Keynoting: Good or Bad?

[SalubraSubaru]

I've just begun attempting Keynoting in Revit.

To me this seems like it could be a great tool.
In fact, I think this could be THE single most important feature in Revit.
I'm sure everyone has spent hours upon hours changing the same note on multiple sheets and multiple views.

I've done some research on the subject and asked a few of my fellow colleagues their view on keynoting. And so far I haven't recieved a strong yes you should use this feature.
I've had a Revit Training group even say "don't use them".
I have found that the setup is slightly cumbersome but definately doable, but the actual tagging of materials has proven to be somewhat difficult. The fact that you can't rearrange the leader arrow, seems a bit odd.

So is the general consensus out there a yes or no on keynoting?

[Mr Spot]

Who doesn't like keynoting?! Its great. I wouldn't say its cumbersome to setup. Just add the elements to your keynote text file and then keynote tag and element and pick the appropriate keynote to apply.

Leaders in general are a bit limited in revit but not to the point where it makes the tool useless.

My 2 cents.

[SalubraSubaru]

Leaders in general are a bit limited in revit but not to the point where it makes the tool useless.

My 2 cents.

Well, specifically I was trying to tag a material, and it decided to place the end of the leader in a location on the material off the page and I wasn't able to move the leader to an area where it could be viewed appropriately. Have you had any difficulty with this and if so how have you managed it?

Thanks!

[Mr Spot]

You have the option to have a free end or attached end for your leader.

Free end allows you to position the arrow head wherever you want...

[SalubraSubaru]

ahhh....that helps so much! Thanks.

I have a couple more things on keynoting:
I've been told that if you really don't know what you are doing with keynotes and you set them up improperly you can really screw up your project, is this true?
Also, I have a minor question: what is the difference between tag by "material", "element", and "user"?

[ws]

dgcad has some video tutorials on keynoting - I think some are free

http://www.dgcad.com

[SalubraSubaru]

I've actually stumbled upon that website, but unfortunately everything that I need to know is not free.

[ws]

Umm, well - FWIW I've just renewed my subscription for another 3 months.

You can download (if your broadband account will stand it - I do it at evenings and weekends) all the clips, as well as watching them in streaming video. There seems to be an offer for a complete DVD plus a year's sub at the moment.

Seems very good value to me - compared to the $6,000+ it cost me to buy Revit in the first place.

I've learnt loads of stuff from DG's videos and they repay watching again once you have progressed a bit with Revit.

I guess DG lets you see a few useful tutorials to tempt you to subscribe - and it seems to work ;)

[SalubraSubaru]

thanks! I'll look into it.

[Brockway]

what is the difference between tag by "material", "element", and "user"?
Using a wall as an example: Material will tag the individual materials in a given family (drywall, sheathing, stud, exterior finish, etc). Element will tag the entire wall as a whole (assembly note). User allows for any note to be placed on any item (sort of a custom tag).

[SalubraSubaru]

That makes sense.
Thanks Brockway!

[Brian Myers]

Anything you find useful isn't bad, so if you like it then that is what matters! That being said, I enjoy the IDEA of keynoting, but it's just never felt intuitive to me. I'd like something somehow a bit more streamlined and not reliant on a text file. I suppose it just feels like a bit more thought/programming could be put into it.... but that's just my own opinion. I'm always glad to hear when someone is able to use/enjoy a feature as it was intended. :beer:

[rjcrowther]

Anything you find useful isn't bad, so if you like it then that is what matters! That being said, I enjoy the IDEA of keynoting, but it's just never felt intuitive to me. I'd like something somehow a bit more streamlined and not reliant on a text file. I suppose it just feels like a bit more thought/programming could be put into it.... but that's just my own opinion. I'm always glad to hear when someone is able to use/enjoy a feature as it was intended. :beer:
You're not alone with those thoughts Brian. It seems like a really good feature - for me it just doesn't seem to quite be there yet.

