revit is totally off the radar for them. My calls and e-mails are going unanswered. Autodesk has to slap them around a little because one guy isn't going to get heard.

Your petition to Autodesk should state: "Please get the video card manfacturers to test their hardware and drivers with Revit 2008."

Chad Smith

2007-05-14, 10:26 PM

If it's a graphics card / OpenGL issue then maybe Autodesk needs to dump the current changes they have made, because they don't seem to be working properly, and revert back to what they had running in 9.1.

I'm so close to swapping back to 9.1 with all new projects. 2008 is a waste of time.

Chad Smith

2007-05-14, 10:58 PM

We have recently purchased a further 2 new licenses.

Does anyone know if even though we have purchased 2008, if we we can install and register 9.1? I wouldn't have thought this would be a problem.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-14, 11:15 PM

...and since Dell often gets their own cards/drivers for their desktop models, you're at their mercy for compatibility. Ugh. What a mess... at least with an aftermarket ATI card you've got a chance that drivers are going to be compatible and be updated as time goes on.

iru69

2007-05-14, 11:34 PM

...and since Dell often gets their own cards/drivers for their desktop models, you're at their mercy for compatibility.
No more so than any other nvidia card. While almost all nvidia suppliers issue their "own" driver for desktop cards, this is almost always a repackaged version of the standard nvidia driver. I've never had a problem installing a nvidia driver (directly from the nvidia website) on a Dell.

Discreet graphic chipsets in laptops are sometimes a different story because of their "integration" into the motherboard.

Interestingly, Dell doesn't appear to even be offering the ATI FireGL cards with Vista... you have to get XP if you want an ATI FireGL card. Not sure if it's just currently a driver issue (ATI's been a little slow in that dept. from what I understand) or if they're planning on phasing them out.

Tobie

2007-05-14, 11:39 PM

Are these crashes on XP, Vista or both?

iru69

2007-05-15, 12:02 AM

Are these crashes on XP, Vista or both?
I use both with Revit, and there have been general issues of instability in both.

bowlingbrad

2007-05-15, 10:59 AM

Even if Autodesk doesn't want to fix this issue, they should AT LEAST give us a list of video cards that keep Revit stable.

Chad Smith

2007-05-16, 04:11 AM

Looks like OpenGL is the culprit, as turning OpenGL off seems to make it stable for us.

Not fixing this issue is definitely NOT an option. We can't be expected to buy a new video card every year just because Autodesk choose to stuff around with it. They need to go visit the VIZ/MAX team. They seem to have it nailed.

dhurtubise

2007-05-16, 04:41 AM

Hopefully the Revit team is working on a DirectX display. Vista dropped Open GL, but it's probaly a LOT of work to rewrite a display engine to a new language.

iru69

2007-05-16, 05:34 AM

Vista dropped Open GL...
This is not correct. Vista has the same support for OpenGL hardware acceleration as XP.

Chad Smith

2007-05-16, 06:13 AM

Just had a call from support confirming that the OpenGL had been updated in 2008, but I forgot to ask to which version. Just sent off a request to Autodesk for this info.

From what I can tell, my video card supports OpenGL up to version 2.0. I would have thought this would be plenty sufficient.

The attitude from Autodesk is very much, stiff sh*t, and was told that our cards are now out of date. These cards were purchased less than a year ago, and we don't have another scheduled hardware upgrade for another 2 years. This is a bloody shambles.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-16, 06:33 AM

Revit 2008 uses command calls from the OpenGL 1.3 standard. Theoretically, almost any card on a machine built since 2001 should work. But this doesn't seem to be the case.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-16, 06:37 AM

This is not correct. Vista has the same support for OpenGL hardware acceleration as XP.Irusun's right... MS originally planned to add OpenGL through DirectX (which would have been dreadful), but later added direct OpenGL support after the CAD development community blew a gasket. If MS had not done this, it would have been a death knell for Vista and would have had the CAD vendors in a tizzy. I don't know of any major CAD apps that use DirectX for their graphics and with the insanity from MS who can blame them?

