Molding - Crown, Base, Casing, Trim, etc.

[dtownsend]

Does anyone have best practices for creating molding in revit?

- Crown Molding
- Base
- Casing (for Cased Openings / Doors)
- Trim

I am working on a large interiors project (contractor produced shop drawings) and I started out using wall sweeps - which works okay until you have to move a wall around and is over all a painful process when the wall is not perfectly straight.

The first phase of the project had a lot of changes and when I started moving walls it turned into a nightmare, so I ended up deleting all the wall sweeps and made a quick 2D line based detail family, so I could get the changes issues to the team.

For the phase I am working on how I am using in-place familes and creating sweeps with the molding profile. So far this is working out pretty well, but I am worried about in-place familes having an effect on my project later on.

The project is a 42 story Hotel and Condo's. I am working on Phase III of the project now - which is the hotel presidential suite.

Thanks

[iru69]

We use a lot of moldings in our residential projects and I've run into all sorts of problems with wallsweeps.

So, I've resorted to in-place families as well. You can also create a floor slab edge sweep. But they both have problems at doors and windows, so it ends up being a bunch of pieces... which not only takes a bit of work, but certainly could be problematic on a large project.

Unfortunately, Revit's simply not up to the task.

[whittendesigns]

line based families are great. you draw a line and lock it to the wall surface so if you move the wall, the line goes with it and so does your sweep (moulding)

[iru69]

Nice tip for some applications, but it has some inherent problems. For instance, if you go around an outside corner, the trim isn't going to join - on complex profile moldings, that's not going to look good.

[Joef]

I rarely do crown moldings so I am hardly an expert, but can't you include the sweep in the wall definition? It would definitely move with the wall.

[iru69]

One of the limitations of wall sweeps is that there's little control over how far they go. So, if you just want the sweep inside that corner room, you've got a problem.

You could split the wall so that it stops where you want it to, but not only does that create a mess of wall pieces, but you have big split lines running down your exterior wall.

And if you want to grab the end of that sweep and just drag it back, you have a bunch of break points at the doors... those don't just disappear, so now you're dragging half a dozen break points back along with it.

Unless someone really has an ingenious new idea to share, that's it for me. I've been through this already in previous threads. But it would be really interesting to see if anyone can come up with something... so let's hear it.

[whittendesigns]

I either don't follow you, or you don't follow me, LOL.

I have no problems at all with crown, base, custom, plain, anything at all.

[dtownsend]

Guys thanks for your input on this matter.

- whittendesigns

I have tried lined based familes before I tried the inplace familes, but it doesn't work for crown molding. I did get it to work for base.

So from here I am going to make crown molding with in-place familes and base (and other simple moldings) with line based familes.

I think a good request would be for a line based sweep that would work like the wall sweep, but instead of hosting to a wall it would allow us to draw lines.

[Joef]

I don't usually get a visible split line when I split a wall. And if you do I think you can get rid of it with join geometry. I would rather pull the sweep back from a couple doors than have to go around and draw every linear length of trim. I don't get a visible break when I pull the sweep back from a door.

[dbaldacchino]

Irusun, to solve the issue of sweeps that give you all those drag points at openings/doors/windows, all you need to do is to go to the sweep's type properties and check the option "Cut by Inserts". Now you'll only have drag handles at the start and end of the sweep, so positioning is easy.

I think you can make line-based families work just fine for the discussed application. New in 2008 is a face-based pick two Generic model family which I think should work awesome for this very modeling task. To mitre the edges of your moldings, all you need is a parameterised void (instance parameter) at both ends of your line-based family. You can probably rotate the void in two directions to also achieve compound-mitering, perhaps by nesting the family a couple of times.

[whittendesigns]

Sorry for beating a dead horse, but I just don't get it. I did this in mere minutes with the wall sweep and I don't even use that method. It took me the minutes to load the profiles and that was about it. Inside corners, outside corners, crown, base, chair, it doesn't matter what the profile is. I just don't see where your problem lies.

