Viewports and Defpoint layer

[dallredcadman]

I have always been told not to put anything but notes on the defpoint layer but where i work there is a lot of people that like to put Viewports on Defpoints. My understanding behind not putting a viewport on Defpoints is for the simple matter of possibly wanting the viewport to show and for easier manipulation in layer control. Is there any other reason besides that?

Thanks

[tedg]

I have always been told not to put anything but notes on the defpoint layer but where i work there is a lot of people that like to put Viewports on Defpoints. My understanding behind not putting a viewport on Defpoints is for the simple matter of possibly wanting the viewport to show and for easier manipulation in layer control. Is there any other reason besides that?

ThanksI've seen that done allot, it ensures that the viewport will not be accidently plotted.

I think it goes back to earlier releases where you couldn't assign "no plot" to a layer, and was just carried forward. So the viewports could be seen and manipulated and left "on" when plotting.

We have a "no plot" layer for viewports called GI-VPRT that can be accidently left on and won't plot or could be frozen if you wanted.

As far as I know there's no harm in using the defpoints layer for viewports but others may disagree. But if you have the ability to have an assigned layer for viewports that match your layer naming convention, why not have one?

[Maverick91]

Using Defpoints layer for anything is not a good idea. True, it's a non-plotting layer, but there are other ways to make other layers non-plotting or not visible. Similarly, take care when using layer 0. Overall, this leads to better layer management and CAD standards.

[cadtag]

Layer 0 and DEFPOINTS are 'magic' layers. Adesk has programmed certain functionality in the application that is triggered by those names. It's not well documented, and using those two layer names for real design or drafting work is risky. The behavior observable today may or may not be followed up in the next release or service pack.

using those layer names for anything can and will result in people tryint to treat them as though they were normal layers, e.g. freezing DEFPOINTS to hide stuff from displaying. Once you start doing that, unexpected behavior results, because they are not normal layers.

It's an even worse drafting practice than using "STANDARD" as your sole text style and defining it to use a different shx file.

Bottom line is that the functionality people are using defpoints for is better served by using real layers with predictable behavior.

[rrancourt]

I agree with Ted's comment above. Most of our customizations have rolled over so to speak from earlier releases. We still have a viewport creation tool that will make a viewport on the "defpoints" layer that I use daily. It may be time to update the tool to put the viewports on a non-plotting layer though.

I have only had one problem with a viewport on the defpoints layer in the past and that was in version 2000 when I was in college. I was working on a 3D model and for some reason we could not reactivate the viewport after working in it for about 30 mins. Even my teacher was stumped and we ended up calling Autodesk. Unfortunately, I can't remember what the actual fix was or why it did it...

[david_peterson]

Using defpoints for anything other that what they were ment for is a bad idea. Nothing should ever go on this layer. The only reason the layer was there was for dimension points. Use a g-nplt or sim for non-plotting items. Defpoints for viewports is :veryevil:

[TerribleTim]

Just to throw my $0.98 ($0.02 after inflation) into the mix. . .

I agree with Ted, the defpoints layer viewport theory is from releases that had no "no-plot" layer feature. Build your own layer for your viewports, call it, oh I don't know, "g-vprt" or something like that. (mine is "cad-model-vprt) Make it "no-plot" and give it the most odd-ball color you can that matches NOTHING else. Makes it easy to understand when you see it in a drawing and more important, easy when someone outside your firm sees it. Imagine if you could just click on the object in question in ANY drawing and understand what it is by the layer name of the layer it is on!

[jaberwok]

I agree with the others - when the software produces layers for its own use we should not use those layers for other purposes. We do not know exactly how they are used and could create downstream problems by using them.

[dallredcadman]

Thank you all for your response. I have another question, what would be the best way to handle a rouge engineer that is putting all of their viewports on defpoints?

[Maverick91]

Thank you all for your response. I have another question, what would be the best way to handle a rouge engineer that is putting all of their viewports on defpoints?Does your office have CAD standards? Is he adhering to them?

You could try explaining things to him, like we've discussed here.

Do you send your drawing files out of the office, either to other offices in the company or an another company? An unorganized dwg does reflect on your company almost as much as anything else that your company produces.

[Opie]

Other than stating that using defpoints is not a good idea, what kind of problems will occur? Many people state this is a bad idea to use the layers the software creates.

We all use layer 0. Isn't it a layer created and required by the software?

Instead of what everyone else is saying about using these software created layers, what are the downfalls that may occur by using them?

[Gareth.Penn]

Thank you all for your response. I have another question, what would be the best way to handle a rouge engineer that is putting all of their viewports on defpoints?

Not everyone uses layer 0, I have no idea what problems there may be further in down the line, but everything that is drawn on the screen is part of an object which should be on a named layer, same geas for text, dims and viewports. Nothing goes on 0 or defpoints.

As for the engineer would they not feel more at comfortable wearing a less outlandish colour like brown or biege.

[tedg]

Other than stating that using defpoints is not a good idea, what kind of problems will occur? Many people state this is a bad idea to use the layers the software creates.

We all use layer 0. Isn't it a layer created and required by the software?

Instead of what everyone else is saying about using these software created layers, what are the downfalls that may occur by using them?Hi Opie, I don't really have a probelm with using the defpoints layer, I don't think it effects anything even if you freeze that layer for some reason.

......As far as I know there's no harm in using the defpoints layer for viewports but others may disagree. But if you have the ability to have an assigned layer for viewports that match your layer naming convention, why not have one?I would just advise creating a layer for the purpose instead of using it.