Andrew Dobson

2007-05-16, 07:53 AM

Irusun's right... MS originally planned to add OpenGL through DirectX (which would have been dreadful), but later added direct OpenGL support after the CAD development community blew a gasket. If MS had not done this, it would have been a death knell for Vista and would have had the CAD vendors in a tizzy. I don't know of any major CAD apps that use DirectX for their graphics and with the insanity from MS who can blame them?

I believe that the latest version of Mirostation XM uses Direct X instead of Open GL is is said to be much quicker.

2007-05-16, 08:04 AM

Here's a concise and almost comprehensible explanation of OpenGL under Vista:
http://www.evanyares.com/the-cad-industry/2007/4/30/is-opengl-handicapped-under-vista.html

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-16, 04:09 PM

I believe that the latest version of Mirostation XM uses Direct X instead of Open GL is is said to be much quicker.That's true -- and then Bentley calls Revit "old technology" for using OpenGL, haha. But 3D performance isn't the main handicap for most Revit users, video card compatibility issues aside.

hand471037

2007-05-16, 04:59 PM

DirectX isn't necessarily better or faster than OpenGL. Many other Autodesk product use OpenGL just fine, and are way fast. Look at Inventor and Max, after all, it can make full use of those $1000 display cards. If Revit is having issues with OpenGL, then it's Autodesk's fault 100%. Switching to DirectX wouldn't solve anything if the problem is poor implementation on Autodesk's part in regards to Revit.

DirectX is heavily developed, it's true, but mostly for the gaming market which has very different needs than us CAD folks. The only mainstream CAD program I know that's DirectX only is Alibre Design (and now the Bently product mentioned upthread, I don't keep up with the Bently stuff). So assuming that DirectX is 'better' or 'more modern' is just marketing hoo-ha.

A prime example of this is Blender. It's all OpenGL. It can be significantly faster in some situations than 3D Studio Max running on DirectX on the very same hardware and graphics card in my personal direct experience.

Also DirectX is kind of a mess. Read up on support for DX10 in Vista and you'll see what I mean. I can understand that a lot of vendors would want to stay away from it until the dust settles out from the disruptions Vista caused. Also from what I hear writing good drivers for Vista and DX10 is significantly harder than it was for past versions of Windows and DirectX.

So while I think it would be great for Revit to be better supported in the 3D acceleration area, I don't think that swapping to DirectX is necessarily gonna fix anything.

Chad Smith

2007-05-16, 09:41 PM

Just had a call from support confirming that the OpenGL had been updated in 2008, but I forgot to ask to which version. Just sent off a request to Autodesk for this info.Support wouldn't confirm what version 2008 uses, nor tell me what cards are compatible. Yeah, great support Autodesk. Thanks for nothing.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-16, 10:05 PM

You could have confirmed this on the 2008 beta forum, but they deleted the whole thing :shock:

I remember specifically that it was 1.3 that we were upgrading to...

iru69

2007-05-16, 10:42 PM

I remember specifically that it was 1.3 that we were upgrading to...
The 1.3 specification was released in 2001. You're telling me they did a major graphic system upgrade to a specification that is already six years old?

Are you sure they didn't upgrade to 1.5 which was released in 2003? Wouldn't that have made more sense?

eldad

2007-05-17, 06:53 AM

I have to say that this release of Revit is the most unstable to date, never had so many crashes like I do now...

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 07:54 AM

The 1.3 specification was released in 2001. You're telling me they did a major graphic system upgrade to a specification that is already six years old?

Are you sure they didn't upgrade to 1.5 which was released in 2003? Wouldn't that have made more sense?I was surprised too -- I don't know if it really makes that much of a difference to performance anyway; it's not like Revit needs fog or whatever neat new features might have been added since 1.3...

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 07:55 AM

Support wouldn't confirm what version 2008 uses, nor tell me what cards are compatible. Yeah, great support Autodesk. Thanks for nothing.They wouldn't tell you because it's on the specifications page for Revit 2008 :p

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=8479263

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 07:56 AM

I have to say that this release of Revit is the most unstable to date, never had so many crashes like I do now...Have you got overlay planes turned on? That was our problem... we had them turned off.

iru69

2007-05-17, 02:28 PM

I was surprised too -- I don't know if it really makes that much of a difference to performance anyway; it's not like Revit needs fog or whatever neat new features might have been added since 1.3...
Oooh, fog! That would be cool! ;)

Well, maybe they should go back to what they had then, because instead of improving things, what was already a mess has become an even bigger mess. While I've seen graphic glitches in the past due to OpenGL, I've never had multiple computers crashing every other day. How much of that is OpenGL, and how much of it is simply buggy software is anyone's guess.

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 02:58 PM

Oooh, fog! That would be cool! ;)

Well, maybe they should go back to what they had then, because instead of improving things, what was already a mess has become an even bigger mess. While I've seen graphic glitches in the past due to OpenGL, I've never had multiple computers crashing every other day. How much of that is OpenGL, and how much of it is simply buggy software is anyone's guess.Oh ya -- that would make us west coasters feel more at home in the software :lol:

Since enabling overlay planes, we haven't had one crash since on all our projects. And everyone in our office is raving about the display performance improvements with 2008. The only thing we've had to change is to make all text/dim styles have an opaque background since with overlay planes transparent text looks "chunkier".

dbaldacchino

2007-05-17, 03:12 PM

And I ask myself, why on earth did they delete the beta forum but left the forum from a year and a half ago?! I mean, I didn't keep emails about the forum postings because there were too many. To me, that was my peronal time investment and the knowledgebase created in that forum would have been valuable to pinpoint some know issues once we start using this release! What would prompt Autodesk to dump all that info? Is it the nature of some of the threads in there? And if so, why not just remove those particular threads? I understand they have the right and power to do whatever they want, but once again.....the content of those threads was the collective effort of all the beta testers and I believe that the information generated from those posts is of extremely high value to all the contributors. I'm kinda baffled on this one.

Yes, the implementation of OpenGL was supposed to now be compatible with 1.3. For me, it has been getting progressively worse since 9.1, to the point where I stopped using OpenGL. 2008 doesn't seem better and crashed on me with OpenL during testing. I wasn't the only one that predicted that crashing issues were going to be more widespread for this release; because of this I wouldn't classify the "improvements" to OpenGL as improvements at all! Especially when they won't say WHICH darn cards work. What am I supposed to do? Test every card out there? Seems we're just being asked to disable this "improvement" if it doesn't work, and numbers are getting progressively worse. I have no clue which group of users they're trying to help in this case. It is essential to have some card names on the table, or system configurations. Otherwise, we're just wasting our time and I really hate being negative as I know the developers are a great team of people. But was is a user to do in a situation like this?! Enuff said.
To all that are experiencing OpenGL related crashes.....check your card settings and if you have an option called soemthing like "Extension Limit", try checking it and see if it makes things better. This is used to alleviate issues with long strings or something like that, that some "older" applications cannot handle. This is over my head as I don't know anything about the specific coding of OpenGL (and dare I say....seems like the big A doesn't know much either!). Hope this helps....it didn't in my case. At one point with an older card driver, I had better OpenGL success than with a new one, so you might try digging for an older driver.

VinceFerrero

2007-05-17, 07:52 PM

Now that you mention that David it does seem strange, why did they delete it all? It's difficult to comprehend. Perhaps they wished to quash the insurrection....:lol:

I've started getting a very annoying problem on one of my projects where it keeps telling me that there is a problem with one of the windows and it 'needs' to close it. I reopen the window do a small zoom or pan and it 'needs' to close it, again.

bowlingbrad

2007-05-17, 08:28 PM

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 08:36 PM

...because there was enough rudeness in enough posts to warrant blowing the whole thing away. At least that's my guess!

Wes Macaulay

2007-05-17, 09:44 PM

If Revit is having issues with OpenGL, then it's Autodesk's fault 100%.But isn't OpenGL just a specification? So if the Factory uses the specification by the book -- and they claim they do -- then it's up to card vendors to test their drivers / cards to ensure compatibility. Like ATI has done...

Chad Smith

2007-05-17, 10:28 PM

And I ask myself, why on earth did they delete the beta forum ...I think this is the same reason why we don't have a Revit Future's forum. I don't think they care too much about where WE the users, would like to see Revit heading.

