Are your clients using Revit?

[Andre Baros]

We have a client who is considering setting up a Revit station so that they can view our model instead of our drawings. They don't see the point in us plotting or pdf'ing parts of the building when they could just see the whole thing.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is there a viewer option? If we use worksets can be share only select worksets?

[Scott Hopkins]

The download demo version of Revit functions as a great free viewer.

[ita]

That what I get my clients to do. It makes it so much easier than static drawings and they love the interaction. The only issue at the moment is the 30 day free trial. I get the client to downlioad when we sign the agreements so by the time models are deliverd (by email) they don't have an active product that ennables them to change things!!

Also depanding on your ISP (and the clients), as there may be limits on file sizes (even compressed) that make email delivery difficult.

[GuyR]

The only issue at the moment is the 30 day free trial.

It's 60 days now

guy

[BomberAIA]

I had 1 client download Revit t view his model. Several had asked about using Revit.

[LRaiz]

If clients want to use Revit just for viewing then the length of the trial period should not present a problem. Revit has a demo/viewing mode that operates forever. In this mode users could do anything including viewing. Most importantly demo/viewing mode allows printing. The only significant restriction is that in this mode no output may be produced (no file | save, print or export) if user made model modifications. For as long as your clients do not make model changes they should be able to view and print your designs using demo mode.

Just instruct your clients to click 'demo mode' radio button in Help | Product Info and License dialog.

[Steve_Stafford]

Ita's point, as I understand it, was to "delay" the client access to the model until after the trial period would have expired purposefully so no modifications could be done...but then there's nothing to prevent them from buying it, right?8)

[Andre Baros]

My biggest issue is whether or not they "got" it... it's easy for me as an architect but sometimes the jump can be big for people who are not as familier with the terms and mores of the field.

Glad to hear that it's working for people and that clients aren't having problems with all the overhead.

Thanks,

[christie.landry]

The only significant restriction is that in this mode no output may be produced (no file | save, print or export) if user made model modifications. For as long as your clients do not make model changes they should be able to view and print your designs using demo mode.
My understanding is that you can't print with that version either.

[aaronrumple]

...you can print an existing project, but not a new one. As soon as you alter the project in any way, you can no longer print.

[Steve_Stafford]

...As soon as you alter the project in any way, you can no longer print....
FWIW, This includes changing something in printing settings, once you change a paper size for example, you can print that time...but no more after that. You have to open the project again fresh. Makes it a little awkward to print out on 11x17 and turn around and print an 8 1/2 x 11. You have to close and reopen the project each time.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I've also had trouble on workset enabled projects. Unless the person printing is using exactly the same printer settings you get the error message that you don't have access to the workset that allows changing the printer setting and then you can't even print!

Is there a way to prevent this?

[Steve_Stafford]

Change your workset username to "Client"
Open the central file
Check out all worksets (to Client)
Send a copy to the client
Before opening the project, client changes their Workset username to "Client"
Open project (client disregards error message about the central file being moved etc)
Print etc (same limitation I describe is true after you successfully print once)

After you do this be sure to save to central and relinquish everything, then restore your normal username.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Thanks Steve, I'll have to give that a try next time.

[D_Driver]

...you can print an existing project, but not a new one. As soon as you alter the project in any way, you can no longer print.

so...is that a feature autodesk can give us the rights to turn on? - would be very cool for digital rights management.
David Driver

[ita]

Andre, what is it about your clients having a copy of the project? On paper they have a copy of the project!! Where is the difference? What is being given away or lost here?

Copyright laws protect your intellectual property - provided of course you have signed an agreement on the scope of services and mutual responsibilities. In most of these agreements that I have seen, the client has a right to use the materials THAT THEY HAVE PAID FOR on the agreed site. Equally you can sigh away your rights or agree for the client to use the material on another site for agreed consideration.

However - admittedly I do not know the copyright laws in other localities - but in Australia, a client signing with an Architect's Agreement with an architect has the legal right to use all the architects intellectual property prepared for that site but only on that site - even if the material is a note, a diagram, an idea on the back of an envelope or a full construction set - it does not matter. The client can use any material that they have paid for on that site.

The same goes for contractors. In Australia many architect are against giving the contractor (head or otherwise) a set of the documents electronically. Why? If it helps the process of getting the project expedited what is the issue? Personally I cannot fathom this. to me the object of the exercise is to get a building built in this lifetime!!

I would rather the contractor download the latest (fully amended) set of documents and use those on the project rather than the old and outdated sets stuck in some desk in his site office or vehicle. I would rather he/she had a pda and downloaded the latest doc set from a web site that was used on site.

This is part of the process of change in our world and the faster it gets to the construction industry - the better. That is what Revit is about!! Providing relevant information in a useful format.

In reality, what is there in most documents that the client or the builder has not got on or in another medium?

Let us think this one through a little more rationally.

Equally if the original file (copyrighted) is an issue, the use of other formats can produce the same result for a client as a Revit file - fly th roughs produced in in Viz (2005??) and transposed to Quicktime? - static documents such as any drawing/documents produced on paper issued to the client in pdf format or via DWF composer.