As far as using layer zero (I believe layer zero is a parent to the defpoints layer), It should be reserved for creating raw blocks so when the block is inserted on a particular layer, it takes on the layer's properties. You can't do that with any other layer. Also, if you have a block made up of entities on different layers, it's a good idea to insert that on layer zero so it's not nested further.

Some people use layer zero for attaching xrefs, for the same reason as inserting a block.

That's my two cents for anyone reading this thread for information.
As Opie asked, "what are the potential problems?" (I paraphrased)

[TerribleTim]

I can't really state any potential problems with putting your viewports on the defpoints layer. However, I will add this (and it is purely my opinion) -
Puting the viewports on the defpoints layer makes your drawing more difficult to understand by someone who is not you. Like I stated previously, if the viewports are on thier own named layer, all you need to do is click on the object and the layer name will explain what that object in your drawing is. If it is a rectangle on the defpoints layer, how do you know what it is? Sure, you can figure it out, but it takes longer to figure it out. Also, what happens when someone decides to freeze the defpoints layer to hide something else that was on that layer (like area boundaries, or whatever)? So it's not so much "what bad things will happen" as it is "keep your drawing stupid-simple". Hope that helps your arguement on this. I'm very against the viewports on defpoints dillemma. I deal with it here. Here is a nice little trick to shake things up a bit! If you have an office standard in place, and your office uses a standard template, attach a standards file to the template! Then EVERY time they save the drawing they will get this little "standards violation" notice if they stray from the office standards. Eventually they will get sick of the message and either comply or learn how to disable it. ;-)

[jaberwok]

Many people have reported problems with dimensions when either 0 or defpoints is disturbed.
I've not had problems - I don't use those layers.
I've known a couple of companies where part of the final check/setup routine was to make 0 current and temporarily freeze all layers with the stated aim that nothing should be visible.

[framedNlv]

If it is a rectangle on the defpoints layer, how do you know what it is? Sure, you can figure it out, but it takes longer to figure it out. Also, what happens when someone decides to freeze the defpoints layer to hide something else that was on that layer (like area boundaries, or whatever)?

TeriblTim,
Are you saying it would be OK to use defpoints for boundaries or whatever as long as you don't use defpoints for viewports?

We use defpoints for viewports, no problem here. Our plot routine will thaw and turn on defpoints and layer "0". We also change the files we receive from others to have all xrefs on layer "0" ,which resolves that nested layer problem (only had one instance of it being a problem where the original layer was to control xrefs in the viewports). ;;side note, we have receive files with the xrefs on defpoints, dimension layers and even on the user defined no-plot layer.

I can say it is real annoying to xref a drawing that has area/sqft and all kinds of misl junk on defpoints or layer "0".

I really don't think in the future defpoints will be a problem for viewports.

My 14-2008 cents worth,
Chris

[TerribleTim]

TeriblTim,
Are you saying it would be OK to use defpoints for boundaries or whatever as long as you don't use defpoints for viewports?
. . .
Umm, I don't know if it is ok, but I know that's how we do it here. Actually, I should say how I do it here. The only thing I want on defpoints other than dimension nodes is a boundary line that I need to ask sf of. Other than that, I try to keep it empty. Now I do have a guy here who puts his viewports on defpoints due to the "can't teach old dog new trick" situation, no matter how much I complain. When I get his drawings, I add my viewport layer via design center and move all his viewports over to that layer, then he never really knows I did it. Some day he will get it, some day. . .

[Opie]

Puting the viewports on the defpoints layer makes your drawing more difficult to understand by someone who is not you. Like I stated previously, if the viewports are on thier own named layer, all you need to do is click on the object and the layer name will explain what that object in your drawing is. If it is a rectangle on the defpoints layer, how do you know what it is? Sure, you can figure it out, but it takes longer to figure it out.How does having the viewports on their own designated named layer tell you what it is? Checking the properties would tell you it is a viewport, unless the viewport is clipped. It will then state that 2 objects are selected.

Using the defpoints layer for boundaries to get areas contradicts the argument of not using the defpoints for anything other than what the software places on it.


Also, what happens when someone decides to freeze the defpoints layer to hide something else that was on that layer (like area boundaries, or whatever)?
That is not necessarily a problem with the drawing but is poor layer management and laziness on the operators part.

So it's not so much "what bad things will happen" as it is "keep your drawing stupid-simple".
I'm all for the simple drawings that anyone can pick up and understand.

Hope that helps your arguement on this. I'm very against the viewports on defpoints dillemma. I deal with it here.It doesn't answer the question of what are the downfalls that may occur by using them? Does the drawing get corrupted? Does the data in the drawing get changed due to using defpoints for other purposes? That is my question. If there is no definitive argument against using defpoints for viewports, such as your drawings and data will become corrupted, then why is it a bad thing? It sounds to me that it is a preference to not put things on that layer instead of a need to reduce corruption within drawings. That's just my 2 cents on the subject. I'm not advocating for or against the use of the defpoints layer for other objects.

Here is a nice little trick to shake things up a bit! If you have an office standard in place, and your office uses a standard template, attach a standards file to the template! Then EVERY time they save the drawing they will get this little "standards violation" notice if they stray from the office standards. Eventually they will get sick of the message and either comply or learn how to disable it. ;-)
Nice tip. ;) You need to make sure they don't disable the warning to make it effective.

[Opie]

Many people have reported problems with dimensions when either 0 or defpoints is disturbed.
I've not had problems - I don't use those layers.
I've known a couple of companies where part of the final check/setup routine was to make 0 current and temporarily freeze all layers with the stated aim that nothing should be visible.
But what are those problems? Were those problems in any recent version of AutoCAD or were they in a version four or more releases ago?

