Roofs with individual trim, overhang etc

[J-G]

This may bother some people, but I really liked a lot of the way roofs worked in ADT. Revit is better in that you can create sweeps (nice for swooped roofs) and use sloped arrows, but it still needs to be improved.

One thing that it needs is the ability to defne roof planes individually and then miter them. The slope arrows could be used for this but they are too picky. In ADT there was a pivot point or line along the roofs edge. This was basically where the roof was defined - Height and Pitch - then I could drag the top or bottom of the roof to where I wanted. And in fact this is how roofs are defined in the real world! A roof bears on a wall or beam (pivot point) and then is projected at a defined slope until it is terminated or meets another plane at a hip, valley, or ridge. In the same way that roofs project to a ridge we need to be able to adjust the overhange as well.

Basically slope arrows should be working like this, but they don't. They want to be at the "edge" of the roof, but we don't define roofs at the end of the overhang because it varies. We define roofs at the bearing point. So here it is:

1) Slope arrows need to be able to create the pivot point for the roof and they need to be able to be placed in any location on the roof plane so that the designer can control how the roof is defined.

2) Roof joins need to have a miter tool so that I can select an independent roof planes and have the planes join to create my ridge, hip, or valley.

This is my biggest wish so far because the ability to create roofs would really be more intuitive…at least to me, desginer’s, and contractors.
:wink:

[Wes Macaulay]

Jon - when you use the roof tool and select "Pick Walls" and also check the "Extend into Core" checkbox, the underside of the core of the roof assembly will meet at the exterior face of the core of the wall assembly. You can set the height of the roof using the roof's properties.

Revit can do exactly what you want.

[J-G]

That doesn't work the way that it should. Revit sets the roof on the outside edge of the walls. We use seat cuts and vary them based on the pictch/size of rafter. What I am looking for if to have somthing more flexible. The problem is that sure I can draw a slope defining line at my 3 1/2" seat cut but then there is not an overhange. Also I should be able to define the end cut condition of each roof plane seperately. Revit can DO what I want it to, but it takes more time and is not as intuitive as far as the way it is actually going to be built. It could just do things a little better if I could freely define the pivot point. Example: you define a slope arrow set at 8'-1" and you set the tail to the location you want the roof to pivot (for seat cuts it would be 3 1/2" - 5 1/2" from the wall ext typically). Now you can do what ever you want with the roof it is always going to pivot at that point with the specified roof pictch. If you throw in the ability to define the cut angel for each roof edge, and also the ability to miter roof edges together - then you have a much more flexible way of working.

[Scott D Davis]

What if roofs were treated more like walls? What I mean, is that you would draw the roof planes individually with slope parameters, and then the roof planes would 'clean-up' as wall intersections do. This would create the valleys, ridges, and hips. Then each plane could have control handles, like walls, that could be gripped and stretched as necessary.

At a minimum, I would like to see roofs 'clean-up' to each other.

[Wes Macaulay]

Jon, are you looking for a bird's mouth cut where the roof meets the wall? Because that WOULD be cool...

[gregcashen]

And much needed!

[J-G]

Scott the wall idea is pretty close to what I am talking about. If each roof plane is treated as a seperate plane it offers much more flexibility. Then you select the roof edges you want to trim, merge, etc. and the individual planes are projected adn mitered at a ridge, hip, valley, etc. It really would be a little more like walls, and the grip idea is nice too. Revit already has the slope arrow that cna define the pivot point, if they added the ability to join/miter it would be really nice.

The birds mouth cut would be nice, but it isn't even that important to me. What is important is that I can set the roof bearing/pivot point to the exact location and height that I want.

I like Revit a lot, but from other programs you are bound to find little things that could be included to make Revit a more powerful program. In ADT 3.3 there was a generic roof modeler which acts somewhat like the one in Revit - that is nice for quick easy roofs, then there was a tool for creating individual roof planes (roof slabs) - each roof slab was independent as far as pitch, end cut, height, and style, and seperate roof slabs could be trimed or mitered together. If somthing like this existed with the intelligence of Revit it would be very nice.

[Steve_Stafford]

Until then you can get a little better control over the pivot point by picking walls when you sketch the roof, then you are presented with a parameter "Rafter or Truss ". This changes where the pivot point is...front of stud (truss) or back of stud. If you just sketch lines instead, this option is not present.

I definitely wish we could define a roof that uses 2x12 rafters, bears on a 2x6 stud wall and is trimmed to 5.5 deep and plumb cut for the eave. Further that on the rake edge I could "modeled" the rake lookouts and the true roof thickness there all in the same roof object. (Like attached)

[J-G]

Thanks for the tip on selecting walls Steve. I had not used the Rafter or Truss option before, that adds one more trick to the bag.

[PeterJ]

How often do you need to show the birdsmouth? Isn't this just what edit cut profile is for when working with the section?

[Steve_Stafford]

Good for sections perhaps...but not for the model or elevations. If that's how a raftered roof is detailed (always true for my previous office) then it doesn't look right in model or elevations. Small potatoes to some, big Potahtoes to others.

[PeterJ]

If that is a problem surely the entire roof build up is going to be incorrect for you and you should be attaching rafters to the underside of the membrane layer as a hosted family.

If you did that then your birdsmouth could be modelled parametrically.

[Yman]

I create 2 different roofs. 1 roof for the rafter portion abot 3" thick and then a truss portion for the upper part of roof. THen join the 2 roofs together and they look like a single rafter no mater where cut in section and show correct in elevations and 3d views. Takes me about 2 minutes extra time to do this and well worth it. Although, I like Steve's way of doing it like it should be programmed into the software and you just set the parameters like the plumb/ square cut stuff.


Y.

[Yman]

I have to go to extra work on the fascia stuff too. It works great but when you place the fascia it should actually cut a void from the roof edge and you should be able to define a drip overhang from the finish layer material and everything shows fine. Right now I copy the roof up and change properties of the roof and then edit sketch and offset all lines 2" and then finish sketch and then drag the roof back down to the framed roofing structure. Works fine, more time and I lose parametrics though.

Setting the horizontal offset in the instance parameter is fine but the roof shows through it. Like I said, a void is need to show stepped fascia right if it is to stay all 1 roof system.

Y

[PeterJ]

I create 2 different roofs. 1 roof for the rafter portion abot 3" thick and then a truss portion for the upper part of roof. THen join the 2 roofs together and they look like a single rafter no mater where cut in section and show correct in elevations and 3d views. Takes me about 2 minutes extra time to do this and well worth it. Although, I like Steve's way of doing it like it should be programmed into the software and you just set the parameters like the plumb/ square cut stuff.


Y.

Could you post one for me please Chris?

P

[christopher.zoog51272]

I have to go to extra work on the fascia stuff too. It works great but when you place the fascia it should actually cut a void from the roof edge and you should be able to define a drip overhang from the finish layer material and everything shows fine. Right now I copy the roof up and change properties of the roof and then edit sketch and offset all lines 2" and then finish sketch and then drag the roof back down to the framed roofing structure. Works fine, more time and I lose parametrics though.

Setting the horizontal offset in the instance parameter is fine but the roof shows through it. Like I said, a void is need to show stepped fascia right if it is to stay all 1 roof system.

Y

here here, this would be fantastic. Another even better option would be to have roof work like vertically compound walls, where the sheathing and shingle layers could be "unlocked" and told to extend over the fascia, just like in the real world :!:

[gregcashen]

YES PLEASE!! Horizontally Compound Roofs would be great!

[Scott D Davis]

I think the tool for walls and roofs could be treated essentially the same. We need a parameter to slope walls, and we need horizontally compound roofs. When it comes down to it, they are really the same tool. Both have editable structures to make assemblies.

[J-G]

Compound roofs would be great. I think the bird's mouth cut really isn't that important of an issue. It is not too hard to just hide it, and it only displays in sections. What I am looking for is a more powerful to model roofs - namely the ability to define roofs seperatly and the miter them so that you can get you ridges, hips, and valleys.

I have been creting some rafter families which you drop in and arrray. If Revit comes up with a structural side of Revit that had tools for rafters and floor joists then the birds mouth cut could be important. If you define a roof by it's actual bearing point (for us usually 3 1/2" or 5 1/2" from the exterior face of the wall) then a good structural tool would set the rafters at that pivot point and cut around the wall...basically it would then be a parametric deal.

[J-G]

if you have an example of a roof that ws created by joining two roofs together that would be interesting. What I am doing now is creating a type of "inner roof" which goes just to the edge of the wall. I set this as being plum cut (because Revit conrols end cuts by the roof object itself instead of by the edge) then I create another roof that extends out from the exterior of the wall for my overhanges. This way I can vary my overhange easily and use different roofs for different end cut conditions. It would be nice if you could just select the roof edge itself and toggle square/ plum

[PeterJ]

I have done a 'correct' roof before. O cretaed a roof family that was basically the thickness of ties, battens and sarking then I drue int eh reafters one by one as structural elements. It was a little time consuming but quite effective.

We were remodelling the roof so I wanted that level of detail.

P