[iru69]

Let's keep an eye on the original post. This isn't about whether it's possible to use these tools or possible to model these conditions. If you say they work great for you, I have no reason to argue that they don't. But personally, splitting up walls at every wall intersection in my building and then joining them back together again just because it's possible doesn't really jive with my work-flow.


Irusun, to solve the issue of sweeps that give you all those drag points at openings/doors/windows, all you need to do is to go to the sweep's type properties and check the option "Cut by Inserts". Now you'll only have drag handles at the start and end of the sweep, so positioning is easy.
David, much better! I was not aware of that. That solves that part of the problem.


New in 2008 is a face-based pick two Generic model family which I think should work awesome for this very modeling task. To mitre the edges of your moldings, all you need is a parameterised void (instance parameter) at both ends of your line-based family. You can probably rotate the void in two directions to also achieve compound-mitering, perhaps by nesting the family a couple of times.
David, this sounds kind of intriguing, but what's the name of the family template for these this "face-based pick two Generic model family" you speak of? I think it would pass the "ingenious" test, but it sounds awfully complicated when you start adding up dozens of base moldings, crown moldings, etc.?

For those of you following at home, keep in mind that in-place sweep families for moldings are actually pretty easy and fast to create and you can lock the path lines to walls and door frames and stuff so that they'll even adjust to walls and doors and stuff moving. Create them on your floor plan for base trim and on your RCP for crown molding, and you're set. You can try the wall sweep method (along with David's outstanding tip above), but when placing them on interior walls, you either have to be in interior elevations or in 3D with the section box turned on in either bird's eye or worm's eye mode. However if you get frustrated with wall sweeps going every which way, sometimes joining at corners, and sometimes not (we're talking a "real world" building here, not some "tutorial" model), definitely take a look at in-place sweep families. I put it off for a long time because they sounded complicated, but it turns out they're not.

But I'm always open to something that works better (for me). I'd really like to see an option to the wall sweep where you could just draw the path in plan, pick the profile and there you have it (basically a much more direct way of doing what I'm already doing with the in-place sweep family method).

Good stuff everyone.

[dtownsend]

Here is a nice example of what happens often times with the wall sweep tool with Crown Molding. The corner doesn't miter correctly and you have to drag the little nodes around until it decided to be nice and miter.

I know this is an issue with how I have my walls set-up in this project, but it is still a pain.

[dtownsend]

Here is an issue at a cased opening with the base.

I have a 5/8" GWB wall that has the profile edited to show the opening (I tried other methods for doing cased opening and decided this was the best way for this project.)

I place the base and it goes on the wall fine and even creates sepeate segments to account for the opening in the wall. The only problem is on the small wall segment I have casing that goes to the floor and doesn't have any base. But - I have this new segment that can be dragged out of the way of the casing, but can not be deleted.

I was dragging it to either the far left and right and just making it go with the other base. This is a pain and doesn't happen with line based familes or inplace familes.

---

In real world situation you are going to run in a number of places that the wall sweeps just is not a good solution.

[dbaldacchino]

Dustin, check my post above....you can then create multiple sweep segments where needed without all the individual drag segments at inserts. Revit will complain about overlapping sweeps....ignore the warning and then drag either start/end drag point.

As to the face-based pick-2 family, it's actually not a new family. The pick-2 GM family has been enhanced and now you can place it either on a face (default) or by workplane. You highlight a plane and then pick the two points. It saves you from having to manually set the workplane before sketching the "line".

[Joef]

The "face based 2 pick family" may not be new, but it is poorly documented (if at all). To someone new to Revit it is nothing more than jargon. Just try finding the 2 pick family template.

[iru69]

The "face based 2 pick family" may not be new, but it is poorly documented (if at all). To someone new to Revit it is nothing more than jargon. Just try finding the 2 pick family template.
Part of the confusion is that "line-based" families are often referred to as "2 pick" families on this forum. Not sure who's responsible for that... maybe it got started in the beta forums.

The documentation uses the "line-based" terminology for the most part. Line based families are not new and they are documented.