[k.baxter]

My fav. E-mail memo is below.
We were having a problem with people putting old utility alignments to the side and on the defpoints layer. This did cause problems in those files only. We did notice a lag problem, and the occasional unexplained crash. They since have been cleaned and we haven’t noticed any problems. It’s very hard to prove the behaviors are linked, but the coincidence is strong.

The posts I pulled them from are quite dated, but I think the information they held was still valid should you wish to look up my materials.



Posted by: Lampe, Phil E.
Drawing lines and stuff in Defpoints layer

I recently was on the phone with an Autodesk tech rep regarding a
problem, and it came up about creating lines and other features in the
defpoints layer. He said that as a rule, it's not a good idea to draw
anything on the defpoints layer. Also, he said that it's a bad idea to
freeze or turn off the defpoints layer, because it could corrupt the
drawing file.

Any comments on these issues would be appreciated as it will definitely
affect the way we approach the use of the defpoints layer in the future.

Phil
Orange County, CA

Posted below this

Reply From: Kilmer, Eugene N.
Re: Drawing lines and stuff in Defpoints layer
Phil,

Pay heed to the technician's advice. I've heard contrary advice given to
the effect that if you want to draw something but not have it plot, draw it
on the DEFPOINTS layer because one of its constant properties is that
whatever is on it does not plot as a matter of course.

AutoCAD creates that layer when you start adding dimensions to your drawing.
It contains critical information about those dimensions. It was never meant
to be used by the draftsman. If you want to have something visible on the
screen but not visible on paper, freeze or turn off that layer.

--
Eugene N. Kilmer
Owner/Mag Draftin


These posts were pulled from the Autodesk website itself. Please refrain from placing objects on defpoints. If you no longer need information but wish it not to be held within the drawings please archive or other means. Defpoints layer is not a catch all for outdated information. It is a remnant of a required layer created by AutoCAD.

[Opie]

My fav. E-mail memo is below.
We were having a problem with people putting old utility alignments to the side and on the defpoints layer. This did cause problems in those files only. We did notice a lag problem, and the occasional unexplained crash. They since have been cleaned and we haven’t noticed any problems. It’s very hard to prove the behaviors are linked, but the coincidence is strong.

The posts I pulled them from are quite dated, but I think the information they held was still valid should you wish to look up my materials.

Can you replicate the drawing and get the same results? Was the size of the file larger than normal? Did a third party add-on modify the drawing in some way? I've had AutoCAD crashes before with a clean drawing.

Even though the Autodesk technician states it is a bad idea, what are the possible problems from it?

I have dealt with drawings over a period of months to even years that contain objects placed or drawn using the defpoints layer. A small percentage of those drawings have been corrupted. With such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer.

As I have said before, I don't advocate for or against its use for other than what it is supposedly intended for. I am looking for some type of evidence which proves data loss is from this use. Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.

I could tell my kids that same answer to something they don't need to do and the next question would be, "Why?"

[dallredcadman]

In working with drawings that have come from architects and engineers that put things on defpoints and then freeze or turn off that layer. I've always encountered some sort of a problem with the file. Most of the time if it is on defpoints I completely remove it from the layer whether by deleting or by moving to a new layer that has defined properties. It has seemed to solve some not all problems that have been arising with the file. Is there anything besides doing this and then running audit and purge and not putting anything on defpoints that might help in "fixing" or preventing problems from happening?

Thanks Baxter for your research that is definitely going to help calm some of the "cad savvy" engineers that refuse to stay away from defpoints.

[jaberwok]

Can you replicate the drawing and get the same results? Was the size of the file larger than normal? Did a third party add-on modify the drawing in some way? I've had AutoCAD crashes before with a clean drawing.

Even though the Autodesk technician states it is a bad idea, what are the possible problems from it?

I have dealt with drawings over a period of months to even years that contain objects placed or drawn using the defpoints layer. A small percentage of those drawings have been corrupted. With such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer.

As I have said before, I don't advocate for or against its use for other than what it is supposedly intended for. I am looking for some type of evidence which proves data loss is from this use. Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.

I could tell my kids that same answer to something they don't need to do and the next question would be, "Why?"

Brother Richard, I see your point but you yourself say "with such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer" and, in saying that, you acknowledge that such use of defpoints is likely to be a factor. Why take a chance?

[Opie]

Brother Richard, I see your point but you yourself say "with such a small percentage of corruption, I cannot conclusively determine the corruption is from inappropriate uses of the defpoints layer" and, in saying that, you acknowledge that such use of defpoints is likely to be a factor. Why take a chance?
The keyword is conclusively. If the objects on defpoints was a problem, the percentage of corruption should be much larger. There are other factors that could be causing the corruption.

Just saying it is a bad idea doesn't answer the original question.

[k.baxter]

Opie, I feel you have taken a position that you will always have a highly defendable view. This is why I think I’m done reading this thread; no reasonable amount of typing on my end will see this to an agreeable conclusion.



Regarding our files, they were of normal size, they currently are 396KB and may have been double that at a point but still well within the norm for file size. They were created in house from our standard templates using no third party software. We draft straight on 2K6 and 2K5.

I also stated the problems we encountered from this. When we have an increased number of crashes from different users across the office I can only draw concussions using the available information. The only constant in the whole set of events, is that job. Only after removing the items and creating new files are our problems gone.

Back to where you stand, anyone who presents a different idea has the problem of reproducibility. Simple fact; No I can’t reproduce it, nor do I have the ambition to do so, so yes I can’t “conclusively” prove this theory. But why beat your head on a wall with future problems when you could simply type LAYER, can create a new one?

[TerribleTim]

. . . But why beat your head on a wall with future problems when you could simply type LAYER, and create a new one?
Right! I totaly agree. Put your viewports on a "viewport" layer. And to Opie, it makes it easier to understand because you can simply select the viewport goemetry and then. . .look up to the layers toolbar! Wow, it will read "viewport" or whatever you named your "viewport layer! Let's see, that's 1 click, and 1 look, and you know what it is! You said use the "properties" to see if it's a viewport. So that's, select geometry, open properties, pull down filter list, look at what it is. That's 3 clicks, and lots of focus, sounds slower to me. Seems to defeate the "stupid-simple" theory.

P.S. - small disclaimer time! Don't take this as a personal attack or bashing in ANY way!

[Terry Cadd]

I have always been told not to put anything but notes on the defpoint layer but where i work there is a lot of people that like to put Viewports on Defpoints. My understanding behind not putting a viewport on Defpoints is for the simple matter of possibly wanting the viewport to show and for easier manipulation in layer control. Is there any other reason besides that?
Thanks
I feel that AutoCAD should have created the mview object on a non-printing layer such as Defpoints by default. The reasoning behind this, is that it does not plot if it’s on layer Defpoints. You can batch plot a set of drawings in a folder from any outside firm, without having to go into each drawing and turn off the layers that they created the mviews on. Which as you know, it’s possible to create mviews in one layout alone, on several layers. Not a good idea for plotting. This is my opinion, and I feel that Autodesk should have addressed this in AutoCAD 2000.

[TerribleTim]

I feel that AutoCAD should have created the mview object on a non-printing layer such as Defpoints by default. . . .from any outside firm, without having to go into each drawing and turn off the layers that they created the mviews on. . .
I get what you are saying, but there are some firms that want the viewport plotted to have a border around the drawing. Don't ask why, they just do.

[Terry Cadd]

This topic has caused some headaches here at work. We had a few outsourced projects that we ended up finishing up. When the drawings came back, it was no telling what layers they used for mviews. Our Drafting Manager made a call to create all mviews on layer Defpoints and define the color of Defpoints as dark grey so if it’s on, it doesn’t stand out. When we outsource projects, he lets them know what he expects. Since then, everyone hasn’t thought about it too much. It works for us and we’re ok with it.

P.S. Per your last post: Couldn’t you just draw a rectangle to please them?

[dallredcadman]

Do you draft ALL of your drawings on your own or do you receive some of your backgrounds from others? If you are the original person drawing on defpoints at least from what I've noticed since posting and thinking back to when I was an intern for an architect when we have been the ones to put stuff on defpoints we have not had a problem but when we have been the person to receive drawings with things on defpoints we have had problems from CAD crashing to unexpected results of not being able to select defpoints to removed them unless we use qselect.

If you are doing a presentation a plain old normal viewport of a rectangle isn't that appealing if you make your viewport bordered and it is a circle or a polyline that is a different shape to draw attention to a part of the project and is set to plot it begins to stand out and draw attention to your drawings. And yes you could just draw a circle or something else but then wouldn't you have to draw it twice and be ineffective in your work just because you want it to be on defpoints? never mind that there is a possibility that somebody later on down the line gets semi corrupt files because something is on defpoints (a.k.a. me).

[jgratton]

Other than stating that using defpoints is not a good idea, what kind of problems will occur? Many people state this is a bad idea to use the layers the software creates.

We all use layer 0. Isn't it a layer created and required by the software?

Instead of what everyone else is saying about using these software created layers, what are the downfalls that may occur by using them?

We use third party software that turns defpoints layer off at times, because they use it for their attribute blocks. Without debating the merits of that decision (it is what it is), if I were to use it for my own purposes and the program crashed in the middle of something , I may create more problems for myself other than the ones the third party is creating for me.

[jaberwok]

What is an "Mview" ?
Mview is a command not an object type.

[jgratton]

What is an "Mview" ?
Mview is a command not an object type.

Yes, but we know he meant viewport. And I agree with the rest of his statemwnt.

[Mamma Jamma]

Yes, I use the Defpoints layer, but not for viewports. For viewports, we have a layer which, in addition to being non-plot and/or frozen for good measure, we also prefer to set to color 255 (the palest of the greys), just in case. (Our pen settings have the greys plot as what they are, from darkest to lightest, so 255 is essentially invisible).
I use the Defpoints layer, set to a funky color that we use for little else, to outline the area in the model that is showing in the viewport, so I can see my "work" space. I've never run into a problem doing this, and by putting these rectangles and, sometimes a few other things (simple notes to coworkers like "Touch this and die, sucker") on Defpoints - the original non-plot layer - I'm guaranteed they will not plot, regardless of who manipulates the layer settings.
I do this only on pretty simple P&IDs using vanilla AutoCAD. Small files, nothing fancy. Maybe that makes a difference.

[Capt. Computer Crasher]

I get what you are saying, but there are some firms that want the viewport plotted to have a border around the drawing. Don't ask why, they just do.

Sometimes I need it on some times off, but I have a "viewport" layer I put all viewports on that way I can make it plotable or non-plotable plus anybody who accesses the drawing can reason viewport layer must contain viewports. if it on the defpoints layer I think that layer is for points that I don't want plotted. Thats why we can name layers so we can communicate to others in a way. Microstation did not have this ability for a long time.It used only numbers. You had to guess what was on each level (layer). AutoCAD has always had that ability.

