Window Visibility Problem...

[kyler]

I'm having a problem seeing a window in plan view. The first thing I thought was that the cut plane was not high enough to cut through the window, but the window is well into the cut plane. Does anyone have an idea why I can't see this window. Attached is a Word Document with a couple screen shots.

[abarrette]

The first thing I need to be sure of, and not to be insulting but, you have something(s) temporarily hidden in the views you posted. You didn't accidentally select the windows when hiding object by chance?

Otherwise I would edit the family and be sure that the solid geometry is set to display in plan/rcp. If this is not the case checking visibility for Plan/RCP should do it.

I suppose its possible that the window category is off so you may want to check that as well in Visibility/Graphics. It looks like the trim piece that is visible in plan is separate from the window so the window could be off and show the opening. If the trim piece is part of the window family my bet would be the vsibility of the solids in the family.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Some possibilities...
Are windows turned off in the view or hidden?
Is there a plan region in the area where the window is placed?
Have you opened the family and checked the visibiity settings?
Have you tried reloading the family or placing the family in another project file?
Is this a problem specific to this family?
Noticed there was phases shown, are the windows in a different phase

[dhurtubise]

Can you post part of the project ?

[kyler]

The thing that is temporarily hidden, is a CAD background, so thats not the problem, I have checked the visibility on all the geometry, I even tried deleting the trim around, but then it shows the outline of where the window would be, but no real detail of the window, it's still hidden for some reason. I've tried applying materials, I didn't know if that would help or not. If you guys have any other insight it would be greatly appreciated.

[abarrette]

Yes, a post of the family or a portion of the project would be helpful.

Did you try the window in a new project or check the phasing as suggested by Dimitri?

[kyler]

Here are a few more screen shot...

[kyler]

Answer: Make sure cut plane in family matches cut plane in project...Thanks for your help guys.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Sorry Kyler, you lost me here.
What do you mean by the cut plane in the family?

[kyler]

when you are in the window family, go to the ref. plan view, and then go to the visibility range option, and make sure the value matches the project. I don't know if this is a common thing that has to be adjusted, but this is the first time I've run into this problem, and when I followed those steps, all was good.

[abarrette]

That strikes me as VERY odd. The view range and lineweights in the family editor are purely for usability in the family design. They have nothing to do with the family usage or appearance in the actual project.

It leads me to believe that something happened to corrupt the family at some point and reloading it after resaving it fixed that issue... but it may be as you say. It's just very odd.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

That strikes me as VERY odd. The view range and lineweights in the family editor are purely for usability in the family design. They have nothing to do with the family usage or appearance in the actual project..

That was my understanding too, hence my confusion.
Glad you got it sorted out Kyler

[dbaldacchino]

Sorry to interject, but for the sake of others reading this post, I don't believe you are correct. Window families don't behave like you're suggesting and the cut plane in the family has no bearing over how the window displays in the project environment. One family whose cut plane does have a bearing (in some cases) over how it displays in projects is the Structural Column Family. This family has a parameter "Show Family Pre-cut" and if it is selected in the family editor, the column will display in the project according to the family's cut plane.

So, there has to be something else causing your problem. It would be nice if you could post the family so that we can take a look. :beer:

[Calvn_Swing]

David Conant helped me out on the same issue a few years ago, so I'll speak for him here. Revit does not actually calculate what a family will look like in plan in the project. It loads what I'd liken to a "symbol" of the family, and always displays that "symbol" whenever the window is cut in plan by the cut plane.

In our case, we had a window that actually stretched over two floors. What it would look like in plan on the second floor is different than what it would look like in plan on the first. When we loaded it into the project, it looked the same on the second floor and on the first. We ended up having to break it into two window families for this reason. It has nothing to do with getting the cut plane in the family to match the project, and everything to do with getting the plan representation to look right in the family ref. level so that wherever you cut through it in plan it looks "right." This is how ALL the 3D families work as far as I know. I wish we could disable this behavior by family, but as yet that is a non-option.

Make sense?

[dbaldacchino]

Revit does not actually calculate what a family will look like in plan in the project. It loads what I'd liken to a "symbol" of the family, and always displays that "symbol" whenever the window is cut in plan by the cut plane.Make sense?

This is intriguing....David Conant's knowledge doesn't come close to mine so I would never dare to contradict him :) I still don't understand this "symbol" explanation though. I just tried making a trapezoidal window, really tall. I loaded it in a project and set the cut plane to 5'-0". Then to 10'-0", then to 15'-0"....every time the family changed since one of the jambs moved outwards. So I don't understand how it could be using a "symbol" generated from what the family looks like in the Ref Level. Or are we just talking about symbolic lines? Then that would be "locked" since it's not 3D geometry that can flex.

[HawkeyNut]

I never encountered these problems with regularly hosted windows. However, I've had windows hosted in a solid curtainwall panel that did create a problem:

The cut plane cut through the bottom of the two windows. The top window was far above the cut plane. Once the curtain wall panel was brought into the project, the second window would show on the plan, regardless of the height of the cut plane. Ultimately I just decided to turn to visitibility off for the entire upper window in plan .

I never got to the bottom of this issue and honestly somewhat forgotten about it until I stumbled upon this thread...

[eddy.lermytte]

I came across this issue starting with Revit a couple years ago.

As far as I know, the Cut Plane Height in the Rfa actually does effect the way objects are displayed on project level as ;
- cut
- seen from above (horizontal projection)
- not displayed.