Rob

[SalubraSubaru]

It seems like a really good feature - for me it just doesn't seem to quite be there yet.

Rob

Rob-
Is it just because you have to edit the text file in order to use keynotes that you are not fond of them, or are there other issues that I'm not aware of?

[rjcrowther]

Rob-
Is it just because you have to edit the text file in order to use keynotes that you are not fond of them, or are there other issues that I'm not aware of?At the time I made this decision I felt that it would be a requirement for keynotes to have the functionality of a database rather than a text file. There is also the issue that in this country the format of the keynotes (16 division) is not widely used. We do have a shipped 'natspec' format as a substitute to CSI which is more applicable to us but the one line notation of a keynote is just not a general Australian method of annotating a drawing.

I did pick up on these forums (from mibzim - a Zimbabwean who has found a home in Queensland) that a better option for us was to perhaps use a multi category tag (and its associated shared parameters). I have changed mibzim's format to suit my purpose as follows:
Specification section
Item/Size
Material
Colour/Finish

So an example of the way a tag would read is:
0341 Structural Steel
Strutting beam 250UB32
Hot rolled steel
Corrosion protection to A.S. 2312


These four lines of information are just not available with the keynoting system ( if they are then let me know as I am more than happy to be shown the error of my ways) and so this is largely the reason why I think keynotes are just not quite there yet.

Thanks,
Rob

[Mr Spot]

I agree that Multi-Category tags was the most appropriate tool for what you were trying to achieve. The keynote tool I believe has a different purpose.

We use it as follows:

Tagging of materials or wall types.

CLG01 - Ceiling Type 1
CP - Chrome Plated
GR01 - Grab Rail Type 1
LV01 - Louvre Type 1

The detail of all these items is then picked up in the spec. They are much better than a text note as one change, changes all the items of that type.

[rjcrowther]

Thanks for that.

Rob

[cadclips81126]

Thanks WS,

Yes, a little time invested in setting up the 'Keynotes source file' and learning the different methods of Tagging / Keynoting can go a long way. Keynotes can be applied by Element (roof, floor wall) or by Material (gypsum bd, siding, concrete...)

I'll be adding a bunch more REVIT video tutorials to the www.CADclips.com site over the next few weeks.

If you have any suggestions drop me an email in the 'release schedule' posting.

DG

[Maximillian]

I haven't quite thought this through yet..but my feeling is that the keynote database and the material library should perhaps be one database. That way your materials are set as you are building your wall/floor assemblies for use in the project. It may be a little cumbersome to dig through a CSI tree to get your material...but i think there might be something there???

Any thoughts?

[Calvn_Swing]

I couldn't agree more.

Actually, I'd really appreciate it if AutoDesk would provide a better interface to all of the different .txt files we have to interact with somewhat regularly, not to mention vastly improving the material dialog (which at least exists).

Why we can't work out some kind of tree structure in materials is beyond me, as is the act of editing a text file to effectively work with anything from shortcuts to shared parameters. Or, maybe that guy who makes shortcut/content highway can work out a whole system interface to all these Revit "back ends" and make them easier to modify/track/update...

Hmm, maybe I should open my own software company... (wait, I can't program... foiled again!)

[brd]

So far, I haven't found the keynote tags useful at all. You can only keynote a family, and you cannot keynote anything but a family. Easy example... if you're trying to keynote a wall section that has drafting lines, you can't keynote the drafting lines. How are you supposed to call out items like flashing, sealant, backer rod, weep holes, etc. Nobody in their right mind would model tiny elements such as these, but they still need to be keynoted. Sure, you could create these items with detail components, but it's way too restrictive to have to create a whole new detail component family just for one tiny little object that is always a unique element and rarely the same size or shape as before.

Way back when (3 years ago when we switched to Revit), we created a generic annotation family that we use as our keynotes. They're nothing more than text. They're easily schedule-able, you can place them anywhere on your drawing, and they're not restricted to only tagging a modelled object. I'm glad they put this keynote concept in the software, but it needs to be more developed for us to use it.