[Capt. Computer Crasher]

Right! I totaly agree. Put your viewports on a "viewport" layer. And to Opie, it makes it easier to understand because you can simply select the viewport goemetry and then. . .look up to the layers toolbar! Wow, it will read "viewport" or whatever you named your "viewport layer! Let's see, that's 1 click, and 1 look, and you know what it is! You said use the "properties" to see if it's a viewport. So that's, select geometry, open properties, pull down filter list, look at what it is. That's 3 clicks, and lots of focus, sounds slower to me. Seems to defeate the "stupid-simple" theory.

P.S. - small disclaimer time! Don't take this as a personal attack or bashing in ANY way!

Sorry I did not get to this post before I posted mine.I fully agree

[Hammer.John.J]

rediculous

i've used defpoints since version 13 for viewports on thousands of drawings from softdesk to eagle point to ldt to vanilla cad and NEVER had a problem.

defpoints is a noplot layer created by autodesk for points created by dimensions back when they were exploded and not dynamic. If someone can prove that this layer holds some magical information then i'll buy that, but otherwise, this is just a bunch of b.s.

if it was anything other than that, it would be in every single drawing like layer 0.

layer 0 was used for blocks and attributes. you put info on layer 0 in a block and it takes on properties of the layer you drop it on.

we use defpoints most of our non plotting information including viewports and IT WORKS GREAT!

[BrenBren]

rediculous

i've used defpoints since version 13 for viewports on thousands of drawings from softdesk to eagle point to ldt to vanilla cad and NEVER had a problem.

defpoints is a noplot layer created by autodesk for points created by dimensions back when they were exploded and not dynamic. If someone can prove that this layer holds some magical information then i'll buy that, but otherwise, this is just a bunch of b.s.

if it was anything other than that, it would be in every single drawing like layer 0.

layer 0 was used for blocks and attributes. you put info on layer 0 in a block and it takes on properties of the layer you drop it on.

we use defpoints most of our non plotting information including viewports and IT WORKS GREAT!

I guess the only real problem I have with defpoints is that if you have all this text or whatever on defpoints, and you want to delete it, the easiest way would be to isolate that layer, correct? Well, if it's on defpoints you have to have layer 0 turned on as well, which, if you have anything else on layer 0, you can't simply isolate one layer, select everything and delete it.

That's the main reason I use a separate layer for non-plotting items.

[Hammer.John.J]

why not just leave all the layers on, qselect by defpoints layer and then delete. If it isn't on defpoints or part of something on defpoints it won't be deleted.

Qselect is great for this kind of stuff.

[BrenBren]

why not just leave all the layers on, qselect by defpoints layer and then delete. If it isn't on defpoints or part of something on defpoints it won't be deleted.

Qselect is great for this kind of stuff.

~shrug~

IMHO, it's quicker to isolate a layer than to use Qselect for something like this, but it would work.

[Hammer.John.J]

doesn't seem like it would be quicker if you have to isolate layer 0 and defpoints knowing that you only want to delete objects on 1 layer, yet you need to stay on.

the pain to select stuff on one layer and not the other alone is reason enough to qselect IN THIS case.

[BrenBren]

doesn't seem like it would be quicker if you have to isolate layer 0 and defpoints knowing that you only want to delete objects on 1 layer, yet you need to stay on.

the pain to select stuff on one layer and not the other alone is reason enough to qselect IN THIS case.


I'm not going to continue arguing a point with you. I stated that I would rather use a non-plotting layer than defpoints, which means I would only have to isolate one layer, and delete stuff that way. I find that to be quicker. You may not. That's fine. Do things the way you choose.

However, do not come in here and say that people answering questions are ridiculous, and that the answers they are giving are BS.

[Hammer.John.J]

I guess the only real problem I have with defpoints is that if you have all this text or whatever on defpoints, and you want to delete it, the easiest way would be to isolate that layer, correct? Well, if it's on defpoints you have to have layer 0 turned on as well, which, if you have anything else on layer 0, you can't simply isolate one layer, select everything and delete it.

That's the main reason I use a separate layer for non-plotting items.

pretty sure you said you can't simply isolate one layer, but anyways.....

You're right it isn't b.s., my bad, it's a post of opinions and no facts. Has anybody answered opie? not 1 person providing any evidence that using defpoints causes fatal errors with drawings or any other problems, other than unsupported testimony.

I'm not arguing with you, i'm agreeing with you that you can't just freeze defpoints to delete stuff on defpoints, but there are astronomically faster ways to delete objects on layers, WHEN the objects are on several layers. That is fact, not opinion.

If you prefer to delete objects by layer isolate, hey great but that isn't a programming or technical flaw with using defpoints. It's an opinion, based on justifying the way you select objects.

You're right, it isn't b.s. it's a bunch of opinions.

And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. People are trying to say defpoints shouldn't be use but no one knows exactly why?

so what if they don't automatically create defpoints in 2012.... you can make it yourself, like any other layer. For now it is just 1 less layer you need to make, and then be sure that it never gets accidentally changed to plotting layer.

FACT:
if you draft on defpoints, it will not plot in any version of CAD, to date.

FACT:
Any layer excluding layer 0 and defpoints can be change to a plotting layer. And layer standards can be over wrote.

[Shinyhead]

OK, not to pour gasoline, thats not my intention. BUT, there is one issue I can think of, due to the odd relationship between zero and defpoints, if you turn off the zero layer, anything on the defpoints layer cannot be selected. You can see it, but you cannot select it. It is one of those really rare situations that a newbie drafter will often waste an incredible amount of time on. By avoiding using those two layers, we have almost never had an issue like that. (block are done on zero layer, thats all).

