Window Head Height above Finish Floor

[iru69]

Hard to believe this hasn't been discussed many times before, but I wasn't able to find anything definitive...

The level heights of my floors are set to the top of the sub-floor, per standard construction methods (at least in these parts). I then add a finish floor to that, so that the finish floor is typically +3/4" above the level height.

However, when I place windows, I like the head height to be 80" (as an example) above the finish floor. But if I raise the window to reflect that, the window schedule will show a head height of 80 3/4". I want the window schedule to indicate 80".

Is it possible to achieve this?

For the last few years, I've either set the top of finish floor as the level height or ignored the fact that my windows in elevation were only 79 1/4" above the finish floor... but neither of those options is cutting it anymore.

[Steve_Stafford]

Since the framing for the window is going in long before the finished floor isn't that a more appropriate number than giving them a reference to something that isn't there to measure?

[NKramer]

What Steve says is probably true, but you could also nest a few extra parameters into the family and have the "Head Height" parameter just calc out "Finish Floor Thickness"+"Height Above Finished Floor". You would have to set the Height above finished floor by room/ project though.

The problem that I see with this is that a finished floor is not necessarily constant across an entire building so the elevation could look a little wacky....

Nick

[iru69]

I don't want to tell the builder how to frame it - I just want to to indicate where I expect it when it's finished. Their are specific caveats to that (regarding aligning with adjacent doors and such that I cover with window schedule notes).

So, I'm guessing your suggesting there isn't any way to specifically do what I want?

I've always done it this way (at several firms), but... If I can't do it the way I want (entering in "dumb" info is out of the question), what exactly are you suggesting (and anyone else that wants to chime in)?


Since the framing for the window is going in long before the finished floor isn't that a more appropriate number than giving them a reference to something that isn't there to measure?

[Mr Spot]

Seems a bit odd to me also.

But you could just add an additional level that is at your finished floor level. Then associate your windows to that level. That way they are based from the correct level.

[Steve_Stafford]

...I've always done it this way (at several firms), but... If I can't do it the way I want (entering in "dumb" info is out of the question), what exactly are you suggesting (and anyone else that wants to chime in)?I guess I should have said nothing, sorry.

[iru69]

Steve, I'm not sure if you're sorry that you said something because now I'm asking you how you would do it and you don't want to explain, or if you somehow think I was being snarky... which I wasn't (maybe re-read my post - a little sensitive are we? ;)). I'm sincere - if I can't do it the way I want, how do you do you schedule your window head heights?


I guess I should have said nothing, sorry.

If I can't change my window family somehow, and there's not some "feature" of the schedule that I'm missing, then it's time to move on to what I should be scheduling. If what I'm suggesting is "odd", what isn't? Are people scheduling the window head height and indicate it's measured from the sub-floor? Or are most people scheduling the rough opening height (and if so, how would you do that?)? Or...?

Thanks for taking a moment to help me out!

[stuntmonkee]

I'm a bit confused too. . . .FF has always indicated the sub floor for us. I know its a bit decieving, but if your FF was a concrete slab in one area and tile in another, you wouldnt want 2 windows (possibly right next to eachother) to have different heights. So when creating my families, I keep the structure and plywood between the core lines.

If you MUST base a window height off of a particular finish, and still need to maintain a whole number, then you may need to recess your floor 3/4 of an inch in some areas. . .and then more or less depending on the finish or lack of.

[Steve_Stafford]

It is just that the situation you describe is consistent with field conditions. I don't see anything wrong with doing exactly what you said would happen. I see no advantage in going to the trouble of creating additional levels or other machinations to get a schedule to read out 80" when a note on the sheet could say it plainly? Many window schedules I see don't even mention the head height. They just call it out on elevations or in notes.

Besides...who wins when you call it 80"? The contractor? He's got to figure out what the finishes are and then do the math to put the window head at the correct elevation and it isn't going to be 80" because there is no floor, only sub-floor. Does the owner? They won't be able to tell the difference between a ceiling at 8' or 8' 3/4" or 8'-6" for that matter. Many people can't discern between "feet" of difference unless there is something to provide a sense of scale within view. This is a similar issue to the idea of dimensioning to the center of stud. It is easy? for whom? Not the contractor. I'm curious to know how many architects measure the head height of windows while the framer is on site? As a group we often over dimension things in an irrelevant way and then ignore things that actually matter to the people trying to build the thing.

This is why I said sorry, all the above...it is just my opinion and I should have stuck to the facts. Which is no, it isn't possible to do what you describe automatically unless you are prepared to, modify your content, create your own set of parameters and/or use alternate levels as workplanes.

[mlgatzke]

I have worked in the residential field for many years. Granted, most of my work has been restricted to Illinois, Iowa, Florida, and California. To me, the answer seems simple. You must first know how you are expecting the window's rough-opening to be framed, then call out a head-height appropriate for that framing method.

For instance, a standard header in my projects is a double (or sometimes a triple) 2x12. Figuring that the header would be placed just under the double-top-plate and if I'm anticipating the use of precut studs, a window would have a head-height of 6'-10 7/8" for the standard plate height of 8'-1 1/8" (and I specify it as such). Then, if I want raised heads in some areas (keeping the longer precut studs), such as 7'-10 7/8" - I specify it as that. A rough opening of 6'-10 7/8 is easy for a framer to acheive and the end result almost exactly aligns with the frame of a 6'-8" door. If you specify a head of 6'-8", your framers are going to have to do one of two things: They're either going to have to cut VERY TINY cripples to fill the space, or they'll just ignore your head-height and frame them the way they've always done it. My guess is that they've been ignoring you this whole time and you haven't even realized it.

Now, I might be wrong on my assumption and if I am, please pardon me. However, remember, in Revit you should model it like you build it.

[dbaldacchino]

In commercial work, we always show levels at Finish Floor and everything goes up from that. We operate under the assumption that the contractor is going to figure out what the elevation of the concrete slab needs to be to accomodate VCT, Lineoleum, Carpet, etc. Does that happen? I would say almost 100% no. Should we really care? Well, probably not, but some seem to care and that's cool. What I really care about is that if I have a masonry veneer outside, that the head works with that coursing. Other than that, an inch is not really going to make an discernable difference. Now if you have say, a wood floor in a gym, you are going to have to show the appropriate slab depression to make sure the finish floor is correct. Other "thin" finishes don't really matter.....that's what transition strips are for ;) Now if for example you have an interior condition and you are trying to have some sort f banding (perhaps a paint stripe) to line up with door and window heads, that's a different question. I would say that probably you should never do that and experience teaches you why you shouldn't. It's hard to not vary by an inch over a building that's over 500 feet long! Of course if such banding is high, then you can have the banding look like a straight line, even though a laser tool would show otherwise (it's called the fudge factor). We work in a perfect digital world. The builders are all analog and we need to give them some degree of slack/tolerance. When I hear a designer arguing that we need to dimension to the face of the finished gyp because he/she wants exactly a 10' space, I chuckle, then reach for a measuring tape and lobby with their supervisors to send them to one of our completed buildings with a set of drawings to see if any dimensions match to the 1/8" tolerance as they expect it to be.

I personally wouldn't get hung up much on it. But that's just me.

[iru69]

Steve, thank you for your thoughts.

I began this topic just looking for the "facts". I agree, that it's generally best to start there before asking the "why?".

I'm not really interested in any machinations... for something like this, it will lead to way more problems than the original problem.

I think the measurement from finish floor is just historically a way of generally indicating that the windows line up with the doors. Door schedule reads 80" tall doors. Window schedule indicates head height at 80". Builder looks at it and knows that windows are, generally speaking, suppose to align with doors. You don't just add a note that all windows are at 80" because not all the windows are necessarily at 80". And I don't want to be manually dimensioning every window. I also add a window schedule note indicating that head trim at windows and doors should align evenly. Now everyone can find a hundred reasons why "that's a bad idea (TM)", because there's a hundred different theories on how to dimension a building. All I can say is that in the last fifteen-plus years, it's been pretty easy, it's kept me out of trouble, and there's never been a reason to rethink it.

Obviously now I do.

Thanks for all the responses.

[iru69]

Mike - all those calculations are exactly what I want to avoid! You're absolutely right (though I do realize it) - they frame it however they want - I really don't care as long as I was clear in indicating what I intended, it ends up looking like what I intended, and if it doesn't, they can't blame me for giving them the wrong measurement. ;)


For instance, a standard header in my projects is a double (or sometimes a triple) 2x12. Figuring that the header would be placed just under the double-top-plate and if I'm anticipating the use of precut studs, a window would have a head-height of 6'-10 7/8" for the standard plate height of 8'-1 1/8" (and I specify it as such). Then, if I want raised heads in some areas (keeping the longer precut studs), such as 7'-10 7/8" - I specify it as that. A rough opening of 6'-10 7/8 is easy for a framer to acheive and the end result almost exactly aligns with the frame of a 6'-8" door. If you specify a head of 6'-8", your framers are going to have to do one of two things: They're either going to have to cut VERY TINY cripples to fill the space, or they'll just ignore your head-height and frame them the way they've always done it. My guess is that they've been ignoring you this whole time and you haven't even realized it.

Dave, yes, commercial work at that scale is a whole other animal. Most of the work I do is custom residential or very small office buildings (~10,000 SF). Personally, it's not really my cup of tea (I find it a bit precious), but we do a lot of work where you have that piece of trim wrap around and line up with a window muntin bar kind of thing. However, I'm still a bit surprised that you show levels at Finish Floor.


In commercial work, we always show levels at Finish Floor and everything goes up from that.

Thanks again for the responses. It's always really interesting to hear how other people are doing stuff.

[mlgatzke]

irusun,

Just keep in mind that a door panel height of 80" is not the same thing as a window head-height of 80". A "head-height" is the measurement to the top of the rough-opening, not the top of the window. There's usually around 3/4" difference between the head and the top of the frame. Then there's the thickness of the frame to deduct as well. So, from head height to top of the window sash is a difference of around 1 1/2" or so (in the residential world).

Just food for thought. But, you're right, in the end all that matters is the building results.

Good luck on this,