The "face based" part is not part of the family template, but rather when you place a line-based family within a project, Revit allows you to place it either by face or by workplane (as it does with a number of elements).

I don't think it's the fault of the Revit documentation that David made up a name for what he was trying to convey. ;)

[Joef]

I don't think it's the fault of the Revit documentation that David made up a name for what he was trying to convey. ;)You are right. The documentation is prettty clear about line based families. I get confused when the ' two pick " stuff comes into play because I'm never exactly clear what it refers to. I remember when I started using Revit all the jargon (instance parameter, type parameter, project parameter, etc.) was a challenge. It made it seem more complex than it really is. This is a productive discussion. I intend to try some of these methods and see which I find most effective for my own work.

[dbaldacchino]

Haha yep, I've seen it referred as 2-pick/pick-2 or whatever and sometimes I use that term...I'll stick with line-based from now on :) And yep, the ability to place on a face is new to the 2008 Revit platforms. I believe the main reason it was introduced was to make it easy to model stiffners on beams, etc. since you just pick the face and draw your line-based family. Of course we'll find a million other ways to use them!

[ws]

Aha... so that's what '2 pick' families are - baffled me that one, thanks

:)

[truevis]

Line-based is the correct term. You can split, trim, and chain them like lines.

There are no samples installed with 9.1, just the templates.

Attached is a simple dentil. You can also run a profile down it.

[dhurtubise]

You can also use slab edge to do molding, the only thing is that they don't break at opening so you have to manually do it. But it's really fast and can easily be schedule.

[ws]

Ingenious :) and thanks for posting the family.

There is definitely something about Revit that stimulates the parts of the brain other cad products do not reach 8)

[tomnewsom]

You can also use slab edge to do molding, the only thing is that they don't break at opening so you have to manually do it. But it's really fast and can easily be schedule.
I just wish they could be hosted by ceiling edges :(

[ws]

I just wish they could be hosted by ceiling edges :(
Umm, I wondered about that - presumably you can do it manually by drawing a line around the coving/cornice as with other line-based families (I'm starting to sound as though I know what I'm talking about, which is far from the truth ;))

[truevis]

I just wish they could be hosted by ceiling edges :(
You select the work plane that you want the family put on, then place it.

I've made fake roof structure that I put on the underside of roofs to show exposed beams.

[ws]

I've made fake roof structure that I put on the underside of roofs to show exposed beams.

Interesting - I was meaning to ask what people did about ceilings which followed the roof slope, perhaps for only part of the slope and then flattened off etc.

[truevis]

Interesting - I was meaning to ask what people did about ceilings which followed the roof slope, perhaps for only part of the slope and then flattened off etc.
Here's the mentioned family...

[ws]

cheers truevis - I'll pick through that, thanks.

Incidentally it's so easy to just open one of these files in Revit whether it's Imperial or Metric - it just works (and for us here in the UK, Revit's ability to enter feet and inches in a dimension while working in a Metric template is just heavenly ;-))

[tomnewsom]

You select the work plane that you want the family put on, then place it.

I've made fake roof structure that I put on the underside of roofs to show exposed beams.
This is fine for in-place, but I'm talking about 'Ceiling Edge' like 'Slab Edge' - ie. something that's bound to the ceiling boundary, not the the ceiling face, and which re-builds when you change the ceiling. Heck, this could even be a parameter in the ceiling type "select architrave"

[Andre Baros]

We've taken a mixed approach... which has slowly moved away from wall sweeps for interior trim. It's still a bit of a mess, but we've gone the route of multiple families inserted into a project. Line based families (with 3 different end conditions nested inside), instances of a "room" of crown molding (which only works in rectangular rooms), sills, casings, etc.

For most part we've found that the more you host on walls the more problems you have. The most common issues are slower files, missing elements, and lots of workset issues. It's very common for us to alter a wall in one part of a project and have hosted sweep get deleted somewhere else in the project.

I really like the idea of using slab edges... that could save lots of time, and could even work for crowns, you just need to know your vertical offset.

[whittendesigns]

OK, lemme try from a different angle. What my brain does and what my hands type are sometimes two different things. I typed something before I completely don't do, so I apologize for the numb response.

