Custom Structural Framing Tag

[cmolina]

Hi, I need to create a custom framing tag and I wasn't quite sure on how to accomplish this. I tried copying the standard framing tag and editing it but no luck. What I need is a framing tag which will tag the beam depth instead of the beam size. i.e. Instead of tagging a "W14X48" I need the tag to read "W14". This is for a framing elevation where we want to show the moment frames but still want all sizes to come from the plans. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[lcamara]

I'd like to see this, too. In the early phases of the design, you can estimate the beam depth based on span length, so it's nice to put "W12x" on the plan (so coordination of the ceiling space, etc. can begin) but you don't want to specify the size. It would be great to be able to just select the "partial" tags and change them all to "full" tags once the design's been done. I could think of possible applications for columns as well.

I'm a Revit newbie, but there are two possible solutions that I can think of at the moment (since I don't see how to do it the "right" way):

1 - edit the tag & use a Masking Region to blank out the size. You'd need to create multiple versions of the tag since the position would change based on the number of digits in the size.
2 - edit the catalog to include the depth in one of the other fields (Comments?) - could use a round-trip through Excel. You'd also need to edit the tag to show that field instead of Type Name. You'd have to edit the other catalogs (HSS, etc.) as well, if you want the same functionality with them.

I'm not really big on messing around with default stuff, but I think #2 would be the more elegant way to go.

[Thomas Maleski]

Yes, method 2 is the better solution. This is what I'm currently doing. I created two fields, one for W8x10 (Lower Case x) and the other is just depth W8. I added two additional Tag Types so you still only need the one family loaded.

[cmolina]

Thanks for the input. This will work for what I need to do.

[Steve Mintz]

I'm a fan of using the "Type Mark" property. You can open up the type catalog using excel, and quickly modify it to populate the "Type Mark" property with the desired text. Then, as Thomas mentioned, simply make a new tag to show this information.

[lcamara]

Is there a way to list all the Type and Instance Parameters for the Family? I open "W-Wide Flange.rfa" and go to "Family Types..." but I don't see "Type Mark" or "Mark" (which I assume to be Type and Instance Parameters, respectively.

I also see parameters that weren't in the list when I was editing the beam tag. I assume that's because some are specific to the W family? How would I create a tag to access those if I wanted to - could I just type it in (instead of selecting from the pull-down)?

Basically, I'm curious about what the various parameters are supposed to be used for. Some are self explanatory, but others I'm not as sure of.

[Adam Mac]

Hi Lionel -

basically, the "Type mark" can be found by highlighting the specific object, going to its Properties, and then one more step by clicking the Edit/Duplicate button (top right corner of dialog box). You should now see Type Mark listed there. Whatever "mark" you type into the "Type Mark" space will apply to every occurrence of that particular object within the project.

If however you have 2 (or more...) copies of the same object within the same project that you want to give different marks to, pick one of those objects, go to its Properties, and you should see "Mark" listed within the properties. If you were to place your text in this box it will only apply to this particular instance of the object, i.e. it won't apply to the other(s) copy of that object.

In order to schedule these differing Marks, you need to make sure that the Tag you use to tag these objects contains either the "type Mark" of the "Mark" paramater, depending on what you want to report.

HTH

Adam

[lcamara]

Thomas, is there a reason you created TWO additional parameters, instead of just renaming the beams to have the lower-case "x"? Is there a compatibility issue with analysis software (links) that requires the names of steel sections to have the upper-case "X"?

Steven, I tried adding "Type Mark" to the catalog, but when I imported it into Revit, I got a "The parameter Type Mark doesn't exist in the Family. It will be ignored." error.

"Type Mark" looks like a type parameter, because it's listed as one in the project, but if I edit the family it doesn't show up in "Family Types" (neither does "Assembly Description", which is grayed, so Revit probably deals with that one automatically). There's a "Type Comments", but no "Type Mark".

If it's a type parameter, shouldn't it show up in the family? I can understand why most of the instance parameters don't show up in the "Family Types" dialog, since there's no reasonable "default", but the absence of "Type Mark" is confusing, and I'm leary of creating a new "Type Mark" property in the family that might conflict with the one Revit puts in.

[Thomas Maleski]

I'll have to check the latest releases of the links but in the past, YES the analysis links need the upper case X in order to work.

[lcamara]

OK, I guess that means I'll be creating custom parameters, and since I'm doing that, there's not much of a reason to use Type Mark instead of a 2nd custom parameter, but I'd still like to know why I can't set Type Mark values in the catalog (and why Type Mark doesn't show up in Family Types).

thanks, Thomas

[phoulx]

At first I was looking for this too. Similar to levels of detail/display, you choose what view reads BEAM, W12 or W12x14.

(gulp) I can't believe I'm saying this, but, isn't the "W12" tag the "old" way of doing things? In the pencil era and in cad, we would show BEAM or W12 in case the sizes changed or else you had to search through every plan, detail, elevation and schedule to make sure you changed every single occurence. With Revit, that is not a worry is it?

The other reason for the truncated tag is for pricing. One method of estimating is to look at the drawings and include only members with complete sizes to avoid duplication. (A W12x14 on plan and a W12 in detail= one W12x14= correct. A W12x14 on plan and a W12x14 in detail= two W12x14s= incorrect). Let's make a wild assumption that the Revit model is 100% accurate and the estimator has compatible software and they easily import the model and get an estimate correct to the nearest penny. Then you could tag every member in every view and who cares? It would be cluttered for sure.

