Revit Architecure or Structural?

[dzatto]

I searched for an answer, but didn't find anything. It looks like I'm going to Revit, but here's the question. Does architecture also have structural members in it? I do a full set of plans, site to archtiectural to structural to MEP and details. I'm thinking Revit architecture is what I need. Right now, I'm using ACA, and it has column grids and structural member styles already. I don't have to get Revit structural too, do I?

Also, how would I handle doing detailed cornices in Revit? In ACA, I create a structural member shape and style, then miter the edges. How easy is it to create custom stuff like that in Revit?

[Chad Smith]

Sounds like your in the exact same position as our company is. That is, not being able to complete a set of construction documents efficiently within a single Revit program.

By default we are using Revit Architecture.
We originally bought in when it was just Revit. Then it was renamed to Revit Building, and this is when development of those other useful tools were starting to be put into other Revit programs. Then finally it was renamed to Revit Architecture, which sealed the fate of which tools we were or weren't going to get.

As you've already noticed, each of the Revit programs do some things that the other can't. Autodesk have systematically disabled some tools from each program which they think that the user should not need or shouldn't even be using for their chosen discipline. The problem is, that even Autodesk can't stick to their own logic.
For instance, Architecture doesn't have the ability to put in Rebar objects like it can be done in Structure, but your able to put a footing in. Last time I checked, a footing was an engineers field, not an Architects.

To answer your question, each of the Revit programs can do a great deal of a building. Architecture can show structural columns and framing, but not rebar. Structure can do all the structure, but it is missing a few of the Architecture tools, stairs I think is one of them.

Autodesk have removed just enough tools from each program for it to be annoying and more time consuming to users like us. Like I said, you can't finish a complete set of construction documents as efficiently as though you have the complete set of tools from each program.

There are two ways around it;
Purchase all three programs and waste time switching between them on a daily basis.
Manually draw in the services/objects that you don't have the tools for.Firstly I would very carefully review each of them, and make sure you know what you are getting in for. But if you really feel the need to move to Revit then my suggestion would be to go with the Architecture program as I think you will find it has the majority of the tools.

And finally, make sure you express your concerns to Autodesk about the inability to access all tools from each of the programs. It really does stuff us multi-disciplinary users around. Resist the urge to hand over more cash to Autodesk by purchasing all three programs which is what they want you to do.

[jffgrffn]

This exact arguement is one reason why my company is currently evaluating and seriously considering a migration to ArchiCAD.

[dhurtubise]

I've heard that kind of threat so many times in my career, can't wait to hear the Archicad suck in afew months from now.
To answer the post, you can always download the structural library. That will allow you to use all of those.
Asd for the MEP, you will lack the tools to layout the ducts or stuff like that and alos the calculation ability. But that's not the usual architect work.
Depending on the size of the company you can consider purchasing a copy of Revit MEP to suite your work.

[twiceroadsfool]

This exact arguement is one reason why my company is currently evaluating and seriously considering a migration to ArchiCAD.

Take it from someone who used both, dont bother looking in that direction. Not, at least, if your logic is that Revit is hindering your productivity by limiting the amount of tools you have to work with.

Not for nothing, but with the advent of Line Based Families, i feel comfortable saying i COULD develop enough pieces of the puzzle for the scope of Structural and MEP work that most architects do, even in design build.

RAC 2008 and 2009 is PLENTY capable. ArchiCAD? Its capable as well, but if i have to pick between not getting the verticals of Struct. and MEP, or dealing with the extreme unintuitivness of ArchiCAD, im taking Revit every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And before i get called an Adesk nuthugger, know i was using ArchiCAD quite successfully for the better part of a year before making the switch. Im not spekaing from ignorance, just preference.

[Chad Smith]

But that's not the usual architect work.
That's one thing I hate about this situation.
Autodesk have done a great marketing job of transforming Revit into Revit Architecture, and now a lot of people think that Revit Architecture is only for Architects, or that Revit Architecture has only been used by Architects since day one. Wrong!!

Myself and my fellow users in our company are Building Designers. We design and document a building from start to completion. We do more than what the average Architect does.
But we are now left in the dark with using workarounds and long winded detailing due to Autodesk's ignorance.

[twiceroadsfool]

Long winded detailing and custom building your own library of efficient pieces for Structural and MEP design is being left in the dark, and youre a "Building Designer?" Jesus, id rather build an entire library from scratch, than to go back to GDP just to get a window the way i want it in a wall.

THATS left out in the dark.

I hate to say it (really), but i have to agree with Dan on this one. Believe me Chad, i WANT a unified Revit. And i WANT it for free. I also want my New-Craftsman masterpiece, with my laminated garage floor sitting cozily underneath my 1998 F355, but you know what? Some things arent in the cards man, lol... Its in YOUR scope fo work, and some other designers, sure... But so we want all fo the R&D necessary to generate all of that functionality to be free, because the slim minority of people want it? I dont consider it that they broke Revit up to generate revenue, so much as to keep the price from hitting 20k for all the stuff they added.

But, ive been told i have rose colored glasses. Such a beautiful disaster, i am. :)

[dzatto]

I've heard that kind of threat so many times in my career, can't wait to hear the Archicad suck in afew months from now.
To answer the post, you can always download the structural library. That will allow you to use all of those.
Asd for the MEP, you will lack the tools to layout the ducts or stuff like that and alos the calculation ability. But that's not the usual architect work.
Depending on the size of the company you can consider purchasing a copy of Revit MEP to suite your work.

So there is a structural library I can download? That's all I need, well, that and the ability to create my own structural members if need be (not just line work), oh, and a '58 Corvette!!!

As far as MEP goes, lines are all I need for that. That's how ACA does it anyway. No use buying MEP, my buildings are on the small side.

So, where do I download this library so I can check it out before I buy Revit (I have the 30 day trial).

[david_peterson]

RS has some tools that RA dosen't. RA has some tools that RS dosen't. I'm not sure yet, but the last I heard RMEP dosen't do piping yet, you even if you get all 3 you're still kind of screwed. Now if you get AMEP, you get all the Arch tools, all the Struct tools and a functional MEP tools. But it's not Revit.

[cphubb]

Could someone point me to "ArchiStructure?" How 'bout "ArchiMEP?"

I am the first to complain about the limited structural functionality of RAC. However the entire structural library ships with RAC so we have access to all of the pieces they do. We cannoy created floors with profiles or join and cut beams. I think it we were to get those functions we would have no issues. Plus there is a workaround for the profile floor so that is a non-issue for me. But if you are really concerned about this, instead of buying 2 RAC, buy 1 RAC and 1 RS or 1 RMEP.

[david_peterson]

We cannoy created floors with profiles or join and cut beams. I think it we were to get those functions we would have no issues. .

There's a cope tool in RS, but it dosen't cut the hidden lines in HSS ships.
You have to use the linework tool.
If they could get half of the tools to work correctly, I don't I have as much of an issue as I do now.

[cphubb]

There's a cope tool in RS, but it dosen't cut the hidden lines in HSS ships.
You have to use the linework tool.
If they could get half of the tools to work correctly, I don't I have as much of an issue as I do now.

Of course it does

[david_peterson]

I'm guessing that you had to add the reference plane? Why can't I miter them. Or did that acutally fix that one. I haven't played with 08 much. I'm played with rs5 lots and that was the only way to get it to work. You had to use a reference plane and cut the geometery. I guess that gives me hope that they actually fixed something.

[cphubb]

The Reference plane as cut object has been around since 3 or 4. There isn't a RS 5 ASFAIK. There is now a miter tool in RAC 2009.

[dzatto]

My IT guy just told me he got mad at our reseller and told them to forget the upgrade to Revit!!! DamnIT guy!

Anyway, I may talk him back into it, but I need a couple of questions answered. Keep in mind I've been on the Revit trial for only about 2 days...........

1. I see where there is a structural member catalog. I inserted a few W8X35 columns, and a few W16X26 beams. The beams create a gable roof. Is there any way to trim the beams at the columns, and mitre them with each other at the peak?

2. In ACA, I can create blocks with property sets so I can create schedules. Basically, I use this for all my lights. Is there a way to do this in RAC?

I know there is a structural and an MEP Revit, but there's no way to talk the boss into 3 new programs. If I can't do it all in RAC, then I'm stuck with ACA. My buildings are all under 5,000 s.f. commercial (car washes, lube centers, and dry cleaners) so it's not super complicated stuff. Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated.

[twiceroadsfool]

My IT guy just told me he got mad at our reseller and told them to forget the upgrade to Revit!!! DamnIT guy!

Anyway, I may talk him back into it, but I need a couple of questions answered. Keep in mind I've been on the Revit trial for only about 2 days...........

1. I see where there is a structural member catalog. I inserted a few W8X35 columns, and a few W16X26 beams. The beams create a gable roof. Is there any way to trim the beams at the columns, and mitre them with each other at the peak?

2. In ACA, I can create blocks with property sets so I can create schedules. Basically, I use this for all my lights. Is there a way to do this in RAC?

I know there is a structural and an MEP Revit, but there's no way to talk the boss into 3 new programs. If I can't do it all in RAC, then I'm stuck with ACA. My buildings are all under 5,000 s.f. commercial (car washes, lube centers, and dry cleaners) so it's not super complicated stuff. Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated.

They will trim, but they dont clean up/mitre very well in Revit Architecture. Thats just part of using the program, sadly.

For your second item, what exactly are you scheduling? Im certain you can do it in RAC, but its more important for us to know WHAT youre trying to schedule, versus how you do it in ACA. Yes, you can schedule lights, and just about any information you feel like embedding in your lighting families/schedules...

[dzatto]

They will trim, but they dont clean up/mitre very well in Revit Architecture. Thats just part of using the program, sadly.

For your second item, what exactly are you scheduling? Im certain you can do it in RAC, but its more important for us to know WHAT youre trying to schedule, versus how you do it in ACA. Yes, you can schedule lights, and just about any information you feel like embedding in your lighting families/schedules...
I'm just trying to schedule basic properties, such as quantity, type, manufacturer, description. As long as I can create a family and assign information to it for the schedule to pick up, I'm good.

[twiceroadsfool]

I'm just trying to schedule basic properties, such as quantity, type, manufacturer, description. As long as I can create a family and assign information to it for the schedule to pick up, I'm good.

Type, manu and desc. are all fields already in the template, too. All you have to do is type in the information by type, and drop lights around...