Door Families with Nested Panels?

[Scott Hopkins]

I'm considering making all of my future door families with nested 3D door panel families. It promises to make door family creation much quicker. Just create a new door panel family and swap it into your basic door family, and voila - instant new door family. I've also been toying with making the door trim and the 2D-door-swing nested families as well.

However with all these nested parts, my families are getting a bit big and a little sluggish. Are there others who are grappling with this issue? What is the best way to go about it? Is it better to keep all your door families as individual families for size and speed, or nest components within families for ease of creation?

[mlgatzke]

Is it better to keep all your door families as individual families for size and speed, or nest components within families for ease of creation?
I vote "B". I do this with my door families. Your families will be a little more sluggish, yes, but the benefit of versatility is much more valuable. I'm seeing that nesting within families can really perform magic.

[adegnan]

I vote "B". I do this with my door families. Your families will be a little more sluggish, yes, but the benefit of versatility is much more valuable. I'm seeing that nesting within families can really perform magic.
Well I am moving that way too. Perfect topic in which for me to post. I did a presentation for our local user group today and created this tutorial which I hope will be at least somewhat helpful for any of you interested.

The PDF is the tutorial file, and the zip's are the supporting RFA files.

[PeterJ]

Well I am moving that way too. Perfect topic in which for me to post. I did a presentation for our local user group today and created this tutorial which I hope will be at least somewhat helpful for any of you interested.

The PDF is the tutorial file, and the zip's are the supporting RFA files.
Nice tutorial, Abe.

I have found that the family models do become quite large but at the kind of project you are working on, family housess to, I'm guessing, 10,000 square feet that isn't becoming a problem. If you had a commercial project which might have the same window repeat 100 times I think you might find it becoming a problem.

[Scott Hopkins]

Abe and Mike, - thanks for the input. I am going to join the club and nest everything!

Abe - Nice tutorial. I noticed that you built your door families with the door frames visible in plan view. The cut of the opening on your door families extends past the edge of the door all the way to the edges of the rough opening. This seems like a good approach, because then your rough opening sizes are linked to your frame sizes.

Maybe I am just set in my ways, but I typically don't show door frames in plan view. If it is a steel frame in a CMU wall then I will show it, but residential frames are usually so thin that the lines representing them bleed together with the wall lines (see attached sketch). The best scenario would be to find a way to have the wall poche extend all the wall to the edge of the door panel in coarse view but then have the wall cut back to the rough opening in fine views. I have struggled unsuccessfully to find a solution to this issue. Unfortunately voids cutting geometry currently can't be turned on and off or controlled with family visibility parameters. The shim space at doors and windows is also a problematic element to contend with.

The doors supplied in the Revit Library kind of skirt around this issue. They have trim surrounding the doors but don't have an actual frame as part of the family. Not a very elegant solution, but one I guess I will probably stick with for now. To solve the issue of the missing door frame in 3D views, I use a sweep that is only visible in 3d view and sits just inside of the door opening. It completes the look of the opening in 3D views and it is very difficult to tell that the opening sizes has shrunk just a little bit. (see attached sketch)

I can see advantage/disadvantages to both Revit methods of dealing with door frames and I am torn between the two. For me, I guess the most important thing is that 1/4" coarse scale plan view looks correct.

[PeterJ]

Scott

Have you looked at using different conditions in different detail levels? I have done this with one or two windows so that the frame shows in fine, shows in simplified form in medium and doesn't show in coarse, it works well and you shouldn't find that you model three conditions becasue much of it can be achieved with symbolic lines rather than 3D

[Martin P]

I have completely gone the way of option B.... I have found a way to speed up the process even more. If you just call all the door panels "Panel" and save all the different types into their own folders. Then just load them in to your nesting family and they will simply replace the "panel" family that is there and take on all of the width etc etc paramaters you have set up - you do very little to finish it off.

[adegnan]

Abe and Mike, - thanks for the input. I am going to join the club and nest everything!

Abe - Nice tutorial. I noticed that you built your door families with the door frames visible in plan view. The cut of the opening on your door families extends past the edge of the door all the way to the edges of the rough opening. This seems like a good approach, because then your rough opening sizes are linked to your frame sizes.

Maybe I am just set in my ways, but I typically don't show door frames in plan view. If it is a steel frame in a CMU wall then I will show it, but residential frames are usually so thin that the lines representing them bleed together with the wall lines (see attached sketch). The best scenario would be to find a way to have the wall poche extend all the wall to the edge of the door panel in coarse view but then have the wall cut back to the rough opening in fine views. I have struggled unsuccessfully to find a solution to this issue. Unfortunately voids cutting geometry currently can't be turned on and off or controlled with family visibility parameters. The shim space at doors and windows is also a problematic element to contend with.

The doors supplied in the Revit Library kind of skirt around this issue. They have trim surrounding the doors but don't have an actual frame as part of the family. Not a very elegant solution, but one I guess I will probably stick with for now. To solve the issue of the missing door frame in 3D views, I use a sweep that is only visible in 3d view and sits just inside of the door opening. It completes the look of the opening in 3D views and it is very difficult to tell that the opening sizes has shrunk just a little bit. (see attached sketch)

I can see advantage/disadvantages to both Revit methods of dealing with door frames and I am torn between the two. For me, I guess the most important thing is that 1/4" coarse scale plan view looks correct.
Hey Scott. I've questioned my components/drafting methodology the same way that you have and not come up with a solution either. I have a little more flexibility because 95% of what I design is to be built by my own company, so I can fudge the standards a bit! One way would be to cheat the jamb, like you just showed, say to 1/4" thick and cheat the void opening by that 1/4" which I think would not be visible in plan.

I think I turned all the 3d geometry off in plan view and just used symbolic lines to trace over my jamb.

One advantage of showing the rough opening is that it does help graphically represent the true size that is necessary for a door to fit in a space... although I could take that one step farther and show the width of the casing! Sometimes with the narrow hallways, we end up ripping casing if we aren't careful, especially on a remodel when some things are beyond our control.

I remember reading someone's post about a way to make the doors automatically offset from an adjacent wall by a certain amount so that the casing would fit correctly? Anyone remember?

[Scott Hopkins]

Scott

Have you looked at using different conditions in different detail levels? I have done this with one or two windows so that the frame shows in fine, shows in simplified form in medium and doesn't show in coarse, it works well and you shouldn't find that you model three conditions becasue much of it can be achieved with symbolic lines rather than 3DPeter,

Yes you are right, you can control the visibility of the frame from coarse to medium and fine views. My problem still remains the opening cut. Either you cut the opening to the edge of the door panel or you cut the opening all the way to the edge of the rough opening. There are difficulties with both methods. Which way do you do it?

[Scott Hopkins]

I have completely gone the way of option B.... I have found a way to speed up the process even more. If you just call all the door panels "Panel" and save all the different types into their own folders. Then just load them in to your nesting family and they will simply replace the "panel" family that is there and take on all of the width etc etc paramaters you have set up - you do very little to finish it off.
Martin - good idea. Another option I have been investigating is creating one huge Mega-door family with all of your nested panels and frames placed inside it. Then to create a new door, you simply purge all of the frames and panels that you are not using and save what is left over. In fact, given an API, I could see a future application here. A simple visual catalog of the available options combined with an automated purging script and you would have it.

[Prodev75]

I'm considering making all of my future door families with nested 3D door panel families. It promises to make door family creation much quicker. Just create a new door panel family and swap it into your basic door family, and voila - instant new door family. I've also been toying with making the door trim and the 2D-door-swing nested families as well.

However with all these nested parts, my families are getting a bit big and a little sluggish. Are there others who are grappling with this issue? .......

Using nested families for the panel gets my vote. Haven't notice to much difference in speed.
The door trim and 2d door swing as nested families :( . I don't know if I agree with that. That's alot of parameters you need to connect together and probably why its running so sluggish.

[sbrown]

I include the door swing symbol lines in the panel family, not sep.

[Scott Hopkins]

I include the door swing symbol lines in the panel family, not sep.
I meant the 2D representation of the Door Panel - I use nested 2D panels in my door families because they work best for variable swing angle doors in plan view.