But the perfect model and perfect estimating software probably do not exist and it would produce very cluttered drawings. For these reasons, I would still like to see the truncated tag option available but I really wouldn't complain to badly about not having it. I still don't like the leader choices in tags but that's a different issue.

[lcamara]

Just to comment on "W12x" being the "old" way of doing things: that was what I thought when I first came across this. I was trying to "duplicate" an existing set of drawings when I realized "hey, Revit can show the actual size", but there are still some reasons why you might want to show only the depth (though not as many, which is why I agree with your other comments, and would probably not have bothered to provide this option except for the upper-case "X" vs. lower-case "x" issue - I figured, while I'm at it, I might as well...).

Most details & section cuts would be fine to show as the actual size, but there are many cases where you would want to show a "general" almost "typical" detail, that would apply to multiple locations with varying but similar sizes. I'm thinking of framing elevations and "assemblies". I'm sure in most situations a section cut with "SIM", or an "exploded" & manually edited detail with "TYP" at the section cut, would be acceptable alternatives, but it's nice to have the option. I like options! :)

[phoulx]

In one of those weird, "Hey I was just talking about that!" moments I totally accidentally stumbled across this thread: http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?messageID=5269520

Edit your W-Wide Flange.txt file so they all read W12x... instead of W12X...

Sounds almost to easy to be true. Anyone try this before?

[lcamara]

Based on Thomas Maleski's post on 9/27/2007 (above):
I'll have to check the latest releases of the links but in the past, YES the analysis links need the upper case X in order to work.

I think it's safer to create new (custom) tags, and not mess with the factory-supplied stuff.

On a related note, I discovered some inconsistencies in the HSS family catalog. Most are shown with 3 decimals (including trailing zeros) unless 4 are needed, but there are some that don't include trailing zeros (I'm not sure if the zeros can be added without consequence, but I add them in my parameter):

HSS12X12X.25
HSS6X5X.25
HSS5X4X.5
HSS5X2-1/2X.25
HSS4X4X.25

EDIT: FYI, we usually show fractions stacked in steel designations, so I was at a loss as to how to show the size better, and decided to just go for consistency for now.

[phoulx]

So I was curious, I edited the HSS-Hollow Structure Section.TXT file first by changing the font to a true type that includes fractions then changing just the HSS4X4X.500 to HSS4x4x1/2. Next I created a Family>Annotation Symbols>Structure Framing Tag Fractions>Standard and tagged the HSS4x4 in Revit. Looks great! Then a quick Export to Ram and I see the 1/2 has disappeared from the screen and the Show Size box. And I notice the unedited HSS6X6X.500 has been converted to 1/2.

Almost seems like this is going somewhere.

[lcamara]

Good idea! I never thought of trying that. Unfortunately, after looking at the characters available in Ariel, it only has increments of thirds and eighths (x/2,x/4,x/8), not down to sixteenths or thirty-seconds, so we wouldn't be able to use that technique without creating a custom font (not to mention that that workaround would probably not be worth it since we'd have to always be typing special characters - although I could create a keyboard macro to enter them). Until stacked fractions are available in all text throughout Revit, we'll just have to put up with the "ugly" text.

To solve the problem of the thickness dropping out in RAM, you could create a custom field instead of changing the name, as discussed above.


...I notice the unedited HSS6X6X.500 has been converted to 1/2...

Probably a function of the display properties in RAM.

[phoulx]

A custom TTF is what I'm using here (all the fractions plus many symbols, alt+0189= 1/2 etc) which looks good in Revit. I created that to AVOID making the alternate field. This quick experiment appears to work in Revit (even shows up in the Element Properties>Type box) but breaks down going through Revit/RAM link into RAM. HSS4x4x shows on screen and in the beam properties box. Interesting that the HSS6X6X.500 converts the X to x and the .500 to 1/2 somehow. RAM had plenty of text tweaks available for dxf exporting but not for importing.

Basically, the small x option, fractions and a normal plate and angle symbol are what I'm after. It's just a matter of finding the right hack to allow this without breaking the link to RAM. I'll try to dig into this when I get a chance.

[lcamara]

I would think that creating a custom font would be the most difficult solution, and creating custom fields is much easier than manually entering all the data into RAM, etc. Again, RAM (and the other analysis packages) expect the names to look a certain way, and while I would expect that they should at least parse for both upper- AND lower-case "X"s, there's no guarantee that all links will do that, so it's better to not mess with the default parameters. Especially since there's no way to tell it which special character represents a 0.5, etc. Just using special symbols, on the other hand, should be fine in notes, etc.

While many projects don't require extensive analysis, the analytical model is still a large chunk of the benefit of Revit, so to loose that when there's a much easier way doesn't make sense to me.

As far as formatting in RAM, once it knows that it's an HSS with a certain width, height, and thickness, it's just a matter of what display options are available that determines "X" or "x", fractions or decimals, etc. (like the unit display variables in ACAD), although I'm not personally familiar with how flexible it is.

BTW, did you customize the font in-house or send it out? What software / who did you use? Were you happy with the experience & the results?

[phoulx]

I used FontCreator from High Logic to do it myself. It can be time consuming if you want to be real accurate but it's not that difficult. I need to complete mapping some of the symbols to finish it but if it won't work with the RAM translation then I might just forget it. I was trying to create one universal TT font to use in our office in any application. The Revit text oddities just inspired me to work on this faster. I still need to look into this more.