Our viewport layer naming convention is pretty hard too. its called "VIEWPORTS" and its set to noplot.

sorry, the other names for that layer made me laugh for some reason. :p

[H-Angus]

Here's some info from Autodesk which may help you make a decision on how you want to do things: Make of it what you will.

Creating Your Own Non-Platting Layers Instead of Using Defpoints ID: TP00113 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=3268084&linkID=9240615)

Freezing Defpoint ID: TS1055486 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=7300121&linkID=9240617)

Objects on Defpoints Layer ID: TS22682 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=2898250&linkID=9240617)

Point objects not affected by PDMODE and PDSIZE variables ID: TS1065826 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=8781968&linkID=9240617)

Unable to select a viewport ID: TS1058464 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=7601783&linkID=9240657)

The above links refer to specific releases of Autocad (which is stated in each link) and if you are using earlier versions such as R14, 2000, 2002 etc then I would suggest you take a little extra time to search through the Autodesk Knowledge Base as there are quite a few other issues relating to the defpoints layer for these earlier releases.

I hope the above helps a little, enjoy.

[dgorsman]

...And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is...

You may want to check the posting rules.

[gfreddog]

You're right, it isn't b.s. it's a bunch of opinions.

And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is.



http://forums.augi.com/faq.php?faq=vb_augi#faq_vb_augi_donts

Do not mistake our Forums for your personal soap box. The Forums are designed as a communication tool to assist our members in solving problems and becoming more productive in their use of Autodesk products.

[jaberwok]

if it was anything other than that, it would be in every single drawing like layer 0.


It IS in every drawing that contains even one associative dimension.

[Opie]

It IS in every drawing that contains even one associative dimension.
Unless you rename the layer and delete it. :P

[irneb]

Well .... I'm not sure about renaming & deleting Defpoints - I haven't even tried that, and I'm not willing to stick my finger into that particular socket. But the way I understand this, here's the reasons for NOT putting ANYTHING on Defpoints (not just Viewports):

1. AUDIT moves everything (which is not a dim definition point) off the Defpoints into an $AUDIT_BAD_LAYER. So now your Viewports are moved onto something else, without your knowledge.
2. Defpoints (as well as 0) works differently when XRefs are involved. There's no XRef specific layer for these - they're either on or off throughout the containing & xrefed dwgs.
3. PDMODE & PDSIZE has no effect on points placed on the Defpoints layer.
4. If anything (and this I have personal experience of) is placed on the Defponts layer ... AND you've got Layer 0 frozen, you can't select those things on Defpoints. They appear, but you can only select them with the ALL option then deselect everything else. And I have had a situation where AC got a little confused & didn't even allow me to select after I thawed Layer 0.

Further to the above AutoDesk recomendations. It depends on your layer standards, you should try to stick to something (at least company wide). So if you decide to use Defpoints (or not), then EVERYONE (in your company) must do the same (preferably all other consultants you work with as well - good luck trying to get that right). To me the major reason for this is: "You won't get nasty surprises, because you froze / thaw a layer and something unexpected happens".

[Mamma Jamma]

1. AUDIT moves everything (which is not a dim definition point) off the Defpoints into an $AUDIT_BAD_LAYER. So now your Viewports are moved onto something else, without your knowledge.


I have used Defpoints on many drawings, and I use Audit at some point on every drawing. I've never had this happen.

[jaberwok]

Unless you rename the layer and delete it. :P

(if) you say so.

:scratchhead:

but why would you?

[Opie]

To me the major reason for this is: "You won't get nasty surprises, because you froze / thaw a layer and something unexpected happens".

If you know it happens, then how can it be unexpected? :confused:

[Opie]

I have used Defpoints on many drawings, and I use Audit at some point on every drawing. I've never had this happen.
I agree. I have not experienced this.

[Opie]

(if) you say so.

:scratchhead:

but why would you?
Just pointing out that it can be done. ;)

[RobertB]

The real reason to not use DefPoints is because it surrenders control of the visibilty of viewports for no good reason. As a consultant, I cannot count the number of times we've received drawings that were polluted with objects on DefPoints.

At the heart of the issue is that there can only be one DefPoints layer, no matter how many XRefs there are. So if John Doe puts a bunch of stuff on DefPoints, there is no way to control the visibilty of John Doe's stuff. There is only one DefPoints.

Do your consultants and clients a favor, and don't use DefPoints for anything.

[H-Angus]

Here's some info from Autodesk which may help you make a decision on how you want to do things: Make of it what you will.

Creating Your Own Non-Platting Layers Instead of Using Defpoints ID: TP00113 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=3268084&linkID=9240615)

Freezing Defpoint ID: TS1055486 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=7300121&linkID=9240617)

Objects on Defpoints Layer ID: TS22682 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=2898250&linkID=9240617)

Point objects not affected by PDMODE and PDSIZE variables ID: TS1065826 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=8781968&linkID=9240617)

Unable to select a viewport ID: TS1058464 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/item?siteID=123112&id=7601783&linkID=9240657)

The above links refer to specific releases of Autocad (which is stated in each link) and if you are using earlier versions such as R14, 2000, 2002 etc then I would suggest you take a little extra time to search through the Autodesk Knowledge Base as there are quite a few other issues relating to the defpoints layer for these earlier releases.

I hope the above helps a little, enjoy.

