Always problems with serious projects...

[dpasa]

For small and typical projects like houses Revit is OK.
I didn't have any training on Revit but I don't think this has to do with what I will describe.

I have a property of 18.000m2 and I want to make a mass model of a hotel-kasino of 1200m2, then 800m2 Restaurant and cafeteria, studios, night club etc...
All these will be connected with roads and small gardens and pavements... etc...

I guess you understand that my first problem was with the site creation... Since it is only the presentation of the idea and not official drawings, I decided to use subregions for the roads... See attachment 001.jpg
No matter what I do, I cannot recreate the perimeter of the elipse like it is not there...
I want to place a small wall there, all around the street to protect the plants and to keep the road clean from leaves and mud and...
I cannot select the boundary of the subregion to place the wall, I cannot find the center of the elipse to use it to make a new one for my walls etc.


I start with the main building, the kasino...
Generally I don't like Revit's mass modeling but it worked this time...
I just can't make a glazed roof as I want to... See 002.jpg.
I cannot place the grid lines like this, and this is the correct thing to do...
So, I have to use this stupid word again, "workaround"... Can you think of any ?

I really don't understand why this has to be so difficult... Why this has to be so different than any other modeling application... Why Revit has to be so different than any other Autodesk's modeling application...
I have read that the best solution is to write Revit's code from the begining, changing everything, keeping only the general idea and the users wishlist... I think this is true... Probably something is not working anymore... it has to be re-created from scratch.

Anyone in this forum knows that I don't belong to HRUG (Happy Revit User Group)
I am sure that Revit is the best of all similar apps... But I guess there has to be more progress and faster...

[luigi]

In regards to the subregion, It really isn't that difficult....

Fact: you cannot select the subregion boundary
Fact: the subregion boundary is created in sketch mode
Fact: lines inside the sketch mode are lines

Solution: enter sketch mode, select the lines, and copy-clip, then exit sketch mode and paste to current (make sure you are in the site plan/floor plan view before pasting....

Result, you will get model lines in your site plan/floor plan. Use these lines to your advantage in anything you need....pick them when placing your walls....

hint for other related issues....sometimes you want to subregions that share the same exact edge....well copy clip the sketch lines from inside one boundary into another

Related to your glazed roof....need to see it in 3d...is it flat or sloped...did you create it with regular roof tools and then converted into glazing, or did you use curtain system? It makes a difference...

BTW, I have used Revit now for a 40,000+ sf building with the whole site, and with a 22,000+ sf with the whole site (only subregions, as I needed the site for only 3d views and site plan....) but I also worked on a project where I had 3 existing 3-4 story buildings, a 3 story hotel/resort (not typical architecture) connecting the 2 buildings, a 2 story restaurant, and a underground spa in a very large site with many contours....and by large, I mean very large.... I also worked on a large site in a cemetary that contained a dozen or so catacombs and 500+ urns..... These last 2 projects were done in Poland, and I don't remember the exact m2 of each project....

Take care,


For small and typical projects like houses Revit is OK.
I didn't have any training on Revit but I don't think this has to do with what I will describe.

I have a property of 18.000m2 and I want to make a mass model of a hotel-kasino of 1200m2, then 800m2 Restaurant and cafeteria, studios, night club etc...
All these will be connected with roads and small gardens and pavements... etc...

I guess you understand that my first problem was with the site creation... Since it is only the presentation of the idea and not official drawings, I decided to use subregions for the roads... See attachment 001.jpg
No matter what I do, I cannot recreate the perimeter of the elipse like it is not there...
I want to place a small wall there, all around the street to protect the plants and to keep the road clean from leaves and mud and...
I cannot select the boundary of the subregion to place the wall, I cannot find the center of the elipse to use it to make a new one for my walls etc.


I start with the main building, the kasino...
Generally I don't like Revit's mass modeling but it worked this time...
I just can't make a glazed roof as I want to... See 002.jpg.
I cannot place the grid lines like this, and this is the correct thing to do...
So, I have to use this stupid word again, "workaround"... Can you think of any ?

I really don't understand why this has to be so difficult... Why this has to be so different than any other modeling application... Why Revit has to be so different than any other Autodesk's modeling application...
I have read that the best solution is to write Revit's code from the begining, changing everything, keeping only the general idea and the users wishlist... I think this is true... Probably something is not working anymore... it has to be re-created from scratch.

Anyone in this forum knows that I don't belong to HRUG (Happy Revit User Group)
I am sure that Revit is the best of all similar apps... But I guess there has to be more progress and faster...

[twiceroadsfool]

BTW, I have used Revit now for a 40,000+ sf building with the whole site, and with a 22,000+ sf with the whole site (only subregions, as I needed the site for only 3d views and site plan....) but I also worked on a project where I had 3 existing 3-4 story buildings, a 3 story hotel/resort (not typical architecture) connecting the 2 buildings, a 2 story restaurant, and a underground spa in a very large site with many contours....and by large, I mean very large.... I also worked on a large site in a cemetary that contained a dozen or so catacombs and 500+ urns..... These last 2 projects were done in Poland, and I don't remember the exact m2 of each project....

Take care,

X2.

I would love more simplistic site tools, that do more... But the bottom line is for 3d presentations and drawings, ive been able to use the sub regions in the same fashion very effectively. We did a schematic massing model of an entire Lifestyle center, complete with roads, plantings, buildings, parking garages, and a hotel tower... Plus two walkthroughs. It took less than a day to put it all together from nothing, including the (shaded view) walkthroughs...

Its just a matter of figuring out how the effectively use the different tools in the software. Thats been an issue in every modeling program ive used to date.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I didn't have any training on Revit but I don't think this has to do with what I will describe.
.

I beg to differ with you but training, experience and an understading of the software has a great deal to do with what you may be having problems with.

Revit is like any other piece of software. it can't do everything. You happen to have picked a form (the ellipse) that Revit has a little trouble with. You won't be able to do it as a true ellipse because you won' t be able to trim the boundray where the driveways come in to the ellipse o use those lines to create your walls.
You can create the boundaries using a series of arcs, circles or tangent arcs. I would suggest the use of ref planes as guides and to ensure the layout is symmetrical (if that's what you're after)
To create your walls, you are correct, you won't be able to pick them off the sub-region. But, you have already drawn those lines so you can copy them to the clipboard while you are editing the sub-region sketch. Close the sketch and Paste Aligned to the view. You now have model lines you can use to create your walls by using the pick option. In fact you can create all the walls with two taps of the tab key and two mouse clicks.

Your roof problem is a simple roof by footprint. Draw the two arcs, and be sure that only one of the arcs is set to define a slope. Finish the sketch and go to the type properties of the roof. Decide how you need your roof mullions divided (a fixed spacing or a fixed number of segments) and then enter the appropriate value in the instance parameters.

Be patient. Keep coming here seeking answers (OK, sometimes they are workarounds ;)) to the things you have not had the chance to explore yet and it will come.
Good luck.

[dpasa]

Very much obliged for such detailed answers...Thank you all!
I must say that I am not very patient... I love working with Revit, I hate to seek for workarounds... I would never complain if I had at least many import/export options. That way, I would work with MoI for example, and import directly as 3ds, 3dm or obj into Revit.

I keep trying but the deadlines are so pressing that my only priority is to get the job done.
I wish I could solve everything with Revit...
But, I must say that I stand to what I said before... I think that Revit has to be very much improved, even if it means to re-write it from the begining


As for the roof, which was easy of course, I don't understand what went wrong, I was doing the same thing but didn't work... It does now...
Actually the initial shape was not like that, it was more like a freeform sweep mass divided by some beams in misc heights, made in MoI3d.

Thanks again

[twiceroadsfool]

I agree and would re-emphasize what Dimitri said in his post. I think if you seek some in depth training to learn which tools work for certain situations, and which ways you should use all of the tools for efficiency sake, youll struggle less with deadlines and Revit cramping your style.

We're yet to miss a deadline working in a pretty schedule agressive retail construction market, and im also well known for "over-modeling," or at least... Over-complicating the model, hehehehe.

Revit may need improvement, but i think youll find that many people (myself obviously included) will strongly disagree with you on the necessity for Revit to be "started over."

I think a lot of the difficulty you always describe stems from rules: Objects, being object oriented, have rules. You seem much more adept working in free face modeling programs, where nothing is object oriented, per se. If nothing is an object of a type (implying rules) then you are free to do as you wish. Simply meeting with some training consultants or power users that can teach you the faster ways to go with the rules and still get your projects out on time would go a long way.

The operators in our office were always seeking ways around the rules, and were constantly ending up behind the eight ball. As they learn more and more about how to use the proper tools for each task, they get faster, and they say the work is actually EASIER than using the methods they were trying before.

Give it time, and some more instruction... Thats my two cents. :)

[dpasa]

I agree and would re-emphasize what Dimitri said in his post. I think if you seek some in depth training to learn which tools work for certain situations, and which ways you should use all of the tools for efficiency sake, youll struggle less with deadlines and Revit cramping your style.

I guess so, but :
No good prof training available in Greece, at least afaik...



We're yet to miss a deadline working in a pretty schedule agressive retail construction market, and im also well known for "over-modeling," or at least... Over-complicating the model, hehehehe.
Overmodelling... I do this sometimes too but not with Revit...



Revit may need improvement, but i think youll find that many people (myself obviously included) will strongly disagree with you on the necessity for Revit to be "started over."

Start over with the same principles and general idea but I think it would make many things easier... For example, better database handling, get rid of Accurender, better schedules...
It is sometimes more difficult to continue improving something than to start from the begining.



I think a lot of the difficulty you always describe stems from rules: Objects, being object oriented, have rules. You seem much more adept working in free face modeling programs, where nothing is object oriented, per se. If nothing is an object of a type (implying rules) then you are free to do as you wish. Simply meeting with some training consultants or power users that can teach you the faster ways to go with the rules and still get your projects out on time would go a long way.

I have almost no experience on 3d modeling, I like Revit exactly because of the rules... My problem is that Revit can't keep these rules all the time... For example... Revit uses layers for walls but not for ramps...Columns and beams don't have layers too... Walls are always parallel to Z axis...why? We use rails to make floors, ramps to make roof, roof to make floor, floor to make site subregions, etc... These are not rules, these seem to me like "do it as you can" not "make it as you built it".
Also, the lack of communication with other top 3d apps like MAX, Rhino, Maya etc is very bad for us . If we get rid of Accurender, then, no matter which renderer we add to Revit, we have no models to make nice photos... Can we use evermotion collections (MAX,3ds, OBJ, 3DM,...) ??? Noo...

*** Also, 3d modeling is something different.... For example the roof...make a roof model and take a picture of the roof... Roof and walls and everything else maybe, should be real 3d models... For example, the edge of the roof should be 15cm of concrete and 5cm of roof tile = 20 cm . Instead, we see a 20cm slab with a red surface over it...
This IS NOT 3d model, this is a single layer solid with one surface painted.
Can anyone disagree with that?
We don't have 3d sweep tool, working splines, loft tool, array following curve, etc...***



The operators in our office were always seeking ways around the rules, and were constantly ending up behind the eight ball. As they learn more and more about how to use the proper tools for each task, they get faster, and they say the work is actually EASIER than using the methods they were trying before.


That really cancels the "small learning curve" theory ;)

[Philip Manolas]

I guess so, but :
No good prof training available in Greece, at least afaik...


That really cancels the "small learning curve" theory ;)

I have not seen you in any of our trainings or presentations.
Never called us for support.
Neither have seen you taking any lessons in autodesk authorized training centers.

So stop the nagging and dont be shy.

[dpasa]

I have not seen you in any of our trainings or presentations.
Never called us for support.
Neither have seen you taking any lessons in autodesk authorized training centers.

So stop the nagging and dont be shy.

Sorry, did I offend someone? I didn't mean to...
That's what "afaik=as far as I know" means...
After all this forum is great and maybe the best school ever...

Btw, why is it your first post here?
Please explain where you disagree with me? What did I say wrong?
I guess you also missed the part where I say that I like working with Revit... I really do, it's the best comparing to everything else, it is not good enough comparing to what it should be and to what it can be....



P.S.Your renderings are great.... nice work.

[SkiSouth]

I have not seen you in any of our trainings or presentations.
Never called us for support.
Neither have seen you taking any lessons in autodesk authorized training centers.

So stop the nagging and dont be shy.

Welcome to AUGI. If you will re-read the post - there is the caveat that Dpasa added - afaik - or "as far as I know." A better approach might have been to note that your company offers training in Greece, or at least that is one of the underlying themes of your post. Please feel free to continue to contribute, but you might want to check the attitude.

There are issues with site manipulation that for years Revit users have struggled with. Dpasa's frustrations are very much understood from regular users of the software.

[luigi]

We don't have 3d sweep tool, working splines, loft tool, array following curve, etc...***


Actually we do have 3d sweep tool....it can be 3d only if you don't choose to "sketch" your path...but if you "pick" your path, you have 3d sweep tool

So if some geometry is created that has the edges of your path created, and it forms a continuous line (in 3D), then you can "pick" those edges and your profile will follow the 3D path... The geometry can be a void, so that you don't see it....(See attached images)



*** Also, 3d modeling is something different.... For example the roof...make a roof model and take a picture of the roof... Roof and walls and everything else maybe, should be real 3d models... For example, the edge of the roof should be 15cm of concrete and 5cm of roof tile = 20 cm . Instead, we see a 20cm slab with a red surface over it...

isn't what you are describing here something that is dealt with a roof fascia? Just Create a profile to match what the roof tile needs to be, and use Modelling/Host Sweep/Roof Fascia and highlight one roof edge, hit tab to select ALL the edges and then select.....now all of your roof edges have the roof tile.....make sure you apply the proper material to the object, so it looks correct when cut, etc... The edge of the roof sketch needs to be in the proper location, so that the end of the roof fascia alignes where you want it....So it doesn't need to be a single layer with paint....if done correctly, it is modeled the way it is built...


Sorry Dpasa....I know this above was a generalization to prove your point...but I had to share a solution to that issue you refered to....

Take care, and I hope things work out for you....

[luigi]

Example of Roof Fascia - as the 5cm tile on 15 cm concrete

[dpasa]

@luigi :

GREAT TIPS!!!!!

I know that there are hundrends of tips that can do the work... I know that I am not a great Revit user.... I just hate workarounds especially when I choose an application like Revit where everything has a name, properties etc...

Anyway, I hope we get more soon....

[Teresa.Martin]

Welcome to AUGI. If you will re-read the post - there is the caveat that Dpasa added - afaik - or "as far as I know." A better approach might have been to note that your company offers training in Greece, or at least that is one of the underlying themes of your post. Please feel free to continue to contribute, but you might want to check the attitude.

There are issues with site manipulation that for years Revit users have struggled with. Dpasa's frustrations are very much understood from regular users of the software.


Yes! There are many, many online resources for online training! Cadalyst has great tutorials, as does Augi. Many firms, including mine now offer online web classes for anyone whom wants to tune in. Training does not have to be come in and sit at a desk for 8 hours anymore. There are tons of options available. We actually do teach an online class for site tools (Revit 201: Site Tools) for anyone interested.

Best regards and Happy Thanksgiving (for those of you whom celebrate it!)