I use Revit files because it saves me time and they are looking at what I look at when we talk on the phone. That makes life easier.

[MartyC]

Interesting points Ian.

I personally have a bit of a problem with providing anything to a client other than hard copy or pdf's. Most of my work is in the residential field, maybe I am a little paranoid, but here in Queensland there are plenty of unruly folk who are all too pleased to rip off anyones intellectual property without a care. I had an interesting conversation with a typical ratbag developer here a couple of months ago who gleefully said 'why the hell would I pay an architect silly amounts of money when I can download any old plan off the internet for free and give it to a draughtsman to draw up'. I pointed out the intellectual property issue and he replied 'ha, just see if you can catch me'. I naturally declined to continue any further dicussion with this guy.

I also see a lot of rip offs in consulting work I do. The violation of intellectual property here is simply rife. To illustrate my point, I provided a fee proposal to a private client some months ago, didnt hear back from them, then I was presented their house proposal for assessment against building covenants as part of my consulting work. The proposal was ripped off from a volume builders website, a couple of things changed, and final drawings badly drawn up by a draughtsman (in Revit). I knew the design, had seen it before. So there is also a private client ripping work off at no cost to them.

As far as I am concerned any client, builder or developer who wants the whole project file to 'look at' on their own copy of Revit, is working up to a rip-off, or an opportunity to 'play' with the work because of course 'they know better'. What is the problem with them just downloading the latest pdf or dwf? Nah, the old story, if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck........its a bloody duck!

I hate having to be the copyright police, and while the law exists, and our engagement agreements exist, there are still a whole bunch of people who are very happy to screw the Architect wherever possible. Chasing up unscrupulous and illegal behaviour should not be the job of the Architect.

The sooner the profession here has some form of real world and proper professional and legal control, and legislation with teeth, the better. Architects have moral and ethical obligations but quite honestly, in this state no one else does.

In summary, give them a pdf, or if they insist on the whole file, the fee just went up 300%!!

My 35c worth for the afternoon.

CheersM

[Wes Macaulay]

I quite agree. The only time I would consider letting an RVT out of the office is when working in a design-build relationship. Those kinds of projects are almost certainly going to be one-offs and not reproducable like a house project, which as Marty and Ian know too well, can be copied interminably with little fear of reprisal.

[Andre Baros]

I'm actually a big fan of providing the client with lots of information... better now than when they move in and see something different then they "thought" they saw on the drawings. My practical question when I started this thread was client comfort with Revit as a viewing tool. The project that I had posed it for is on hold right now so I can't say if the process is working or not. The projects we work on are unique enough that I'm not really worried about people ripping designs off but much more concerned with them being able to read and navigate all the unique information we provide them.

On a related note, the problem with have had is with clients who try to become desingers and turn us into a very high rate drafting service as they play with the drawings and expect us to simply follow behind and make things work. A very difficult process.

[SCShell]

Hey all,

VERY interesting thread!!
My opinion is based on my experience as a sole practitioner after almost 16 years. I am always reminded of a saying from the first Architect I worked for in 1982 here in Tucson.

"The minute the client takes the pencil out of your hand in a meeting, you've lost control."
I guess I can update that to read "mouse" instead of pencil now; however, the ideal still remains true in my mind.

Steve Shell
Architect

[bclarch]

Does anyone here think that GM would give anyone the electronic design files for the car they bought just in case they wanted to make some "fix" or "change" to the car at a later date?

[David Conant]

Every such response has its equally appropriate converse. You can be sure that Boeing Aircraft supplies United Airlines with sufficient electronic documentation to fully understand and maintain their 767's. The interesting question is not whether it is appropriate for designers to give their customers models or documentation, but rather, what ways can they leverage the information in their design to supply (and charge for) extra value to the customer.
Extra value can be found in many ways, some of which may involve providing the owner with documentation. Different usage will require different levels of intelligence in the provided documentation. In some cases, the traditional paper set or digital image delivers as much value as can be reasonably extracted. Other owners may find that a digital medium with embedded information but no editing such as dwf allows them to do things that are important. Still others may want a complete Revit project in order to support post occupation applications such as a retail user who wants to connect a store layout plan to a merchandise database.
If the value is great enough, owners will be willing to pay. If that includes supplying documents, an appropriate charge, document medium, and usage limitations can be negotiated. If a reasonable price can't be found, it is an indication that sufficient value has not been found either.

[JohnASB]

The need does exists to be able to give the client the model for future use as well as to be able to lock down the model so it can't be shopped to a new firm while in process or reused in whole or part after the fact.

Ideas for locking down the file (with password) might include:

-changing existing phase to pre-existing phase and new to existing phase, then locking down those phases from copy/delete/edit (but not from demolition).

-locking down loaded families and imports from use or export

-Optionally, leave materials operable for client to play with in early phases

-Optionally, leave Options operable for client input in early phases.