A little deja vu :roll:


Well .... I'm not sure about renaming & deleting Defpoints - I haven't even tried that, and I'm not willing to stick my finger into that particular socket. But the way I understand this, here's the reasons for NOT putting ANYTHING on Defpoints (not just Viewports):

1. AUDIT moves everything (which is not a dim definition point) off the Defpoints into an $AUDIT_BAD_LAYER. So now your Viewports are moved onto something else, without your knowledge.
2. Defpoints (as well as 0) works differently when XRefs are involved. There's no XRef specific layer for these - they're either on or off throughout the containing & xrefed dwgs.
3. PDMODE & PDSIZE has no effect on points placed on the Defpoints layer.
4. If anything (and this I have personal experience of) is placed on the Defponts layer ... AND you've got Layer 0 frozen, you can't select those things on Defpoints. They appear, but you can only select them with the ALL option then deselect everything else. And I have had a situation where AC got a little confused & didn't even allow me to select after I thawed Layer 0.

Further to the above AutoDesk recomendations. It depends on your layer standards, you should try to stick to something (at least company wide). So if you decide to use Defpoints (or not), then EVERYONE (in your company) must do the same (preferably all other consultants you work with as well - good luck trying to get that right). To me the major reason for this is: "You won't get nasty surprises, because you froze / thaw a layer and something unexpected happens".

[Kevin.Sturmer]

Unless you rename the layer and delete it. :P

Defpoints also is deleted if you purge a DWG, too.

There are people I have worked with who prefer to use Defpoints as their current layer. I can't tell you the number of times I have had to explain why their newly attached xrefs were not printing out even though you could see them on the screen!

[k.baxter]

I can't tell you the number of times I have had to explain why their newly attached xrefs were not printing out even though you could see them on the screen!

I can't even begin to understand why I still have to show people why any thing wont print when its on a no print layer. Its not a big secret I am keep from everyone.

If it has a little icon with a red stripe, then you wont see it on paper.....OK?

[Mamma Jamma]

Defpoints also is deleted if you purge a DWG, too.
I can't tell you the number of times I have had to explain why their newly attached xrefs were not printing out even though you could see them on the screen!

This happens when the xref (or anything) is put on ANY non-plot layer. It's not exclusive to Defpoints. And I can't tell you the number of times that I've had to trouble shoot the same guy's drawings for him and that was the answer to the big mystery...:banghead: Yet again...

[jaberwok]

This happens when the xref (or anything) is put on ANY non-plot layer. It's not exclusive to Defpoints. And I can't tell you the number of times that I've had to trouble shoot the same guy's drawings for him and that was the answer to the big mystery...:banghead: Yet again...

and then you need to explain why the xref doesn't plot and the viewport boundary doesn't plot but the content of the viewport does plot.

[Mamma Jamma]

I could explain things to this guy til I'm blue in the face. Honestly? Sometimes I wonder whose brain he uses for breathing. But that's for a different thread...

[ameador]

Ah, I feel ya'll's pain.
I remember reading/hearing the philosophy that defpoints was originally created to house only the nodes for dims. It has been abused beyond belief over the yrs. I am trying to get my users to stop putting stuff on defpoints and to place it on the -nplt layers.

I am continually amazed at getting the "where'd my xref go" question atleast once every 2 wks. Checking the layer that it's on is the first thing I would do...oh well. They are supposed to place all xrefs on the magic "0" layer...I want to know why people are making the defpoints layer current all the time.

Wish I had found this section of AUGI earlier! :)
'Course I just recently officially got the title of CAD Manager.

[jsn90763]

Just to throw my $0.98 ($0.02 after inflation) into the mix. . .

I agree with Ted, the defpoints layer viewport theory is from releases that had no "no-plot" layer feature. Build your own layer for your viewports, call it, oh I don't know, "g-vprt" or something like that. (mine is "cad-model-vprt) Make it "no-plot" and give it the most odd-ball color you can that matches NOTHING else. Makes it easy to understand when you see it in a drawing and more important, easy when someone outside your firm sees it. Imagine if you could just click on the object in question in ANY drawing and understand what it is by the layer name of the layer it is on!
I don't agree with you, so you want to create a layer for view ports; no printing text, and for areas that you don't want any equipment place there at is 3 extra layer that you have to have and 3 layers that a new person coming in to you company has to learn where defpionts will do all 3 and you don't end up with with 1000 of layers in your drawing,

all you are doing is creating more work for yourself and more hart ache.

Layer 0 is a you use to creat block where you can have the same block on diffrent layers like a part layer and hidden layer in the same drawing.

[Dave F.]

Yes, I use the Defpoints layer, but not for viewports. For viewports, we have a layer which, in addition to being non-plot and/or frozen for good measure, we also prefer to set to color 255 (the palest of the greys), just in case. (Our pen settings have the greys plot as what they are, from darkest to lightest, so 255 is essentially invisible).
I use the Defpoints layer, set to a funky color that we use for little else, to outline the area in the model that is showing in the viewport, so I can see my "work" space. I've never run into a problem doing this, and by putting these rectangles and, sometimes a few other things (simple notes to coworkers like "Touch this and die, sucker") on Defpoints - the original non-plot layer - I'm guaranteed they will not plot, regardless of who manipulates the layer settings.
I do this only on pretty simple P&IDs using vanilla AutoCAD. Small files, nothing fancy. Maybe that makes a difference.

Why not draw the "work" space rectangle on your viewport layer?

The reason I avoid defpoints is if you freeze layer 0, anything on defpoints is visible but non selectable. Not sure why.

[Dave F.]

http://forums.augi.com/faq.php?faq=vb_augi#faq_vb_augi_donts

Do not mistake our Forums for your personal soap box. The Forums are designed as a communication tool to assist our members in solving problems and becoming more productive in their use of Autodesk products.

