Chilled Beam Family?

[s.messing]

Hey everybody,

It seems that I might be on the early end of asking for family help, but I am new to MEP starting with the release of 2008. I imagine that this site will fill quickly with people sharing information, advice, and families (like the Architecture 2008 forum). So, it looks like I am getting the ball rolling...

I am looking for a chilled beam family. Has anyone created one that we can use as a start?

Thank you for any help that you can give.

Cheers,
Stephen

[s.messing]

Hey everybody,

It seems that I might be on the early end of asking for family help, but I am new to MEP starting with the release of 2008. I imagine that this site will fill quickly with people sharing information, advice, and families (like the Architecture 2008 forum). So, it looks like I am getting the ball rolling...

I am looking for a chilled beam family. Has anyone created one that we can use as a start?

Thank you for any help that you can give.

Cheers,
Stephen
Maybe I should rephrase my question and ask: is anybody is using Revit MEP 2008 yet? I am preparing myself to be totally surprised that no one has jumped on board yet. This software is like coal on its way to becoming a diamond. If I were an engineer, I'd love to be one of the early adopters in this game. I am surprised that only 14 people have viewed my post and I've got zero responses.

So, before I give up hope on this chilled beam family, I will ask one more time: Does anyone happen to have a pre-made chilled beam family that we can use to get us started?

Waters are being tested....

Cheers,
Stephen

[mjdanowski]

I think the problems you are going to see with this are as follows:

A) Nobody has many families out there for specific things like that yet.

B) Families, unlike blocks in AutoCAD, require lots of time and training to create. Most people are outsourcing to get it done, and are paying a lot of money for it. Therefore, I think until Revit MEP has gotten a lot more widespread acceptance from manufacturers/hobbyists and the such, a lot of families are going to be considered proprietary.

On a side note you should really attempt to create your families yourself. The experiences gained from figuring out Revit's way of "doing things" will be your first step towards creating a working project in the software.
Revit is a very complex piece of software, and if you try to attack a project like you would one in AutoCAD you will most likely fail, or come into more trouble then Revit is worth. You really need to start from the ground up, and family editing is a great place to start.

[Steve_Stafford]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a chilled beam?

[truevis]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a chilled beam?From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilled_beam
A chilled beam is a building cooling device that circulates air using the principles of natural heat convection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_heat_convection). A recent innovation[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilled_beam#_note-LabDesign), the major advantage of a chilled beam over more common forced air systems is that it circulates building air without the noise and expense of ductwork and air handlers. Typically mounted overhead near or within a ceiling, the beam is a type of radiator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiator), chilled by an external source such as recirculated water. It cools the space below it by acting as a heat sink for the naturally rising warm air of the space. Once cooled, the air naturally drops back to the floor where the cycle begins again.


There are two general types of chilled beams: passive and active[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilled_beam#_note-AEI). The chief difference is the active use of fans or other axillary devices to aid in air recirculation. The trade-off for increased volume and spread are components that can contribute noise, maintenance, and support services not needed by the passive type.

So, how would one start to model it in RMEP? As a plumbing fixture, perhaps?

[chodosh]

Good question about how to start building a Chilled Beam Family in MEP if there isn't anything out there already. For that matter, what about Radiators? I don't think that I would start at plumbing (a ceiling-based plumbing fixture...?) for a chilled beam, however. A group of Architects in my office modeled a simple (parametrically challenged) mass family for a chilled beam just to get something illustrative into our RCP's and sections since we are not using Revit MEP on that particular job.

Any MEP Engineers out there with suggestions?

The shape(s) should be pretty easy to build, I guess I am wondering more about the parameters and how to get something intelligent enough to affect both the HVAC loads and ambient temperatures in a room/zone based on passive convection data not active CFM/duct data? My gut reaction would be to start with a Mechanical Ceiling-based template in favor of any of the plumbing templates. That's as far as my knowledge can take me without giving it a try. Radiators would be another matter. Generic models might work if you could rewrite your export to DWG to get it onto a mech layer. Specialty Equipment maybe?

I realize I am rambling, sorry, but is anyone out there with a clear idea of how to begin making this work? I cannot believe that there isn't better advice that to go build it yourself! To reiterate what Stephen is asking, has anyone begun to try to build something like this parametrically yet?