I've never been part of a community that is so passionate about a product as this, and I've certainly never felt so strongly or been so involved in a product before, and I don't think the developers can handle it. But, if they won't give us a Futures or leave existing Beta forums open which are under an NDA, then they have to expect topics like this negating Revit in the public arena.

rjcrowther

2007-05-18, 12:08 AM

I installed the new version of Revit on my 3 year old machine yesterday and the sky hasn't fallen in.........yet.

I am now trying to get a computer person to talk to me concerning making up a computer as recommended in the hardware forum. Has anyone put such a system to the test and found it to have problems? Am I to take it that if there is problems with such a computer it is EXTREMELY likely to still work by fiddling the open gl options? I am hoping to completely avoid the call to Autodesk and the resulting 'fix' of buy more hardware.

I think a futures forum is a good idea - if not from users to Autodesk then at least Autodesk to users.

Beta testing - sounds a bit grubby to me. If, by removing the forum, you have lost your gain of being involved in beta testing then it might be worthwhile not participating in the future.

Thanks,
Rob

iru69

2007-05-18, 01:08 AM

But isn't OpenGL just a specification? So if the Factory uses the specification by the book -- and they claim they do -- then it's up to card vendors to test their drivers / cards to ensure compatibility. Like ATI has done...
Autodesk can stay on it's high horse of "by the book" all it wants, but that's not going to fix a hundred million graphic cards. And we don't know what ATI has "done" regarding testing.

eldad

2007-05-18, 01:17 AM

I know that the Revit developers are looking at openGL to resolve some issues with presentations of elevations and sections, I wonder if the ground work they laid down is causing the crashes relating to openGL?

we rave on and on and hardly hear from the developers...

hand471037

2007-05-18, 05:52 AM

But isn't OpenGL just a specification? So if the Factory uses the specification by the book -- and they claim they do -- then it's up to card vendors to test their drivers / cards to ensure compatibility. Like ATI has done...

It's also up to us users to properly configure said cards. When I worked for a reseller we always got a ton of support calls concerning Inventor, and a large percentage of those were regarding graphics acceleration problems with driver settings.

It's really a two-edge sword, when Revit started making better use of the graphics hardware, I knew that it would also increase the amount of issues that arose with everyone.

However, sadly, most drivers I've seen have 'Inventor' and '3DStudio' presets, they don't yet have 'Revit' presets. So we've got to figure out what works best for us, both with settings within Revit and within the options of the drivers we're using.

Up thread when I said that this was Autodesk's fault, I was just saying that if indeed they didn't do a good job on the OpenGL, and so that Revit's being unstable for some, then switching to DirectX isn't going to solve any problems. As you state, it's just a specification, so if they did follow it 100% then it's on the drivers and the settings that are causing the problems. If they didn't, then it's on Autodesk.

However, sadly, I've got to admit that I'm not convinced it's not Autodesk's fault. Those Inventor guys work some real magic in this area, and the Maya folks *really* do some impressive stuff. What, no one within Autodesk talks to each other? No one from one of those teams can't spend a year helping Revit get better at this? I've been waiting since Autodesk bought Revit for something like this to happen, and it still hasn't. It's kinda crazy that a company with their bright people and huge resources can't leverage it's know-how across product lines sometimes.

hand471037

2007-05-18, 05:53 AM

...because there was enough rudeness in enough posts to warrant blowing the whole thing away. At least that's my guess!

Wait... a Revit forum getting so rude that folks can't stand it anymore? That's insane, it's unpossible... ;-)

truevis

2007-05-18, 04:38 PM

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/services/VideoCardTesting.html

Please Autodesk, making something like that would be very kind to your customers.

angelo

2007-05-18, 07:54 PM

My crashes have finally settled down. nVidia FX550 on Dell Precision 390: OpenGL turned OFF and overplanes turned ON and haven't had one crash since then. Keeping fingers crossed...

Angelo

neb1998

2007-05-19, 03:47 AM

My crashes have finally settled down. nVidia FX550 on Dell Precision 390: OpenGL turned OFF and overplanes turned ON and haven't had one crash since then. Keeping fingers crossed...

Angelo
Its great how we can spend 1 dollar on a machine and have to cash it in for a 60 cents derivititve to support autodesks 21st century product - Great Product ADESK!

iru69

2007-05-19, 05:51 AM

Its great how we can spend 1 dollar on a machine and have to cash it in for a 60 cents derivititve to support autodesks 21st century product - Great Product ADESK!
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jcdecastro

2007-05-21, 01:40 AM

There was only 1 crash on 2008 that I knew of in our office. About 10 machines on revit projects currently.

sbrown

2007-05-21, 02:54 PM

There was only 1 crash on 2008 that I knew of in our office. About 10 machines on revit projects currently.

May I ask what your machine specs are.

Henry D

2007-05-21, 04:41 PM

May I ask what your machine specs are.
Be interesting to know...stability doesn't seem to have anything to do with computing power.
I have a 4 1/2 year old computer (P4 3.06 GHz, 2 GB Ram) with a fairly old video card (Radeon 9700 Pro) that I picked up on line for $39. I work on 60 MB files with shadows always turned on and don't have any trouble with stability.

sbrown

2007-05-21, 05:19 PM

I still would like to know. Basically I'm trying to see what graphics cards are working and what arent.

neb1998

2007-05-22, 12:10 AM

I still would like to know. Basically I'm trying to see what graphics cards are working and what arent.
Scott i am having trouble with your high end quadro cards but our onboard video dells that we use stricktly for asbuilts are not crashing with 2008. Disabling OPEN GL has worked to some extent but we are still getting crashes on larger project files - although 60 meg may not be consided large to most, compared to our 10-15 meg asbuilt projects its larger.

All machines are running windows XP, dualcore machines from amd x2-3800 to amd FX-60 and a couple intel dualcore extreme edition chips. All video cards are nvidia pro editions.

Video errors now cause revit to freeze completly instead of just the one view crashing...this sucks pretty bad.

Chad Smith

2007-06-01, 04:38 AM

Anyone heard anything else from the developers on this? Last thing I got was, here's a workaround (yep, another one), and then they closed my support request, as if to say it had been resolved.

If they are actually working on it, it would be nice to hear some feedback from Autodesk.

VinceFerrero

2007-06-01, 05:34 AM

Last thing I got was, here's a workaround....and then they closed my support request, as if to say it had been resolved.
Sorry to say, same here. It went from the to do action item list to the 'too hard' basket.

bowlingbrad

2007-06-01, 11:26 AM

...we are still getting crashes on larger project files...

Ben,
Have you tried an audit on your file? Maybe something will turn up there?

2c

ita

2007-06-11, 07:40 AM

Today I have had to install the latest R2008 build 3 times! Revit 2008 appears to crash the system and on rebooting both the system and Revit, Revit comes up with a "Fatal Error" message in the latter part of the load. This last time I watched Revit load on the Task Manager and it gets to a point around 37Mb and then loses focus for approximately 10 seconds - presumably the app is loading - then nothing happens for about 15 seconds and then the "Fatal Error " message appears.

These events did not happen on the previous build however I did have video issues which appear to have been resolved with the latest build. This build has instigated a number of crashes since installation approximately a week ago but nothing like the events of today.

The project and project file were created in Revit 2008 so there should not be issue in file upgrades from 9.1. Opening a new template file and building a new model (on the premise that the old file may have hcontained an extreme bug) did not resolve the issue. The last crash occurred on the new file in the same manner.

The issue occurring is that Revit 2008 can crash, but will not reboot without a "Fatal Error " message occurring. Once that message appears, Revit 2008 will not reload. It then has to be uninstalled and reinstalled - as R2008 does not have that very useful capability of previous versions, to reinstall the application over the top of the existing and equally does not permit content files to be ticked off as not required and not to be reloaded.

Regarding the new features, issues around stability have put these improvements way into the background. Whoever instigated the Revit 2008 installation systems needs to rethink how the changes have provided any useful benefit over a system that worked so well to so long. This crazy approach of changing things for the sake of change (or so it appears) or making the changes from marketing perspective really don't wash.

The system is a 2.20 gigahertz AMD Athlon 64 x2 Dual Core, 4GB of RAM and ATI FireGL V5000 video card which was (in truth)an absolute waste of money as a ATI FireGL V3500 on another machine is equal to or superior at half the cost.