03xtreme was not soap boxing.
He said that it was ridiculous that posters were claiming it was bad to use Defpoints, yet they gave no substantive evidence. Which it is.

It is these posters that are not "assisting our members to solve problems", just giving unsubstantiated opinions.

Out of curiosity, is your footer an attempted pun attack on Communism? (Putin/Red?). Or do you just need spelling lessons?

[tedg]

I don't agree with you, so you want to create a layer for view ports; no printing text, and for areas that you don't want any equipment place there at is 3 extra layer that you have to have and 3 layers that a new person coming in to you company has to learn where defpionts will do all 3 and you don't end up with with 1000 of layers in your drawing,

all you are doing is creating more work for yourself and more hart ache.

Layer 0 is a you use to creat block where you can have the same block on diffrent layers like a part layer and hidden layer in the same drawing.

I think you'll find it depends on companies' cadd standards.
If people were left to do whatever they wanted, you'll get all kinds of scenarios.
That's why you have company standards and train the new people "coming in" so everyone's on the same page.

For me and the company I work for, we create layers for these situations and leave defpoints alone, but that's just us.


I've seen that done allot, it ensures that the viewport will not be accidently plotted.

I think it goes back to earlier releases where you couldn't assign "no plot" to a layer, and was just carried forward. So the viewports could be seen and manipulated and left "on" when plotting.

We have a "no plot" layer for viewports called GI-VPRT that can be accidently left on and won't plot or could be frozen if you wanted.

*edit* I was just stating "why not create a layer for the purpose..." if you already have a structured cadd standard anyway.



As far as I know there's no harm in using the defpoints layer for viewports but others may disagree. But if you have the ability to have an assigned layer for viewports that match your layer naming convention, why not have one?

I don't have any "proof" you shouldn't use the defpoints layer for viewports, it's just my opinion that you shouldn't. Just like when people have the opinion that you shouldn't place custom lisp routines (and other files) in the Acad\Support directory. Can you do it, yes, but do you want people who may not know what they're doing messing around in there?

:beer:

[gfreddog]

03xtreme was not soap boxing.
He said that it was ridiculous that posters were claiming it was bad to use Defpoints, yet they gave no substantive evidence. Which it is.

It is these posters that are not "assisting our members to solve problems", just giving unsubstantiated opinions.

Out of curiosity, is your footer an attempted pun attack on Communism? (Putin/Red?). Or do you just need spelling lessons?

Actually he said "And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. " and in that post and others he went on to attack posters opinions as stupid or ridiculous.

That goes against the spirit of these forums and does not comply with the forum rules. We can all agree to disagree but name calling is uncalled for.

As for your misreading of my signature I leave that to your imagination but you are off base on both accounts.

[Dave F.]

Actually he said "And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. " and in that post and others he went on to attack posters opinions as stupid or ridiculous.

That goes against the spirit of these forums and does not comply with the forum rules. We can all agree to disagree but name calling is uncalled for.

As for your misreading of my signature I leave that to your imagination but you are off base on both accounts.

He retracted the b.s. comment.

There's nothing wrong with saying "And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. " It was his opinion, which fits in very well with what others have given - their opinion. No facts, just opinions.

Sorry, I can't see where he called someone stupid or ridiculous. Which post?
In fact I can only see where he agreed & helped.

Some people have given disinformation on the thread. Surely that's against the rules?

[gfreddog]

rediculous

i've used defpoints since version 13 for viewports on thousands of drawings from softdesk to eagle point to ldt to vanilla cad and NEVER had a problem.

defpoints is a noplot layer created by autodesk for points created by dimensions back when they were exploded and not dynamic. If someone can prove that this layer holds some magical information then i'll buy that, but otherwise, this is just a bunch of b.s.
!


pretty sure you said you can't simply isolate one layer, but anyways.....

You're right it isn't b.s., my bad, it's a post of opinions and no facts. Has anybody answered opie? not 1 person providing any evidence that using defpoints causes fatal errors with drawings or any other problems, other than unsupported testimony.

I'm not arguing with you, i'm agreeing with you that you can't just freeze defpoints to delete stuff on defpoints, but there are astronomically faster ways to delete objects on layers, WHEN the objects are on several layers. That is fact, not opinion.

If you prefer to delete objects by layer isolate, hey great but that isn't a programming or technical flaw with using defpoints. It's an opinion, based on justifying the way you select objects.

You're right, it isn't b.s. it's a bunch of opinions.

And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. People are trying to say defpoints shouldn't be use but no one knows exactly why?

so what if they don't automatically create defpoints in 2012.... you can make it yourself, like any other layer. For now it is just 1 less layer you need to make, and then be sure that it never gets accidentally changed to plotting layer.

FACT:
if you draft on defpoints, it will not plot in any version of CAD, to date.

FACT:
Any layer excluding layer 0 and defpoints can be change to a plotting layer. And layer standards can be over wrote.


He retracted the b.s. comment.

There's nothing wrong with saying "And i can come in here a say this is rediculous, because it is. " It was his opinion, which fits in very well with what others have given - their opinion. No facts, just opinions.

Sorry, I can't see where he called someone stupid or ridiculous. Which post?
In fact I can only see where he agreed & helped.

Some people have given disinformation on the thread. Surely that's against the rules?


"disinformation" really? Or just varying opinions that are different from your own?

Some of his oringal posts seem to be removed but regardless confrontational posts help no one and calling a fellow poster's opinion BS or Ridiculous is always uncalled for.

It's called respect and as I respect your concept of the conversation from back in September I will respectfully disagree with your findings and leave it at that.

Have a happy Monday :beer::beer::beer: