NEED HELP AGAINST ArchiCAD!!!!!!!

[Merlin]

OK, Gang!....
I'm in need of some experienced help!.....I know there's been posts before about this, BUT this is my situation....
My office is about to make the change to fully 3D modelling and documentation via these types of packages. The office has a couple of licences for ArchiCAD. Several people here know something about it but to date it has only been used for presentation. Those who know it, of course have a bias for ArchiCAD. I was asked to evaluate REVIT and had a "teach myself" attempt at ArchiCAD previously. I was amazed at how much easier I was able to learn REVIT. This alone to me is a major reason for heading REVIT's way. Obviously though I can't compare against the ArchiCAD afficianados sufficiently...anything I say I can do, the response of course is "oh, well, we can do that and we can also......"

I still feel REVIT is the way for us to go but I can't come up with enough valid overiding points to convince the powers-that-be yet.

any tips?

regards
John Mc

[SkiSouth]

no office should run software that a principal cannot run - Set the decision maker down (as this decision will be based on money (time) and quality.

Run through a building creation - 4 walls, roof, doors windows. Cut a section, display elevations. Use a template (setup previously and so declared) and plot your project in less than say 15 minutes. Now change the wall types and replot again in 5 minutes.

Now have him do the same project with you guiding him (again about an hours time to plot). Now have him change the wall types and replot.

Repeat process with ArchiCAD and the principal - In each case the principal should not have any experience with either software - as it will be for most of your firm it sounds like.

[Scott D Davis]

If you follow skisouth's advice and run Revit out of the box, and ArchiCAD out of the box, I think you will find Revit to be superior. ArchiCAD has an open API, and at least a few 'add-on' programs are needed to make it do some simple things, like stairs. (ArchiStair is free, but its still an add-on, and thus must keep up with the development cycle. Will ArchiStair work with ArchiCAD 9, soon to be released?) Rendering in ArchiCAD is done via an add-on. In some cases, add-ons are good because they allow third party developers to create programs that work woth ArchiCAD, but for the most part Revit is 'complete' out of the box and really hasn't required any outside development.

ArchicAD is developed to run on both PC's and Macs, which many people like. It also means the programmers have to do double-duty and make sure the code works the same on both platforms. Some might say that this could slow down the development cycle. If your office runs Macs, well then maybe ArchiCAD is for you. If you are on PC's, I'd lean towards Revit.

Revit has the financial backing of Autodesk, one of the largest software companies in the industry. Being an Autodesk product assures continued compatibility with other Autodesk software, including AutoCAD, and maybe more in the future. AutoCAD DWG compatibility is absolutely essential.

Revit is easy to learn and use, as you have already discovered. It is very intuitive, and is programmed to work how Architects work, because it has Architects developing it.

ArchiCAD has over 20 years of experience in the 3D CAD/BIM market. Revit has 5. ArchiCAD should be widely accepted and an industry standard by now, shouldn't it? Revit in my opinion has created more of a buzz in 5 years, and keeps getting better with every release.

Building content in ArchiCAD will required learning a programming language called GDL.. Yes, add-on programs will help build the code for you, but to truely harness the power of ArchicAD, you will need to learn GDL. Are you a programming firm, or an architectural firm?

Go over to http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/ and read their forums. You will find out plenty about what ArchiCAD can and can't do. Just recently, there was a thread discussing the procedure to put a perspective view on a sheet in PlotMaker (another separate program to lay out sheets). It involved several steps to do....in Revit, drag the perspective on the sheet. Done.

Revit has bi-directional parametrics. You can make a change in a schedule, and the model will update.

ArchiCAD doesn't assure full drawing coordination. In ArchiCAD, the user can 'break' the links to views, so they are no longer 'live' views of the model. If a change is made to the model, the view wont update. This leads to coordination errors. In Revit, you will never have to second guess that a detail callout is filled out correctly.