If anyone has any suggestions the input would be very welcome.

Wes Macaulay

2007-06-11, 07:48 AM

Ian, try turning off your video acceleration in our display control panel and see if Revit loads then...

ita

2007-06-11, 08:01 AM

Thanks Wes, next time it happens it will give it a shot!

clog boy

2007-06-11, 08:52 AM

Are all 'crashers' running RA08 on a DELL? We're using HP, no issues here (yet).

ita

2007-06-11, 09:04 AM

Not a Dell; this box is a generic assembly, built about 11 months ago and has run as smooth as silk until R2008. Everything else is OK!
Been the best machine that I have ever had/used over some 30 years - starting with an Apple II in 1978.

clog boy

2007-06-11, 09:52 AM

May perhaps be incompatible network software..? Do all crashers run from network license, or stand-alone?
Don't ask me how, but I managed to purchase a home license (which has long since earned itself back) and standalone it doesn't give me any more bother than, say, Microsoft Office. (which crashes once every two weeks) I've been in offices where it crashed over five times a day (9.1), but that was a performance issue really.

My configuration (collected and assembled by yours truly): an AMD Athlon X2 4800 (2.5 ghz dualcore), 2 GB of DDR2 PC6400 (brand OCZ), ASUS M2N-E mainboard (which I grew to dislike over the past few months due to BIOS crashes), NVidia 7600GT PCI-e 16x graphics adapter, Samsung Spinpoint 250 GB SATA.

VinceFerrero

2007-06-11, 10:34 AM

Ian,

I'm not sure if I understand your problem correctly (it's night and I'm sleepy) but I'll ad a little something to this list of things that may help someone.

I've had considerable trouble with 9.1 project files which had DWG imports in them. I had to install 9.1 back onto a new machine to open the 9.1 files detach/delete and DWG references in the Revit file before being able to open them in 2008 without Revit crashing.

Endless heartache with the initial 2008 release but the new build has resolved some stability issues for me.

HTH.

ita

2007-06-12, 10:56 PM

The new build (20070607_1700) has stabilised things significantly but not totally. Will keep the forum informed should anything significant occur. Thanks for the input.

BTW Vince thanks for the thoughts - however I have not used a DWG file for some years - everything is done in Revit. I find crosspolinating of ACad files just makes things way toooo difuicult - and I'm oh so happy not to have to use that app again :)

ita

2007-06-15, 01:07 AM

An update on my R2008 instability issue.

I preface this comment with the fact that R9.1 did not create the same response as R2008 - in fact R9.1 did not crash the machine at all, so there is something in R2008 that appears to be somewhat fragile.

The outcome is that one of the1Gb SIMM cards failed (4Gb installed) and the event went unnoticed until Revit started to seriously fall over. After running Belarc Advisor to send to my IT people I noticed the reduction in RAM. We replaced the card with a new 2x1Gb Kit and sent the failed units back to the suppliers for a refund under warranty.

So, replace the failed cards -- a reasonable and effective repair and move on! Apparently not quite so.

According to my IT advisor, the fact that the OS and applications running on the machine will have run data through the failed card, which may/will have corrupted data in both functionalities. When new installations have been made installation will in all probability be corrupted; and where data files created or altered while running under the various applications, there is an extremely high probability that these also will have been corrupted to a lesser or greater extent.

The solution -- to reinstall the OS, reinstall all applications, otherwise the machine will continue to crash and continue to corrupt application files.

Returning to the Revit issue, it was quite noticeable that R9.1 functioning in a similar manner to R2008 did not crash the machine. Installation of Build 20070607_1700 reduced the failure frequency significantly and by closing the application when not required as not only reduced the crashing incidence, but also the requirement to reinstall the application. It would seem from experimenting with R9.1 and R2008 that there is a level of fragility in R2008 that is not in the previous release - just my opinion based on empirical observation.

So there it is a lesson for young and old players - something I had never come across before, because I have never ever before lost a memory card. And to the Revit team, my appologies for thinking the R2008 was the sole cause of the issue. When R2008 is running, it functions fabulously! :Oops: