Relay Panels?

[mjohnson.88569]

I have not found a way to make a relay panel (lighting control) yet. I am wondering anyone out there has come across an easy way to model this in Revit MEP yet.

Mike

[mjdanowski]

I have not found a way to make a relay panel (lighting control) yet. I am wondering anyone out there has come across an easy way to model this in Revit MEP yet.

Mike

You could probably make a control system panel, then connect it to another control switch families.

[mjohnson.88569]

That is not exactly what the question i was asking. A relay panel acts very similar to a panel board but as you know a relay panel can take a circuit and split it up into a few different load. For instance 1 load could be a linear fixture a second could be down lighting and a third could be some sconces in a room all on the same circuit. How is a Panel/ device made that could model this? The control station is a whole another issue that i can tackle at a later time.

thanks Mike

[mjdanowski]

That is not exactly what the question i was asking. A relay panel acts very similar to a panel board but as you know a relay panel can take a circuit and split it up into a few different load. For instance 1 load could be a linear fixture a second could be down lighting and a third could be some sconces in a room all on the same circuit. How is a Panel/ device made that could model this? The control station is a whole another issue that i can tackle at a later time.

thanks Mike

Honestly, I would just make another panel and then set the poles on the panel to how many circuits you want the relay setup to use. Usually I have seen relay panels as just a fancy electrical panel, in Revit there would be little difference.

[mjohnson.88569]

I don't think i understand. So how do you feed a circuit from panel BP-A to 5 different relays in Relay Panel LCP-1. Then how do you handle if you have different Voltages in that panel. It is done in the field with a Voltage Barrier.

Thanks
Mike

[mjdanowski]

I don't think i understand. So how do you feed a circuit from panel BP-A to 5 different relays in Relay Panel LCP-1. Then how do you handle if you have different Voltages in that panel. It is done in the field with a Voltage Barrier.

Thanks
Mike

You can feed two voltages INTO the relay panel, however you cannot feed two voltages OUT of it.

Overall though, you will be doing some sort of workaround with this. Revit electrically does not have much support for a lot of these off little pieces of equipment.

[HeLioS]

"Overall though, you will be doing some sort of workaround with this. Revit electrically does not have much support for a lot of these off little pieces of equipment."

Off little pieces of equipment?

You mean like ones that get used on nearly every single building project?

<---doing the 'revit workaround shuffle'

[ahefner]

I'm going to dig this discussion back up instead of creating a new thread regarding the exact same thing...

Has anyone figured out a way do it it yet?

Here's what we have...

1 room, 6 lights, each light in on a Relay panel circuit (1 thru 6), but all of the lights are on the same Electrical Panel circuit (I.E. Panel "A" - circuit A-1).

I typically show the Relay Panel number near the homerun, then show the Electrical Panel circuit reference within the Relay Panel's schedule (not on the drawing).

Here's the only thing I can think to get around this... (if there isn't a direct way).

Create the RP as if it's the Electrical Panel. Connecting the circuits as they would be to the RP. Then, within the Panel A schedule, add dummy circuits in which I simply hand type in the corresponding Relay Panel circuits.

I guess since there isn't a physical link between the panels' circuits I should go back and add a parameter to the fixture families to list the Electrical Panel circuit number too. Kinna a PITN, but would help keep things coordinated.

Relay panels are pretty important, as we have them on every single project we do, also. Which also brings up the subject of Time Clocks and Photo Sensors...

[JoelLondenberg]

...I typically show the Relay Panel number near the homerun, then show the Electrical Panel circuit reference within the Relay Panel's schedule (not on the drawing)...

I'm mainly a ducts and pipes guy, so can you explain step by step and circuit by circuit how the va flows? Based on this it seems that it really SHOULD be an electrical panel. One circuit from feeds the relay panel and the relay panel feeds the lights. Isn't that the basic tiered function of main panels feeding sub panels?

[ahefner]

The Relay Panel is like a switch to control the lights (a relay = an electronically controlled switch).

The relay can receive input from a time clock or photo sensor (and other devices) to automatically turn on/off the lights, but the lights still receive their power through the electrical panel. Normally you'll also have a "user override local switch" so an occupant can turn on/off the lights as well.

[JoelLondenberg]

So... Panel A Circuit 2 supplies power for the lighting in rooms 1, 2 & 3. The lighting relay accepts circuit A2 and splits it and separately controls power to the 3 rooms???

If that's the case, what wiring do you show? Lights in one of the rooms wire to a j-box, the j-box has a homerun, the homerun is tagged with the circuit number A2? Where in the wiring/circuiting scheme does the lighting relay panel get documented?

[ahefner]

Part 1 - correct.

Panel "A" Circuit 2 (A-2) supplies power to all of the lights in rooms 1, 2, and 3. The relay panel provides switching options for all the lights in all three rooms. So you might have Relay Circuits 1-12 which all go back to A-2 or you might even have Relay Circuits 1, 5, 12 and 42 which control these lights and are on power circuit A-2.

For the wiring (on the drawings) we show the lights with a homerun tagged with the Relay Panel's circuit number (as RA-1 where the "A" indicates it's the Relay Panel for the Power Panel "A"). Then we have a panel schedule for the Relay Panel which lists all of the circuit descriptions and also has a category for which power panel circuit each relay panel circuit goes to.

In the Panel "A" schedule we'll simply add up the total loads for all of the lights per circuit, but there's no indication of which Relay Panel circuit since there might be several and not necessarily in sequence.

[ahefner]

In addition to all of this... you also have switch circuits :D

[ahefner]

Here's a typical Relay Panel Schedule.

[MT745004]

Is there a way to make use a family as a subfamily. For instance,
one family may be the enclosure type/size and within that family may
be components w/ 120/277V inputs. This relates to relay panels
such that all lighting ballast are not line voltage. There is 0-10V
dimming, Dali network communication, phase angle dimming,
Dry contact inputs from occupancy sensors and keypads, etc.
Many of these components may reside in an enclosure with
a barriers to separate class 1 and class 2. Therefore, many
connection points and mixed voltage may reside in the control
panel. They are different from electrial distribution panels in
size and makeup. There are government regulations that require
buildings to control lighting by many of these very means. Is
there a way in revit to create units as families and tie them
as subfamilies for connections? Does anyone know if this
can be done and if so how to begin?

Thanks

[sven.129574]

Even after 3 years, I still have the same question as the original poster. Is there now a sensible way to do lighting control (relay) panels? I'm hoping that there's a good way to do it now, and I'm just not seeing it.

Unless I hear of a better way, we're thinking of using doing it with an "other" panel that uses a "control" connector. It looks like electrical devices like occ sensors can be circuited to "other" panels, and the sensor will know it's panel and circuit (though not which lights it controls). "Control" connectors could also be attached to light fixtures, but light fixtures won't report their control circuit number in a schedule or in a lighting fixture tag -- just their power circuit.

How are other people handling it?

[Callidac]

My Method-

I create a different Revit "electrical panel" for each Relay Circuit needed in the job. I circuit the set of lights I want on that relay and have that "relay circuit"(which is actually a panel) fed from the actual Electrical Panel, that way the loads are still calculated and you can schedule the Relay Panel Circuits. You can use this method for Time Clocks, Photocells, bells, whistles, etc. And for circuiting numbers, you can just add a prefix or suffix to indicate which "electrical panel" it is being fed from in addition to the Relay Number. This will also work for multi volt Relay Panles because each Relay circuit is treated individually. Hope this helps.

[Jason Roy]

Hey Cadillac,
I'm going to give this a go today or tomorrow when I get a chance but do you think it would work to create a family for the relay panel and nest a bunch of single breaker power panels into it to act as relays?

[Callidac]

Sorry for the late response. I have never tried that method before. Did you get it to work the way you wanted? I just took the Electrical Panel and did a save as, changed the size, and made several different types of relays, then placed them on the face of the actual Relay Panel in the project, but with the visiblity turned off in plan view so you don't see them.

Let me know how you ended up tweaking it... I'm sure my method can be improved upon, but it worked for me and I haven't heard of anyone coming up with a better idea... Hopefully it worked out for you!

Callidac

[Karlfucious]

What we have acually done is create a Relay Generic Annotation that contains all the scheduled parameters we need. Then Created a note block to schedule all of the Relays we place in the Panel Diagram. Its far from a perfect solution but seems to work. Granted the information is all Diagrammatic and doesn't connect to the lights in any way but it is pretty straight forward to work with.

Here is an example of the Relay Symbol I created. It can be arrayed as many times as needed by 1/4" and adjusted to suit your needs. Also There is an Info parameter that turns on Labels for entering data in the view instead of the properties which makes things a little simpler. Then can be turned off for Printing. It is in 2011 format.