There is so much more, and I will try to add them here as I think of them. There are many Revit users here that have a lot of ArchiCAD experience before coming to Revit, so hopefully they will add to this. I have zero ArchiCAD experience, except what I have learn from their newsgroup. If I have mis-stated anything here about ArchiCAD, I will gladly welcome corrections.

[beegee]

I'm a former Archicad user and I think Scott has got the main points down very well.

It sounds as though what you're up against is the office hierarchy who know and use Archicad. It's basic human nature to be comfortable with the things you know and not to what to change. ( unless you're an early adapter type ). So I think the best thing to convince management would be for you to arrange for them to speak with someone in a similar firm to yours using Revit ( preferably one that has switched from Archicad, if you can find one. _ Your Revit reseller may assist with this )

We can give you a lot of ammunition ( as Scott has done ), but in my experience, that will not sway management if they have little or no understanding of the concepts and technicalities. What will sway them is talking first hand to colleagues who are improving their bottom line by using Revit.

[jwilhelm]

After using Revit for two years I went to work for a firm that used Archicad, I gave it my best shot but there is just no comparison to Revit in almost every aspect. The only thing I would say Archicad has over Revit is that its user interface is more evolved (but more complex) forget Archicad, Plotmaker is a nightmare, it is not parameteric, it is not bi-directionally associative, and I have to tell you it is a *%#king nightmare to learn. Do everything you can to convince your people to go with Revit, it is like day and night.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

If all else fails... just print this thread and show it to the partners ;-)

[Scott D Davis]

Here are some more compelling reasons to use Revit.

First, are you currently an AutoCAD based firm? If so, you can upgrade your licenses to Revit Series, which will bundle the latest AutoCAD and Revit together. Then you will have the best of both worlds. Not sure of the specific cost, contact your reseller, but Revit Series will get you both softwares for a STEEP discount. If you purchase ArchiCAD, and still need AutoCAD, your firm will have made two separate full purchases for each copy. Revit Series is perscription based, too, so you will always have upgrades to the new releases of both AutoCAD and Revit.

Here are some great articles to print and show the office managers:

2D to 3D Transition #1 (http://cadalyst.adv100.com/cadalyst/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=90249)

Firms jump head first into new technology (http://cadalyst.adv100.com/cadalyst/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=103573)

Building Model Benefits - DMJM (http://cadalyst.adv100.com/cadalyst/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=114996)

[muttlieb]

Not sure of the specific cost, contact your reseller, but Revit Series will get you both softwares for a STEEP discount.

When I purchased Revit a few weeks ago, I could have bought AutoCad 2005 for an additional $400 with the Revit Series. But even now I can upgrade to the Revit series for only $500. It is a sweet deal.


Revit Series is perscription based, too, so you will always have upgrades to the new releases of both AutoCAD and Revit.

Scott, I think that it is subscription based. When the day comes that we need a prescription for our software, I think we're all in trouble. ;-)

[juggergnat]

The difference between Revit and Archicad is this. Revit has a more robust system for designing and implementing custom families. So if you have a custom window that you want...don't try to buy it, make it. If you have a special light fixture you need, don't look for it on the web...make it. If you have a piece of furniture you want, create it. The library power of Revit is light years beyond Archicad, and for me that was all the difference.

In my opinion Archicad has a better interface, more evolved tools, etc. But try to create your own libaries using GDL. I dare you. Perhaps you are a code programmer, but I am not. Have someone show you how to rapidly create a custom desk, and then place it all over with some basic parametric intelligence. In archicad its all about workarounds...trying to make a slab act like a desktop, etc.

I liked Archicad quite a bit, but the downright pathetic lack of easy family creating was so astounding to me that I dropped in a heartbeat when I realized this. Architecture is all about custom objects.

JG

[arkitect.73172]

Hi guys. First post here. Just to add something to this thread: GET REVIT. The firm I work for currently works in ArchiCAD. It's now a years since we started working with it. Yes: it has its pros and cons. I'm the project manager and tried to convince them to buy ADT because Revit wasn't being sold in Mexico at that time. I had read about Revit since Autodesk bought it, and I was amazed by its power. There were two factors that kept the firm from buying ADT (to upgrade to Revit later when it became available): the first one is obvious... ADT is not what we aimed for, and two (maybe the most important down here)... the price. Graphisoft made a huge discount (don't know exaclty but perhaps 50%) to sell 3 network licenses.
ArchiCAD is fine. Is a robust program and has many tools that make work easy and fast... but believe me when I say it is NOT BIDIRECTIONAL. In the last project I personally did, elevations took about 10 minutes to generate, and another 10 to load into plotmaker. If there was a change, consider an hour and a half just to update four elevations in ArchiCAD and then in plotmaker. GEE!!! I've done simple GDL programming but is a pain right in the ... It has good libraries though.
I now and then open a demo version of Revit 6.0 that an Autodesk reseller handed me just for the personal interest I had during the ADT presentation they made. I was the one who told him about Revit but he didn't know when it was going to be available in Mexico.
Well... IT IS NOW... and when I showed the demo CD to the whole firm, they just knew they had done the wrong purchase.
again.... GET REVIT!!!!!

best regards.

[Marek Brandstatter]

Arkitect.73172 has touched on the crucial differentiator between ArchiCAD and Revit - Revit is 100% BIDIRECTIONAL, ArchiCAD is not.

The Revit mantra "A change anywhere is a change everywhere" does not apply to ArchiCAD. Every single view, sheet, etc in Revit is parametric and updates real-time, hence the name 'REVise InsTantly'. Not so in ArchiCAD, not even close.

Unless Graphisoft undertake a complete overhaul of ArchiCAD's underlying technology and soon - I'm afraid its a one horse race.

[neels]

Worked on ArchiCAD for 4Years and what can I say, I am on Revit for 4 months now and I am faster and better in Revit, The freedom to do what you want (all in one application) is much greater than all the add on's you need in ArchiCAD. Ja the plotmaker is a super tool to ArchiCAD but it is a very difficult add on to master.
If there are any uncertainty's just send an e-mail to Tatjana Dzambazova from AutoDESK
(tatjana.dzambazova@eur.autodesk.com)

[billshorten]

scott, you asked for corrections, so.....

archicad ships with a stair tool, it doesn't need a separate api

archicad has, and always has had, a decent in-built renderer. 3rd party add-ons are available

99% of the time a gdl object in the the library shipped with archicad will be what you need. for the 1% you can fudge things with standard building elements, albeit not parametrically. you certainly don't have to learn gdl to make full use of archicad

yes, you 'can' unlink elevations and sections but if you don't then the views are fully bi-directional

plotmaker is simply a page layout program so it's not bi-directional. it also allows the input of none archicad data. it's possible to print out all drawings directly from archicad if you wish to

bill

[stefan.boeykens]

If you ask the eternal ArchiCAD - Revit question here, then you are sure to get a pro-Revit answer.
If you ask the same question at ArchiCAD-talk, then you get the other answer (apart from one of the users, that goes with the name of Scott...).

As an ArchiCAD user with little Revit experience, I'd say: both can do the job, but not in the same way.

ArchiCAD is mature, it's libraries are powerfull. You can program in GDL (which is not that hard) but you don't have to.
You can program in AutoCAD with Lisp, VBA or C++, but you don't have to.
You can't program in Revit. Is that an advantage? Didn't AutoLisp make AutoCAD that big?

ArchiCAD has plugins but you don't really need any of them. There are very usable ones, though.
I don't have any of them. I also don't have Art*lantis.
Revit doesn't have these plugins, since Revit doesn't have a developers kit available. It's that simple.

Rendering? LightWorks is better then the old rendering engine of ArchiCAD, but it doesn't have radiosity, which is a big limitation. In that regard, Accurender is more appropriate. But I render my ArchiCAD models in 3ds max or Cinema4D and that goes pretty easy, since I can export a textured *.3ds file from ArchiCAD which is directly usable.

ArchiCAD is expensive, but when you sidegrade, you can quote the reseller for a good price.
Of course it is more expensive then sidegrading from Revit, since they are from different companies.

If your office knows & uses ArchiCAD, are you sure that you want to force all the others to switch? I hope that you are pretty fluent in Revit, since they will ask a lot of questions for thing that do work in ArchiCAD. Good luck ;)

If you do the exercise with the boss with one simple house, I'm pretty sure both ArchiCAD & Revit will do the jow in about the same amount of time. And ADT probably too.. (well, let's not exaggerate).

On a personal level, when I started using ArchiCAD, I had the choice between ArchiCAD, ADT, Allplan, Triforma & Bricsnet. I chose ArchiCAD for it's "Virtual Building". If Revit would have been available then, it would have been a tough choice. If I had to redo my choice today, I wouldn't be that sure anymore. I like ArchiCAD 9, but I notice that Revit is developing pretty fast and it surely won't take 20 years to reach maturity...

Finishing a construction drawing in ArchiCAD still requires a lot of 2D-drawing, but I'm pretty sure the same goes for Revit as well: real details are not following from the model (unless you put it in the 3D-model).

And ArchiCAD is cross-platform. Is that important for you? Probably not if you're on Windows (when you use AutoCAD or Revit). If you're on a Mac it's very important. And if you will switch to Linux... That depends. At current, I only know of Briscad that runs there, using Wine.

All in all, you won't get much non-biased opinions here (or elsewhere).

Good luck in finding the right tool for the job.

[geoffroy.magnan]

If you ask the eternal ArchiCAD - Revit question here, then you are sure to get a pro-Revit answer.
If you ask the same question at ArchiCAD-talk, then you get the other answer (apart from one of the users, that goes with the name of Scott...).

You, here !

Remember you're the one that told me recently that Revit was becoming VERY interesting these times :wink:

Seems that the "Regie der Gebouwen" won't switch from ADT to ArchiCAD, but might give a try at Revit... I said "might" :wink:

[ppelegrin]

Finishing a construction drawing in ArchiCAD still requires a lot of 2D-drawing, but I'm pretty sure the same goes for Revit as well: real details are not following from the model (unless you put it in the 3D-model).


And THIS IS a primary reason to consider Revit.

Revit, to my knowledge, is the first BIM/3D tool that actually delivers on the promise of utilising a 3D model so efficiently, and still keep all 2D and 3D information co-ordinated (real objects and annotation). With Revit, all 2D drafting, in any view, is associative and parametric, part of the single 'model' whether 2D or 3D.

I am sure many users here will remember when as new '3D' users they experienced the 'model everything' either for all the information required in the drafting output later, or simply because with new toys, we played with them. The problems associated with this was that jobs were taking longer, some of the modelling was very fiddly, substantially increased file sizes etc. Also I might add that some items modelled in 3D did not always 'look' the way we wanted them to look in a 2D view/working drawing.

Moving ahead, many systems attempted to fix these problems by building in efficient '2D' drafting tools, effectively placing unintelligent, unassociated line work over either a live '3D view' or into 2D 'style' drawing generated from the model. Now we all know the issues related to this, we still had the normal problems associated with 2D flat CAD systems, errors crept into different drawings, the time required in manually 'checking' after changes were made. In some cases we found that jobs took longer to complete than previously used 2D systems.

And the reason for going into '3D' was???

So in summary, yes we believe that Revit is more efficient than any other system on market, and it is because of the complete integrity and co-ordination that this application stands out.

Mr John Mc, you may want to speak to your local Revit re-seller for help on this, specifically when they haven't had much as much exposure to Revit as they have to ArchiCAD.

Regards P Pelegrin

[ppelegrin]

To Stefan,



If your office knows & uses ArchiCAD, are you sure that you want to force all the others to switch? I hope that you are pretty fluent in Revit, since they will ask a lot of questions for thing that do work in ArchiCAD. Good luck ;)


Yes we would encourage John Mc to do just that. Surely you cannot deny that most ArchiCAD users recommended the same thing to an office using AutoCAD. Now in hindsight, and maybe hyprocritically, with Revit, AutoCAD users can now agree ArchiCAD was 'better' and 'smarter' than using AutoCAD.

If there are gains to be made, it makes sense to switch to Revit. Accepting that for many ArchiCAD users, especially the more experienced users, are going to 'fight' and argue for their own preferred system - all sounds a little like an AutoCAD user to me - but are you going to argue that the whole world should stay on AutoCAD?

Regards
P Pelegrin

[Wes Macaulay]

This is an interesting thread... it's great to have experienced ArchiCAD users here who can a) dispel inaccurate facts regarding ArchiCAD and b) who can tell us how ArchiCAD works apples to apples. Frankly, I hope that people reading this who are considering Revit or ArchiCAD will seriously consider ArchiCAD as well as Revit. ArchiCAD does not deserve to be marginalized as the huge Autodesk juggernaut plows over everything in its path. If people are beginning to use Revit now, doesn't that just validate ArchiCAD more? They were one of the first, if not the first, to pioneer this idea.

I don't deny the technical weaknesses of ArchiCAD - making your drawings bidirectional may increase your plotting and layout time... I don't know; I haven't used ArchiCAD in four years and can't remember! But if ArchiCAD users watch Revit and get some demo CDs of the software, they will be able to tell Graphisoft what they want that Revit has.

And if you're a Mac user and don't want to jump into the PC pool, ArchiCAD is your only choice.

[rkalocay]

any tips?



Resign mate, that's the best, I suppose, in your narrow minded little world.

[mlgatzke]

Resign mate, that's the best, I suppose, in your narrow minded little world.Hmmm; not only late to the party, but wearing a troll costume as well. Not a good impression on your first post.

[Merlin]

Resign mate, that's the best, I suppose, in your narrow minded little world.


"Narrow minded"?!?!?!
Well, I suppose I'd best demonstrate my "narrow-minded" attitude but expressing that we all are free to say our piece....."mate"!

[stefan.boeykens]

Now this thread is pulled up from the dust, wouldn't it be nice to have some follow-up?

How is the ArchiCAD-only office coping? Did Revit get a chance? Did ArchiCAD proved to be usable in the end? Or did everyone just go along and keep doing whatever they were doing?

[Merlin]

Now this thread is pulled up from the dust, wouldn't it be nice to have some follow-up?

How is the ArchiCAD-only office coping? Did Revit get a chance? Did ArchiCAD proved to be usable in the end? Or did everyone just go along and keep doing whatever they were doing?

Well.....
The story unfolded thus.....It looked like the collective minds were made up before Revit was acquired...(yes...in favour of ArchiCAD).....Revit's capabilities proved unexpected and so delayed this decision as it threw doubt into their choice.The reason for the ultimate decision could be speculated for ages but, bottom line, ArchiCAD updates were acquired while continuing my Revit license....and that's where it stays, at present.....but I'm moving to another firm who aren't BIM users (....yet! ;-) )
So thanks for all the tips....it was a valiant debate against an already made decision..(heavy sigh)!

cheers,
John Mc

[Wes Macaulay]

Sorry to hear you're leaving -- would have been nice to hear how an ArchiCAD implementation was going. As for Rob Kalocay, he's as sharp tongued on the ArchiCAD forum so it would seriously be unfair to expect anything different over here. I've quite enjoyed his posts on the ArchiCAD forum (remembering when he called Scott Davis DARLING? :lol: )

[JamesVan]

Hmmm; not only late to the party, but wearing a troll costume as well. Not a good impression on your first post.

Resign mate, that's the best, I suppose, in your narrow minded little world.
Please refrain from personal, derogatory remarks in these forums. This thread has become quite informative and we'd like to maintain a healthy and open relationship with those who participate in both the Autodesk and Graphisoft forums.

[Merlin]

Sorry to hear you're leaving -- would have been nice to hear how an ArchiCAD implementation was going. As for Rob Kalocay, he's as sharp tongued on the ArchiCAD forum so it would seriously be unfair to expect anything different over here. I've quite enjoyed his posts on the ArchiCAD forum (remembering when he called Scott Davis DARLING? :lol: )
OH, I'm still going to be hanging around in here....I still believe that Revit will be a continuing part of my professional software knowledge. I do some contract work on the side from time to time working with Revit there, and it's my main tool for University Design presentations.

[Merlin]

Please refrain from personal, derogatory remarks in these forums. This thread has become quite informative and we'd like to maintain a healthy and open relationship with those who participate in both the Autodesk and Graphisoft forums.
Thanks for that James. I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw that as an unnecessary comment.

As for the comparisons, I think ArchiCAD has come a long way....particularly in its user-friendliness. I also think Revit is now in a "peer" ranking and so the development of it and ArchiCAD shall increase exponentially as they compete against each other....In that scenario everyone's a winner!

From what I've seen of both packages now, it'll come down to how your office operates and how easliy the software can be integrated into office procedures. My old office is not the only ones that are continuing their Autocad liscences. In that case the importing/exporting is far superior by Revit......but like I said, it'll come down to office practices and procedures in many cases

John Mc

[hand471037]

Revit's capabilities proved unexpected and so delayed this decision as it threw doubt into their choice.

I'm currently helping out two different firms right now with Revit pilot projects. One has been on ArchiCAD for many years and the other had decided to run a pilot project on ArchiCAD over Revit (at the time). Both are now turning to Revit because ArchiCAD wasn't able to get them where they needed to go.

Both seem to have a long list of complaints about ArchiCAD, complaints that Revit eather solves (no plotmaker, better UI, really bidirectional) or because it lacks faults it doesn't have to begin with (layers, overtly complex and silly IMHO custom content creation).

One is heavily using the built-in collision detection along with solid models out of ABS. The other is very excited about possible future model coordination with things like Revit structural and systems. Both are planning on using gbXML reports. Both are using it as a real BIM system and not just a drafting tool (as they both were mostly using ArchiCAD), and what I mean by that is they are doing complex schedules, calcs, some phasing, some design options, and more within the model to manage the project itself. Leveraging that model into more than just 3D views or a few schedules. And both of these projects are the size of a city block and rather complex.

So from the real-world examples I've seen, ArchiCAD wasn't able to be used as a real BIM solution in a real-world office with 'normal' users. Whereas Revit has, and both firms are very excited about using it more in the future.

Now, you mileage might vary, and this is a very small sample so take it with a grain of salt. But I've now seen twice where a large, intelligent, and skilled design firm choose Revit over ArchiCAD simply because of what Revit was able to do, and what Revit allowed them to do. Sure they wish that Revit had a few features from ArchiCAD at times, but in the end they are still choosing Revit, simply because of the work it allows them to do that they couldn't do (for whatever reason) with ArchiCAD.

So to all those out there trying to figure out which way to go, ArchiCAD or Revit, I say that you should really try out both within your firm. Get a real-world measure of how the tools fit into your workflow, and ignore most of the marketing from the companies that make these tools.

[knurrebusk]

I'm currently helping out two different firms right now with Revit

So to all those out there trying to figure out which way to go, ArchiCAD or Revit, I say that you should really try out both within your firm. Get a real-world measure of how the tools fit into your workflow, and ignore most of the marketing from the companies that make these tools.



I´m a long time Archicad user that discovered just this!
Still I´ll demand better stuff from the Revit team, everybody demand something from me.

[aaronrumple]

Coherency....?

[knurrebusk]

Coherency....?


No, not in a big demand anymore.

But, I do deliver fast changing alternatives when they are needed.
Together with unpredictable suggestions that works for now.