2d vs. information organization / componets

[fstafek]

Hello everybody,
I'm trying to dive into REVIT usage and one thing is not clear to me, how to organize 2d line work information / components in project.
When I have to place some information in plan/section etc. that I don't need to model in 3d. That is it would be great overhead to model it in 3d or as a family.

I know I can use model /detail lines, but what I'm missing is how to store 2d line work in same "(sub)category" as component.

example:

We are doing a lot of residential buildings. We design apartment along with hypothetical kitchen nook. It is nonsense or even impossible to model kitchen nook as a family, but what you certainly use are the components as stove, sink, fridge etc. this goes all in plumbing fixtures to my understanding. But the desk... we always draw in Autocad as lines. Because there are so many possibilities of them that it is not worth or even possible to make any family for it. There are different possible angles of "flights", especially in our last project, which has quite nonrectangular layout. And we are not kitchen designers here, this is all we need to place in plan, just these lines.So here are possible approaches I've tried so far, but none of them I'm satisfied with and I'm curious if I'm missing some REVIT functionality / concept:

1) model lines, detail lines + components.
To be able to switch on and of the kitchen nooks you have to create subcategory for a] model b] detail lines c] in family category. then switch them on / of in visibility graphics.ugh. quite complicated, and time consuming as well, because turning on/off categories takes on my project quite long. Usually I have to wait 3-4 seconds. (vs. almost no time in Autocad, when switching layer).

2) make in/place family e.g. for whole floor in subcategory same as components.
Well works quite well, but it takes quite long time to enter into edit mode end exit. you can't copy/paste between project and family. whenever you move some walls either kitchen doesn't move along because you didn't do well constraints to other elements (move with nearby elements option doesn't work for me always) or something the constraints are often done in wrong not intended way, anyway you have to enter the edit mode. time goes on, just for simple move of wall. copying of in/place family in groups doesn't seem to be without problems neither.

3) line based family. OK I thought this would be the "Revit way". I've created line based family which is composed of... well just one symbolic line placed on the reference line.
Symbolic lines are in desired subcategory, same as components. But I'm experiencing problems with line based family:
- it is quite unresponsive (as opposed to normal detail/model line, not even mentioning line in autocad)
- it snaps wrong. when I snap end, it offsets several millimeters from the snapped point. probably some great intelligence here intended, but just doesn't work. I have to manually rearrange end points so that it is OK. (everything just for these 3 - 4 lines of kitchen nook)

I would greatly appreciate any suggestions, as I'm really trying to find work flow which is the right "revit" way.

This is not related only to kitchens, there are just lot of information we usually in autocad stored in layers, but the "subcategory" concept is not possible to embrace. What about dimensions - there simply just is not only one factory "category" of dimensions in our live here:-) And there are lot of them just only for kitchen nooks:-) I know that it is just other way here, but please help me to find this other way....

Best regards Frantisek Stafek.

PS. I'm attaching screenshot of one of kitchens, to get the idea.

[twiceroadsfool]

I would focus your efforts on families, personally. That doesnt mean they have to be 3D families, though.

So you have an irregluar shaped desk. File > New > Family > Furniture tempate. Draft the 5 lines you want in your plan, and load it in. You get miles out of it being a family, just from having done this. You can move it as one unit (a lot of groups in the project will slow it dow, so i wouldnt group detail lines, personally). You can shut it off under furniture, and it has PROPERTIES, which (down the road) is a huge saver.

In Place families wouldnt be my first choice either, as they also (in my experience) can slow a model down over time. Plus, if you have time to inplace it, might as well make it a family an use it again somewhere else, lol.



We have people in our office who say the same thing: "I dont have time to model the column, i just want to draft in a circle!" Well, fine... But draft the circle IN the "column family template" and it cn behave like a column, and get controlled with other columns...

[DaveP]

I know it seems like a lot of work to create all those families in 3D, but some day, you'll be glad you did.
I just got a call from someone yesterday. A few weeks ago, they told me they "didn't have time" to model some casework & just drew it as lines. This week, they called back & asked "Why can't I see my casework in the Elevation?"
The more you use Revit, the more you'll find out just how handy it is to cut a quick section or shoot an elevation. Not to mention impressing the client with a 3D View that you just whipped out.
The truly custom (non-rectangular, curved) desks may not be possible, but the two counter-tops in your image would be a piece of cake. Remember, in Revit they are parametric, so if you build it right, those two counter tops could be used in any configuration & any size. One rectangular counter top is all you need not matter the width, depth or height. Each of the dimensions if just a parameter.

Good luck

[comhasse]

And, if you have simple orthogonal shapes (say an L-shaped) countertop. Just add a couple of dimensions to your family, quickly create and assign some instance parameters and you'll get a completely flexible 2d-family whose dimensions you can adjust on the fly. Once you get the hang of it, it really only takes seconds to create a simple family like that.

[fstafek]

And, if you have simple orthogonal shapes (say an L-shaped) countertop.

Thanks a lot for everybody for reply and support!

Well my current floor plan (apartment house / 150 units) has about 70% of regular shapes kitchen nooks, each different setup. I'll definitely try family approach for these. This is certainly the 4th way I'll try now.

But what about these 30%? Each one type family? it is probably true, that it doesn't matter if it is in/place or not / as for time, the Revit is almost same "responsive" this way:-) But what about the angle? Whenever it changes I'll have to first dimension the angle between the walls in design file, then enter measured angle into family instance parameter? Huh. I'm really trying to get here the benefits over our current workflow in autocad. Even in Revit plain 2d - compare it to line-work, maybe even constrained to model elements...

I just want to state once more clearly: I really (and I mean it) won't never want to schedule these kitchen nooks:-) I really don't care if they appear or not in other sections views, believe me this one please:-)

I've considered also the "workset" way of doing it. But will it work for dwg export? Because this is one of the important things to us to sort the Revit information into autocad layers after export as we do a lot of cooperation with specialists and the design changes a lot, so we can't fiddle with every exported file to isolate the needed...

Once more thanks for tips,
regards Frantisek Stafek.

[twiceroadsfool]

FYI- Lines (detail lines) belong to the view they are in, and not to a "workset" as you are thinking. Their workset IS the view.

Even if 70% of your kitchesn were made out of family elements, with the lines drafted int he family, i bet youd get considerably better performance from the model. I personally would still make the other 30% families, but i guess 30% in-place families is better than 100%, lol.

Then again, if it were me, and i did a LOT of those kinds of buildings... Id have the kitchen stuff modeled anyway. But thats just me. :)

[fstafek]

FYI- Lines (detail lines) belong to the view they are in, and not to a "workset" as you are thinking. Their workset IS the view.

Yes. this would maybe work only with model lines.

Thanks once for tip, I've managed so far to recreate almost all of the rectangular ones, and definitely its at least more fun:-) But what about the angled ones - is there any way to "align" family reference planes with some instance parameter angle to project geometry? Or I'm condemned to either create each flight of kitchen as one component or to manually enter the angle? Should I use in this case reference planes in family or reference lines?

Screenshot of some example non rectangular kitchens attached.

Regards Frantisek Stafek

[dbaldacchino]

Use reference lines when you want to adjust the rotation of objects, such as the end of a counter or the angle it miters into another one.

[fstafek]

Use reference lines when you want to adjust the rotation of objects, such as the end of a counter or the angle it miters into another one.

I wasn't able to "align/lock" ref. lines in family to ref. planes in project. Ref. lines had instance parameter for angle and the only way how to change instance angle parameter was to manually enter it in properties of instance. Is this the way it just goes, or am I something missing here...

Frantisek Stafek