[Scott D Davis]

So Nobody in their right mind would model tiny elements such as these, but they still need to be keynoted. Sure, you could create these items with detail components
Have you even looked in the detail library yet that comes with Revit? Almost all the things you mention have already been drawn for you as detail components, that will keynote.

Here's a screenshot of the thumbnails from C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Autodesk\RAC 2008\Imperial Library\Detail Components\Div 07-Thermal and Moisture Protection\07900-Joint Sealers\07915-Joint Sealer

[brd]

I'm not a fan of Revit's "out of the box" library. I've been lectured too many times after using those details components about how they're graphically incorrect, or they're not the right size. I couldn't guess at how much, but a significant bit of the families in the OOTB library are unusable. I loosely use the word "unusable" because most of them aren't that bad, but they take too much time and effort to get them suitable to the situation we need to use them for, that it's just faster, more convenient, and often times more graphically correct to just draw them with lines.

I try to tell people all the time to use detail components wherever possible, however there are just too many cases where detail components don't work and we can't take the time to create a detail component for just one thing.

Lastly, there are still some Revit users who just don't get the concept that for an object to be tagged, it has to be a family. They either don't get it, or won't accept that reality. The reason isn't as important as the result. The result is that people need to keynote objects that are not always families, and the keynote function doesn't work as we need it to.

[Scott D Davis]

that it's just faster, more convenient, and often times more graphically correct to just draw them with lines.
Faster once.....until you have to draw them again, and again, and again in the next projects, and run into problems like not being able to keynote them

Honestly, in the time it takes you to manually "draft" some lines to represent the object, you could have made a detail component family. 2D detail componets are perhaps the easiest type of family to grasp for users because thyey are 2D and typically pretty simple without a lot of parametrics. If you are taking the time to manually draft in, why not go File>New>Family>Detail Component and draft it there?

[Maximillian]

I tell people to never use detail lines on plans or sections. yes never. It takes all the revit magic away.

[ws]

I tell people to never use detail lines on plans or sections. yes never. It takes all the revit magic away.
In that case ;) ... what's the secret to getting Revit to make 'stop ends' to roof guttering, please?

Unless continous around a corner, Revit leaves the profile open at the ends which looks daft on elevations, unless you draw a line across the top of the profile.

[Paul P.]

William, here's my method for gutter ends as posted in another thread Close gutter ends?

Hope that is of some use.

[ws]

thanks Paul - but for some reason that link doesn't work for me...

I just get a vbulletin error message saying no thread specified.

[Paul P.]

Sorry William can't quite work out how to link another thread, try doing a search for a thread called Close gutter ends?.

[Brockway]

I think you're looking for this page: http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=35917&page=2&pp=10

[Paul P.]

That's the one.

[ws]

thanks both - I found it the hard way before Brockway's kind intervention.

Yes, that is a clever workaround :)

[t1.shep]

So far, I haven't found the keynote tags useful at all. You can only keynote a family, and you cannot keynote anything but a family. Easy example... if you're trying to keynote a wall section that has drafting lines, you can't keynote the drafting lines. How are you supposed to call out items like flashing, sealant, backer rod, weep holes, etc. Nobody in their right mind would model tiny elements such as these, but they still need to be keynoted. Sure, you could create these items with detail components, but it's way too restrictive to have to create a whole new detail component family just for one tiny little object that is always a unique element and rarely the same size or shape as before.

Way back when (3 years ago when we switched to Revit), we created a generic annotation family that we use as our keynotes. They're nothing more than text. They're easily schedule-able, you can place them anywhere on your drawing, and they're not restricted to only tagging a modelled object. I'm glad they put this keynote concept in the software, but it needs to be more developed for us to use it.

Has anyone found a good solution to this? I can see Scott's point from his response to the quoted post, but at the same time we might use lines to represent things like driveways, limits of disturbance, things that vary from project to project that don't need to be modeled/family detail component, etc. Is there still no way to keynote lines, maybe using a user tag? Or maybe it is easy to make something like a driveway into a component? For instance, on my project we don't need to model the topography (waste of memory and time), so we just want to show some of the site info with lines. Obviously we are using the building model to place the driveway, sidewalk, street, curb lines in the right spot. Can/would you use a detail component in this instance? If I setup a custom keynote file, why can't I tag whatever I want in the model regardless if it is a line or a 3d object/family?

[ddragoo144336]

I'm looking at using keynotes here in our office on a large project, and I would love to see if anyone has an answer to t1.shep's question above.

[t1.shep]

What I ended up doing was to use "Keynote-user" and tag something that is taggable close to the object/line/whatever that I wanted to tag. Then I just move the leader lines to point to whatever I want to tag. This allows you to use your keynote file and select whichever keynote you want. At the same time it allows you to go back and use another tag type on the object that you used a "user" tag on.
I saw this method somewhere and it's worked for me so far...
Hope that makes some sense.

[Gadget Man]

...Honestly, in the time it takes you to manually "draft" some lines to represent the object, you could have made a detail component family (...) If you are taking the time to manually draft in, why not go File>New>Family>Detail Component and draft it there?

A B S O L U T E L Y !!!

Even if you will NEVER use it again, so what? You never KNOW... To me it is plainly obvious that it doesn't really matter where you draw it - in the project or in the Family Editor - it's still the same... Than draw it once and... have it for ever!

I don't use out-of-the-box Revit families as a rule, but over the years I built several hundreds of my own...

[t1.shep]

A B S O L U T E L Y !!!

Even if you will NEVER use it again, so what? You never KNOW... To me it is plainly obvious that it doesn't really matter where you draw it - in the project or in the Family Editor - it's still the same... Than draw it once and... have it for ever!

I don't use out-of-the-box Revit families as a rule, but over the years I built several hundreds of my own...

I do agree, don't get me wrong...and I have done this for certain situations. But what if you need to use the building model as reference to create the drafting family? Short of creating multiple reference planes and parameters and going back and forth between the two files to figure it out, is there an efficient way of doing this? Or is this just a matter of "thinking in Revit" and working slightly different. I suppose that once you're proficient, these types of things don't take too long and can be made more useful in the long run. I just think that at times it's easiest just to draw what you want, where you want it, when you want it.
I'll keep practicing...

[kgoff]

Has anyone found a good solution to this? I can see Scott's point from his response to the quoted post, but at the same time we might use lines to represent things like driveways, limits of disturbance, things that vary from project to project that don't need to be modeled/family detail component, etc. Is there still no way to keynote lines, maybe using a user tag? Or maybe it is easy to make something like a driveway into a component? For instance, on my project we don't need to model the topography (waste of memory and time), so we just want to show some of the site info with lines. Obviously we are using the building model to place the driveway, sidewalk, street, curb lines in the right spot. Can/would you use a detail component in this instance? If I setup a custom keynote file, why can't I tag whatever I want in the model regardless if it is a line or a 3d object/family?

You can keynote lines by making detail components that *are* lines. For example, flashing. Go to "Create new family"----->"Detail Component" and then, in the family editor, go to "Object Styles" in your "Settings" menu and create a new linetype called "Flashing."

Now draw a line of that type in your family editor and put a reference plane at either end. Dimension between the 2 planes and add a length constraint.

Now you have a "Flashing" detail component. When you select it, you'll draw your lines as you normally would, but you'll be able to keynote them. You can also create types within your family for different kinds of flashing: sill, cap, through wall - you get the idea - that will keynote differently (after you tell them to, of course).


While I'm here: I like keynoting, but I wish it had (or could be tweaked to have) the same functionality as regular text. It would be nice to have the horizontal portion of the leader line move with the text when I have to shift a keynote around; and I wish the leader and justification functions were the same. But keynoting still beats typing the same thing 300 times. :)

[patricks]

I don't know, maybe I'm stuck in the past or something, or maybe my office as a whole is, but I personally can't STAND reading a set of plans with a bunch of numbers all over the details and having to keep referring to a legend over in one corner. From what I've heard from contractors around here, they don't much like it either.

My boss's previous firm used keynoting, and he doesn't care for it either, so as a result we don't use it at all in our office.

When I run into lots of repetitive notes, I just copy and paste.

[t1.shep]

I don't know, maybe I'm stuck in the past or something, or maybe my office as a whole is, but I personally can't STAND reading a set of plans with a bunch of numbers all over the details and having to keep referring to a legend over in one corner. From what I've heard from contractors around here, they don't much like it either.

My boss's previous firm used keynoting, and he doesn't care for it either, so as a result we don't use it at all in our office.

When I run into lots of repetitive notes, I just copy and paste.
I believe it is possible to still use keynotes, but instead of the using a tag with the number, you can create a new keynote tag that only shows the text. Correct me if I'm wrong?

[patricks]

ah well, perhaps that is true.

But quite often my annotations in my sections and details consist of what the object is that I'm calling out, and then additional information, like "painted" or "typical" or "mount such-n-such a way" or whatever. I would still have to type that information, so to me it's easier to just type all the notes, and copy and paste where possible.

I just wish I could add or remove leader lines from multiple text notes selected all at once. That's the only real pain is having to remove and add leaders one at a time when I copy a note or group of notes, and I have to place the copied notes on the opposite side of a detail from where they were originally.

[MTristram]

We are currently looking at implementing across our practice, but have come up with a couple of instances where I just can't get it to work for us:

How have people gotten around the fact you can not place a keynote to the drafting insulation tool? (I guess we could use T1.Sheps workaround....)

The repeating detail component - I just can't seem to get a keynote to pick this up, it only works if I have the original detail component copied/arrayed up the detail.

[Gadget Man]

... I personally can't STAND reading a set of plans with a bunch of numbers all over the details and having to keep referring to a legend over in one corner...

Who said you have to?

Look below (pictures 1 & 2). There is a mixture of Material Keynotes, Object Keynotes and User Keynotes, as well as one Generic Annotation text note (about insulation which doesn't keynote or tag) and several Detail Item tags.


... How have people gotten around the fact you can not place a keynote to the drafting insulation tool? (I guess we could use T1.Sheps workaround....)

The repeating detail component - I just can't seem to get a keynote to pick this up, it only works if I have the original detail component copied/arrayed up the detail.

As to the insulation detail you could draw a detail family line over and keynote it but I found that just one Generic Annotation text note saved in the template is easier. By the way, I have it in 3 flavours: left, centre and right justified, so I can pick which one it is on the fly. The same applies to keynotes and tags (my own families too).

As to the repeating details, instead of keynoting them I tag them with the Detail Item tags that read the content of the field COMMENTS in the Detail Item type properties dialog box.

And since I don't use these silly ambiguous keynote numbers I don't have a need to create any keynote schedules! And I don't need to follow any numbering convention, so I am free to construct the keynote source file as it suits me (= logically see picture 3 below)

[Gadget Man]

There is another good reason to use keynoting/tagging.

If, for whatever reason, your object changes (e.g. from timber to steel post) all the descriptions change automatically too to represent your alteration - no more silly, forgotten or overlooked discrepancies between pages...

And all the descriptions of the same object on all involved pages are the same - from the same source...

[brian104662]

I have just finished our first project utilizing keynotes and found that there were some things that we call out that were not included. I used a free program Notepad ++ to edit the text I needed and it's been awesome, what is nice is that the text program is tabbed and remembers that you had the keynote text open, it has an excellent find tool to track down whatever note you are after (I don't know my sections THAT well) Just remember that the keynotes text is written in TAB seperated text and don't use spaces to seperate the values from description and you'll be golden.

[kathy71046]

Can the width of the keynote text be altered at all or is the wrap width permanently fixed?

[Gadget Man]

Can the width of the keynote text be altered at all or is the wrap width permanently fixed?

That depends on the Keynote Tag family you use - I made my own (as almost every other family in Revit) and I made it to display text only (I don't care for the numbers at all) and the fixed length I wanted. I came to the size (length) of my Keynote Tag by trial and error on an average Elevation/Section layout - that's the only place where I use them.

If, for whatever reason, I need a different length I quickly edit the Keynote Tag family from within a project I need it for and reload it (without saving the family file itself). In this way the altered Keynote Tag is available for me in my current project, while my standard family remains unchanged.

[PinkPantser]

My suggestion (mostly in line with jetisart's methods):

Use Revit's keynotes for building plans, building sections, etc. - the small scale drawings.

For the large scale drawings (details) where you are using detail components and such, use a combination of text and a tag that reads type comments. So, details would be all text notes.

[kurk]

I find keynotes very useful, particularly now that I have had the chance to adapt them to suit my preferred style.

I also do not like numbers-only as a keynote but then also didnt like a long descriptive list of text for larger scale drawings either so came up with a compromise.

I use a simple alpha-numeric system with a basic description as my keynote name (instead of just the number) with the descriptive text after it reserved for use on small scale details (see images below). This way the contractor can see roughly what it is straight away as well as have reference to a descriptive keynote legend on the same sheet which also matches the text on the details later in the set. The number can still be to a specified industry system or to a simpler system like mine.

I will look at adopting a more industry accepted numbering system in front of the basic description when it becomes more commonplace here in NZ but for now am happy with my simple system, particularly since I am mainly doing smaller residential projects.

I have various family types for my keynotes to suit either 'keynote name' (value) only or 'keynote text' as well as a couple of leader options for each (dot and arrow). I have chosen to put my key values in a box (detail lines in the tag family) to help line up with each other visually, attach the leaders to tidily and negate the need to create left and right handed versions.


Originally posted by Patricks
When I run into lots of repetitive notes, I just copy and paste.
I used to do this also before converting to keynotes but instead used a dummy drafting view called Project Notes that had 'grouped' notes in it for various elements etc that I could copy around my project but only change once (from anywhere in the project) when something needed updating or changing. This way I never had conflicting notes. The only problem with this was I ended up creating duplicates next to each other in the drafting view for left and right handed notes thus reducing my ability to change both notes at once from anywhere in the project. Still a useful solution for some instances of text though and much better than simply copying, pasting and isolating the same note IMHO. Oh I have to add that I had to use 'blank leaders' to point to the element from the groups though but I think this was a minor issue and at least got the leaders where I wanted them for once!.

Hope this helps someone, somewhere? :)

[ecoley]

Keynotes are amazing. They reduce the opportunity for human error, and save us time.

We make extensive use of Keynoting in our firm. We use the spec section numbers for our keynote tags. We're currently checking out the e-specs for revit software to automatically generate our keynote lists from the specification, to add another layer of automated coordination. Some tasks are better left to the computers.

The feedback that I have received from contractors is that they don't mind numbered keynotes on the drawings, so long as the legend appears on each sheet and is filtered per sheet. The ability to filter the legend per sheet actually makes an extremely useful reference for them on that page.

I encountered a large amount of initial opposition to keynoting with the spec section numbers, for many of the reasons already in this thread... But it only took me about 15 minutes to start convincing people otherwise.

We use the line-based detail components for those exceptional cases mentioned here - cases like insulation, unique flashings, etc. The time it takes to make a detail component is the same amount of time it takes to draw it. A trivial amount of time will add a large amount of value down the road. We even have some very nice parametric detail components for common flashings, expansion covers, etc.

[CarlaDE]

It was very interesting to read through this "Good or Bad?" topic.

I LOVE Keynoting!!! I was the first to use on a project in our office about 1 1/2 years ago. More and more have picked it up and most are sold immediately. There are a few stragglers, but they are the people not letting go of using Revit like AutoCAD. So go figure...

Factoring out human error is a huge perk! We are just starting to dabble with E Specs in office as well... my knowledge does not go beyond one meeting, but I am excited about the possiblities. Another thing that I like is that if forces people to know spec # locations making us all smarter users.

My question that I need to throw out is concerning adjusting my .txt file to follow the 2004 format (based upon 50 divisions). I read in the help that this "can be accomplished by adding the additional divisions to the default keynote data files as needed. I am not finding the steps to do this any where. Has anyone worked through this process?

Thank you in advance!!

Carla Edwards

[sfaust]

If you have a lot of existing keynotes and can't use the out of the box one, I would use excel to edit them. Unfortunately I don't know of a way to do it automatically. I guess find/replace would help a little bit...

[CarlaDE]

Thank you for the response Steve,
I suspected that would be the answer. We have a couple of projects starting in this format, so create an additional template file in that format.

I need to get on AUGI more often - great reading the discussions and seeing what everyone else is doing. Can't let busy schedule dictate when there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

Thanks again!

[arqt49]

The great advantage of keynoting is that you get the same code (yes, code) for your detail drawings, for the specifications and for your schedules.
Don't think only of the drawings part. That way, It's all crosslinked.
You can even organize your material samples and library by the keynotes.
Of course it's a boring and tedious job, to get those numbers to work, but it's very useful for organization and quality control.
And from all I've seen, Masterformat 2004 rules.

[clarkitekt]

Have you even looked in the detail library yet that comes with Revit? Almost all the things you mention have already been drawn for you as detail components, that will keynote.

Here's a screenshot of the thumbnails from C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Autodesk\RAC 2008\Imperial Library\Detail Components\Div 07-Thermal and Moisture Protection\07900-Joint Sealers\07915-Joint Sealer

Scott, I guess this would be fine if every detail we did were exactly like the last, thus allowing us to wholly repeat the use of these detail components. The fact is however that, at least in our office, every building we do is almost entirely different from the last. The workflow you propose is a little proposterous if you think about it. We rarely draw the same detail twice in a project (because what would be the point), we rarely have the same detail from one project to another, but we should create a detail component for that once or twice in a lifetime detail...just so that we can attach a keynote? To make matter worse, the process of creating detail components is so detached from the project, you wind up setting up some reference planes in the detail components as a stand-in for the angles and context of the building you are trying to detail. You load that in and realize that, oops, to make my drawing read well, half of one side needs to have a "cut" line weight and the other half shouldn't show as cut (just a basic example) so you go back and edit the component as required. Will this work the next time you use it? "brd" is right on. Keynoting in Revit, as is Revit, a city full of good idea cul-de-sacs. That is to say that it looks like the right way to go until you get to the end and realize you can't get where you need to be from there.

[Brockway]

So, I think I already know the answer to this but I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong.

Is there any way fix the point of origin for the leaders of a Keynote Tag (or any tag for that matter)? I've placed a label in the family that looks to the text description of the keynote file and inevitably some descriptions cause the text to wrap. In my current scenario the point of origin of the leader moves to the center point of the wrapped text instead of staying at the top line of the text as it would if I were to simply place text with a leader.
I can shift the label to be middle justified and just accept that the leader will always be centered. But, I just don't like the way that looks.

Any advice?

[Brockway]

FWIW: I found a way to get around my conundrum. I placed small invisible linesin the family and spaced them out (up/down, left/right) to create a false center. Then placed the point of my text where I want the leader to be orginating from at that false center. Assign the text to be aligned Top/Left and hope that it never wraps past the point of my "down" invisible line.
The downfall is that when selecting the tag in the project its extents are seemingly too large and the blue move arrows appear farther away (at the edge of the invisible lines).