Thank you truevis for the great definitions and wiki links. And, for Steve, here is a *.dwg example from TroxCAD in case you (or anyone else) might be curious about what a chilled beam looks like in 3d although I am sure you already did your homework. From Trox USA: http://www.troxusa.com/usa/download/sw_support/index.php#td_1_69667

-LC

[mjdanowski]

Good question about how to start building a Chilled Beam Family in MEP if there isn't anything out there already. For that matter, what about Radiators? I don't think that I would start at plumbing (a ceiling-based plumbing fixture...?) for a chilled beam, however. A group of Architects in my office modeled a simple (parametrically challenged) mass family for a chilled beam just to get something illustrative into our RCP's and sections since we are not using Revit MEP on that particular job.

Any MEP Engineers out there with suggestions?

The shape(s) should be pretty easy to build, I guess I am wondering more about the parameters and how to get something intelligent enough to affect both the HVAC loads and ambient temperatures in a room/zone based on passive convection data not active CFM/duct data? My gut reaction would be to start with a Mechanical Ceiling-based template in favor of any of the plumbing templates. That's as far as my knowledge can take me without giving it a try. Radiators would be another matter. Generic models might work if you could rewrite your export to DWG to get it onto a mech layer. Specialty Equipment maybe?

I realize I am rambling, sorry, but is anyone out there with a clear idea of how to begin making this work? I cannot believe that there isn't better advice that to go build it yourself! To reiterate what Stephen is asking, has anyone begun to try to build something like this parametrically yet?

Thank you truevis for the great definitions and wiki links. And, for Steve, here is a *.dwg example from TroxCAD in case you (or anyone else) might be curious about what a chilled beam looks like in 3d although I am sure you already did your homework. From Trox USA: http://www.troxusa.com/usa/download/sw_support/index.php#td_1_69667

-LC

One place I always start when trying to figure out a new kind of custom family like this is first checking out what Autodesk did on a similar family. Looking at the families "hydron ic fin tube radiator" and "multi hosted radiator" I see two family parameters to define a BTU load for the radiator, but it seems there are no links to any heating/cooling load calculations at the moment. However, that is just for plumbing (or as was explained before, a passive element). For the active chilled beam you could easily make a family with 2 linked plumbing fixtures, and a single "output" HVAC connector to sort of connect yourself to building load calculations. However, as I see it from my point of view (not a HVAC guy here mind you), MEP doesn't have much on the side of "actual" load calculations outside of flow. The big thing is that it will calculate the design loads through IES (kinda like trace). But like I said, I am just a silly electrical caveman, your futuristic heating loads and calculations confuse and scare me. :)
As far as geometry is concerned, the general consensus among MEP users is face based all the way, however when you have a thing such as this that may get tricky with placement, I usually go with the no host family (or "floater" as I like to call it) so I can easily just plop it into position and constrain post placement if needed.

I think your best implementation of this though is to use these families as scheduling devices rather then try to make them "rigged intelligent," you really aren't going to get that much benefit out of it in the long run and you are going to beat yourself over the head trying to get it to work. As with many things with MEP, the framework is there but the implementation is far from complete.

[Michael.c]

I think the problems you are going to see with this are as follows:

A) Nobody has many families out there for specific things like that yet.

B) Families, unlike blocks in AutoCAD, require lots of time and training to create. Most people are outsourcing to get it done, and are paying a lot of money for it. Therefore, I think until Revit MEP has gotten a lot more widespread acceptance from manufacturers/hobbyists and the such, a lot of families are going to be considered proprietary.



Yeah, I tend to agree with you there, mjdanowski. Our company is currently in the process of developing a family library. Not done much yet, still at the bottom of the learning curve, so everything is taking a LONG time! Consequently, for commercial reasons we have been encouraged by company management not to share around what we produce for the time being. Understandable I guess.

Stephen, specifically on the chilled beam thing, I wouldn't imagine that would be a particulary complex family to create compared with other mechanical items. Try building a centrifugal chiller for example!!
Good luck

Michael

[rzollin]

Hi. We are using 2008 and our team made a generic ceiling based mechanical equipment aka chilled beam if you'd like to give it a spin, please contact me via e-mail rzollin@payette.com. Thanks.

-Becky


Hey everybody,

It seems that I might be on the early end of asking for family help, but I am new to MEP starting with the release of 2008. I imagine that this site will fill quickly with people sharing information, advice, and families (like the Architecture 2008 forum). So, it looks like I am getting the ball rolling...

I am looking for a chilled beam family. Has anyone created one that we can use as a start?

Thank you for any help that you can give.

Cheers,
Stephen

[truevis]

Hi. We are using 2008 and our team made a generic ceiling based mechanical equipment aka chilled beam ...
Isn't it better to make one's families non-based, i.e. floating? Or at least face-based?

Especially the MEP stuff.