In attachment a window Rfa with 2 frames, one on top of the other.
If you like, try this out;
- Cut Plane Height Rfa going through Frame A > load into project and change the cut plane of the plan view > compare
- Cut Plane Height Rfa going through Frame B > load into project and change the cut plane ... > compare.
- Cut Plane Height Rfa well above Frame B > load .... > compare

Also interesting to mention / compare : what is displayed when you join Frame A and Frame B.

I am quite certain the cases Kyler and Kelly mentioned can be reconstructed or pointed as one of the above combinations.

[Elmo]

Hi guys Eddy and Kyler are correct in saying that it effects the project. The reason why I say they are correct is because I had a client that couldn't view his window in the project no matter what he he did with his cut range in his plan region. The minute we changed it inside the family it worked exactly like what he wanted. His was a window that was drawn above the cut plane inside the family so it wouldn't represent correctly.

[Calvn_Swing]

Keep in mind that in the family, Revit shows you a lot of stuff that technically you should be seeing. So, for instance, if you turn off the visibility of a solid object in plan, you can still see it in the family as a dark gray line. The same goes for all sorts of things. So, trying to imagine what you're seeing the in ref. plan view of a family as a symbol is a bit tricky. How about this as an explanation.

Let's say you have a window that is complex vertically (changes width, etc...). You're cut plane is at 4' 0" in the family where the window is 4' wide. Above it, it widens to 6' 0". Let's say you hide some of the geometry, and add some symbolic lines, but leave some of the geometry on. Now, you save the family and load it into the project. Basically, Revit takes a picture of how that family looks in plan, fortunately after removing the gray lines from "hidden" objects, and any time that family is cut in plan, it shows you that picture even if the cut plane in the project is different than the cut plane in the family. No matter where you move your plan cut plane, view range settings, or plan region view range settings, your window will always show as 4' 0" wide. It gets complicated if you've got a lot of objects with visibility linked to parameters. I assume Revit makes a "snapshot" of all the possible combinations, or all the active combinations in a project or something. We'd need David Conant to chime back in to answer that one...

[dbaldacchino]

First off, my apologies for any mis-statements I made in my previous posts :Oops:

I honestly didn't know this and when I tested out (too quickly probably), I was just observing the opening in the family and it was changing per the cut plane. But after looking at Eddy's example and making some modifications to make it even clearer (changed material colors and shapes of frames to make it easier to understand what you're looking at in plan), it's evident that the family cut plane is what's used to define the cut plane of the window geometry. Openings are not affected by this.

It's also interesting to see that when you join geometry, the cut plane seems to behave correctly, but when geometry is separate, it looks more peculiar. This is hard to explain, but it looks like the object above or below the cut plane is then seen in projection and the object that the cut plane intersects is seen cut. The "symbol" used in the project is not exactly like what is seen in the family editor, but is a hybrid of two things: the geometry as cut (per family editor) and the other geometry as seen in projection (not as seen in family editor).So in this case, you still don't get a true representation of that window. I guess the only option is to turn off the 3D geometry and make symbolic lines to show when family is cut.

If the cut plane doesn't intersect the window but the top or bottom clip planes overlap the window geometry, the entire "symbol" is shown in projection (from above). In an RCP view, the if the top clip plane touches the window geometry, the "symbol" is shown in projection as seen from below.

Does anyone know if this just applies to windows or is it all families, perhaps with the exception of generic models? I wonder if the behavior would be the same if you start a window from a generic model.....that's it from me for now and I hope I didn't cause too much confusion. I never came across this documented anywhere and thought that cuttable families were true cuts. Guess not.....

[Calvn_Swing]

As for as I know it's "all" families, except of course those that it doesn't do that on. This is one of those areas where I REALLY wish Autodesk would give the user control.

There are all these hidden defaults and settings that are designed (and for the most part well set up) to make using Revit as easy as possible for the newbie users. However, in some cases these settings just don't work for a given project or firm, and as our Revit manager I'd like the ability to control that! Whether it is some family categories not cutting in section, to others not having a live cut representation in plan, etc... Give me a dialog under "project settings" where I can control these category default behaviors! PLEASE!

[dbaldacchino]

I can't believe I forgot this thread:

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=58323

I remembered some thread that made reference to the structural column but I forgot that it also talked about other family representations too. Now I will never forget again :)

[Munkholm]

Just can´t believe that this still aplies in 2010 :confused:

I´m having major problems with a very complex set of window families, and hunted it down to the cut plane settings within the families (parent and nested)

I´m dealing with parrent families, which contain the opening, sill, casement etc. and with nested families, which is basicly only the frame, sash and glass.

Everything worked like a charm, just until the window was placed (as new construction) in an existing wall - then the window did´nt show at all... after a lot of tweaking, and searching, I´ve managed to get it somehow right, by changing the cut-plane within both the parrent and the nested family... still having problems getting the bottom frame/sash showing though...
Another thing that I´ve discovered is, that if I aply detail lines to all of the 2D geometry, all problems go away (Exept from spending hours/days, aplying detail lines, which i´d rather not have in there in the first place)

Anyone ever figured out, exactly why things behave like they do ? Or know of any documentation on the subject ?

Thanks.

[Munkholm]

Bumping, and praying a clever mind will catch it in the pond of student assignments ;-)

[dbaldacchino]

Can you post an example? It'll be easier to give an analysis :) I've seen certain "shady" things with window families but I've always figured out the logic Revit was using (albeit undocumented). I don't use these family types that much as I model mostly using curtain walls since we use a lot of storefront and curtain walls.