And I probably am repeating what someone has already said, so I'm going for the big whack up side the head with a 2x.

For moulding sweeps, I use a line, not a line based family. I make a level at whatever height I need, or offset the level to whatever I need, then I attach lines to the face of the walls. I split the lines and trim accordingly.

THEN, I use the FASCIA sweep and it hits the lines UNLIKE wall sweeps.

But it is yet another workaround to the same problem everyone else is saying.

I agree it would be much nicer to have a better tool for this.

[Andre Baros]

I just want to know what it is about saving to central which prompts Revit to delete all my wall sweeps. Why can I join a wall sweep when I'm working on the file only to have it unjoined when I save to central??? This is the fundamental problem with wall sweeps for me.

[dbaldacchino]

Andre, so this is happening even with a clean Review Warnings dialog?

[Andre Baros]

Err, umm, not even close... I'll clean it up and see what happens.

[steve922542]

I did this in mere minutes with the wall sweep and I don't even use that method. It took me the minutes to load the profiles and that was about it. Inside corners, outside corners, crown, base, chair, it doesn't matter what the profile is. I just don't see where your problem lies.

I wish you were local, I need about a half day of training on this. I had hoped to jump right in to detailing millwork interiors, but (due to my newbie status) have run into countless problems that are showstoppers at this point.

You've given me hope.

-Steve

[david.fannon]

I either don't follow you, or you don't follow me, LOL.

I have no problems at all with crown, base, custom, plain, anything at all.

Okay, so this was all with line-based? And nested voids to do the mitres? Dang but that's cool.

[richard.binning]

Thought I'd share this Crown Family with adjustable angles at each end condition. Leave the default 45 for outside corners, change em to 135 for inside corners. Perhaps I should swap those settings?

Note: These can be quantified.

[Kevin Janik]

The Family seems quite simple and should be small in size but it is over 3 MB. Any idea?

I would think it should be about 1/30th that size.

Kevin

[richard.binning]

Thanks for the heads up on the size.
Yep...I left all the materials in there. I've since deleted them and only left a number of sherwin williams standard colors in there.

Unfortunately, materials don't get purged by purge all unused!

File reattached to original.

[t1.shep]

Irusun, to solve the issue of sweeps that give you all those drag points at openings/doors/windows, all you need to do is to go to the sweep's type properties and check the option "Cut by Inserts". Now you'll only have drag handles at the start and end of the sweep, so positioning is easy.

I think you can make line-based families work just fine for the discussed application. New in 2008 is a face-based pick two Generic model family which I think should work awesome for this very modeling task. To mitre the edges of your moldings, all you need is a parameterised void (instance parameter) at both ends of your line-based family. You can probably rotate the void in two directions to also achieve compound-mitering, perhaps by nesting the family a couple of times.

I know this is an old post, but maybe you could help me out and elaborate on this technique? How do you get the void to cut sometimes but not all the time? do you create a family that is a void and then nest in the solid multiple times? Or do you create the solid and then nest in a void family? If you do that then you have to create a void in a face-base family correct?
If I want to have a solid member that has inside and outside corner capabilities at each end, how do I accomplish that?

[richard.binning]

<snip>...If I want to have a solid member that has inside and outside corner capabilities at each end, how do I accomplish that?<snip>
Did you look at the family example that was posted? It has both capabilities at each end.

[t1.shep]

<snip>...If I want to have a solid member that has inside and outside corner capabilities at each end, how do I accomplish that?<snip>
Did you look at the family example that was posted? It has both capabilities at each end.

thanks for the quick reply...Can that family also just have straight ends (i.e. no miter)? Since you can't apply a yes/no parameter to turn the void on or off, I tried to set the angle to 0 and it gave me a constraint error? Do you have two separate families, one that is straight and one that is for miter conditions?

[richard.binning]

Try setting the angle to 90. That would be a butt condition.

[t1.shep]

Try setting the angle to 90. That would be a butt condition.

That would make too much sense! :mrgreen::beer: