Anyone not like the Project Navigator ?

[sgroff]

I posted this on the autodesk forums also, but havent had any responses so i figured i'd raise some rucus in here :)

I am in need of some insight on the project navigator. The internet is flooded with praises about the project navigator but i'm wondering if there is anyone out there who has experimented with the PN but decided against it. I am evaluating it's use within our company and i find it hard to belive that no one out there is complaining about some of the issues were coming across.

In my experience it's hard to train on and not real intuitive. i dont like the idea of not being able to use Xrefs the conventional way(most users are still forgeting also). I dont like the funky PSD names that are created when a user copies items from one project to another. There seems to be crazy drawing delay once all the fields and hyperlinks are populated and the drawing set gets larger. alot of users are still copying projects and ending up with xrefs pointing to last projects location still. I also dont like the idea that newly created tool palettes will be associated with the current project.

I also think there are work flow issues with the PN. For example, right now the office is creating an overall floor plan then erasing areas to create divisions. After the constructs are made, they get pieced back together to create another overall plan. I thought the whole idea was to avoid doing things twince. :( and then theres the dwg file that gets created for each, construct, element, view , and sheet. CMON! No wonder things are so slow sometimes!

I am tempted to go back to handling our documents manually because i am really starting to think that its the only way to regain the speed and versatility that we once had. I also think it would be easier for new hires as they would be able to get up to speed much quicker. Another issue is that it's hard to enforce/ trouble shoot/ teach to branch offices. However, as a good CAD Manager would, I am willing to adjust my perception, or suggest alternative ways to use the PN if my issues are somewhat addressed. Right now, it looks like i'm the only one complaining.

I could be way off base here. The whole point of this post is encourage conversation on the PN. I want to hear somebody else's complaints and how they delt with them. I have to admit there are some strong advantages to using the PN. All of which are documented out there some where, but is the juice really worth the squeeze?

If you've actually read all this...Thanks.

[Steve_Bennett]

Please note I have moved this from the CAD Management General forum to the Project Navigator forum.

[dzatto]

Well, my projects are small, but have multiple levels. I like PN for that. I know there are tons of little drawings that make up the project, and that doesn't bother me. The real big bother I have is keeping revisions. Back in the day, I would just name the drawing floor 1, then the next revision would be floor 2 and so on. That way, when the owner gets the bright idea to go back to the original design, it's already done. I haven't figured out a way to do that in PN yet, not 100% anyway.

Once I got used to Xrefing everything, it got pretty easy. There are still some issues with it like wanting to print just on sheet from an unopened project. I could open it and print it, but all the fields are linked to the project data, and that reads whatever project is current. So, to print just one sheet, you need to close the current project, open the other one, print one sheet, close the project.........etc etc. That's a big pain.

As for copying a project. I used one as a template to start another and all the links updated. I don't think a project was meant to just be copied. I could be wrong though.

All in all, PN seems like the best way to do a full 3D set of plans. I can cut my sections and elevations. That's nice. The only thing better would be Revit!! Although, that isn't happening until next year when it's time to renew the subscription.

[dkoch]

I also think there are work flow issues with the PN. For example, right now the office is creating an overall floor plan then erasing areas to create divisions. After the constructs are made, they get pieced back together to create another overall plan. I thought the whole idea was to avoid doing things twince. :(
We do not use Project Navigator as there is an office policy of not opening drawing files directly off of the network. However, I have some general familiarity with PN and the expected workflow, and I can tell you that I have never heard of creating an entire floor plan in one file, then erasing bits to create Divisions. You can not blame PN on that one; perhaps the initial thought was that the entire plan could be in one file, then to allow multiple users to work on the same floor at once it was decided after the fact to split the plan into separate Divisions?

[sgroff]

I can tell you that I have never heard of creating an entire floor plan in one file, then erasing bits to create Divisions. You can not blame PN on that one; perhaps the initial thought was that the entire plan could be in one file, then to allow multiple users to work on the same floor at once it was decided after the fact to split the plan into separate Divisions?

True. And thats going to change. I dont see a reason for it, when only one team member is responsible for the plan layout. I am going to make use of the PN. But i've decided we are going to figure out more efficient ways of using it.

may i ask, why you dont open files from the network?

[dkoch]

Apparently the IT people get their knickers in a twist whenever doing so is mentioned. They go on about file corruption and messing up the only copy of the file. We have a little utility program that "withdraws" files you want to edit, making a copy on your local machine and making the network copy hidden and read only. The same utility program allows you to deposit the file back to the network when you are done. Not that the utility program would prevent you from copying a file that got corrupted locally back to the network, so unless saving over the network is more likely to result in corruption of files (I am not a network guy, so I would not know), I think their big concern is that the increase in traffic might make the network unstable or at least unacceptably slow.

Perhaps they are just being ultraconservative, and doing things the way we always have, even if the network and servers are ever so much better than when the original policy was put in place. Then again, if the network goes down, they won't be coming after me, so who am I to argue with someone else's peace of mind?

[dzatto]

Oh yeah, one thing I HATE about PN, and you touched on this, is that a new tool palette loads with each project. I see the reasoning behind it, but who only uses a specific tool for a specific project? Not me!

As far as the network thing, doesn't CAD automatically save the file you open to a local temp file while you are editing the drawing? I believe it does, which mean you aren't actually working over the network. You're working locally, then saving back to the network. Sort of what your routine does. I'm pretty sure CAD does it automatically.

[david_peterson]

True. And thats going to change. I dont see a reason for it, when only one team member is responsible for the plan layout. I am going to make use of the PN. But i've decided we are going to figure out more efficient ways of using it.

may i ask, why you dont open files from the network?
What we've done in our case was to create one overall floor plan. One person is incharge of walls, doors and windows. that plan get referenced into the case work plan, the RCP, and just about anything else that needs it. We just use match lines. If we need to split a building because of either time constraints or size of the project we gennerally split it at expansion joints. We are working on project that currently has about 200ksf per floor. We have that split in to 2 files along one of the expansion joints. It seems to be working out just fine.

[dkoch]

[quote=dzatto;823709]Oh yeah, one thing I HATE about PN, and you touched on this, is that a new tool palette loads with each project. I see the reasoning behind it, but who only uses a specific tool for a specific project? Not me![quote]
Then you will love 2009 - project tool palettes are optional in 2009. The Project Properties for the project toolpalette has a new option: None.

That said, I almost always have project-specific tools and tool palettes. But I would agree that forcing the use of a project tool palette "workspace" and always making that one the active workspace is not ideal. Since I am not working with Project Navigator at work, it is not an issue for me, but I think I would rather work the way I do now - where I create the tools I need and set up a separate tool palette group for each project (or group of projects for a single client, when that makes sense). If I need to share the tools with others, then I make a project tool catalog, put the palettes/tools in there, and let the others i-drop them into their workspaces, organizing them however they see fit.

For what it is worth, in each of those project-specific tool palette groups, I will also include my own personal tool palettes and one or more of the more often used office standard palettes, to minimize the number of times I need to switch tool palette groups. I am really looking forward to the office moving up to 2008, so I can take advantage of the power of Workspaces.

[Ed Jobe]

I think their big concern is that the increase in traffic might make the network unstable or at least unacceptably slow.

And the utility doesn't create traffic? I see no sense in this policy. If they are worried about corruption, it tells me that they dont' have any backups.:eek:

[finney13]

I have been trying to determine if I want to use the PN myself. It really seems like a lot of extra work for the same result. I have been using MEP/Building Systems since 2006, and I have found it much easier to set up projects with the Sheet Set Manager rather than the PN.

I have a hard enough time getting people to use the SSM. I cannot imagine teying to make them create all the different views and everything themselves. I would get a bit fat "#*@^ you, it is faster the old way!" and that would be it.

That being said, I seem to be able to really do everything MEP has to offer by using individual sheets and the SSM. What is the real advantage of the PN?

[paul_mep]

I've found the Project Navigator to be a *tremendous* help for the design/drafting process. It's so nice to just drop in whatever construct/element you need for coordination purposes. Much easier than the old way. If you take the time to plan out and set up your project correctly, you end up saving way more time in the end.

However, I do have a question to those more experienced with PN. Let's say I set up a construct using, say, a few architectural backgrounds and grids. I then set up xclip regions for these. Everything looks pretty. Then, I want to create a view with exactly the same regions, layer settings, and so on. Why should I have to re-create this? Of course I tried switching the dropped-in constructs/views to 'attach', so they would pass through to the view. AutoCAD MEP warns, "Don't do that!" So, I comply, but am left wondering if there is a way to "Create View from Construct". That would be a nice feature. Surely, someone has thought of this. Once the view is all set up, then maybe I'll deviate in the construct, either by dropping in add'l constructs/views, or by changing layer settings, but initially, it is quite common for the construct to be set up the same as the view.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Paul

[dzatto]

Well, I'm not sure about the regions, but the layer settings can match the construct. In the project tab, edit propeties box, there is a setting called "match sheet views to view". Make sure that says yes. This way, the layer settings are not reset when you insert your construct into a view. If you change it now, I don't think existing views will be updated. But from now on they should match.

[sgroff]

I have been trying to determine if I want to use the PN myself. It really seems like a lot of extra work for the same result. I have been using MEP/Building Systems since 2006, and I have found it much easier to set up projects with the Sheet Set Manager rather than the PN.

I have a hard enough time getting people to use the SSM. I cannot imagine teying to make them create all the different views and everything themselves. I would get a bit fat "#*@^ you, it is faster the old way!" and that would be it.

That being said, I seem to be able to really do everything MEP has to offer by using individual sheets and the SSM. What is the real advantage of the PN?

I'm starting to think there is no advantage except for the fact that PSD's can be assigned to a construct object from the view drawing.
I have started implementing the Project navigator because the firm I work for went and spent 60,000 on training because the reseller suggested it. Now i dont want to be the bearer of bad news and tell them that i think they wasted thier money, so now I have triple the templates to maintain,( actually three templates for each Project template)
I'm really irritated that I cant use my window option in standard page setups any more, or they wont work as alternate pages setups.
I also think i have to create two project templates so that each office can have the proper pagesetup overrides. Either that or list all 50 pagesetups for everyone to pick through.

[dzatto]

The other big thing I like is all of my callouts are linked to my sheets. So if I need to insert a sheet at the beginning, I can renumber the other 20 details sheets and all the callouts in all the view files update automatically. That is a huge time saver.

Also, like Paul said, it's really nice to be able to drag and drop another contsruct into my current construct for design work. Multi stories are also way easier to handle with PN, rather than just having each floor be its own drawing. Not to mention the section and elevations tools. The old way, I'd have to create a file just to do sections and elevations. Then when someone added 21 windows, I'd have to do it in 2 files, rather than just update the construct and have my composite model view file update automatically.

There are still some issues with it, but overall it's a huge help once you get used to using it.

[sgroff]

The other big thing I like is all of my callouts are linked to my sheets. So if I need to insert a sheet at the beginning, I can renumber the other 20 details sheets and all the callouts in all the view files update automatically. That is a huge time saver.

Also, like Paul said, it's really nice to be able to drag and drop another contsruct into my current construct for design work. Multi stories are also way easier to handle with PN, rather than just having each floor be its own drawing. Not to mention the section and elevations tools. The old way, I'd have to create a file just to do sections and elevations. Then when someone added 21 windows, I'd have to do it in 2 files, rather than just update the construct and have my composite model view file update automatically.

There are still some issues with it, but overall it's a huge help once you get used to using it.

i guess i'm talking to the walls. I know it has benefits, but these benefits are for the users only, and frankly i see the PN as a glorified hand holding, file manager. It seems like the CAD MANAGER is the one who has to make up for all that "time saved" through more maintanance. i will admit that maybe i just think its alot of maintenance because i'm trying to get two offices in sync.
i cant believe i'm going to say this, but i think revit would be easier to maintain.

[dzatto]

i guess i'm talking to the walls. I know it has benefits, but these benefits are for the users only, and frankly i see the PN as a glorified hand holding, file manager. It seems like the CAD MANAGER is the one who has to make up for all that "time saved" through more maintanance. i will admit that maybe i just think its alot of maintenance because i'm trying to get two offices in sync.
i cant believe i'm going to say this, but i think revit would be easier to maintain.
:shock:

Well, I'm the designer, draftsman, cad manager, coordinator, etc. etc. etc. The only one I have to set up is me!!!!

I feel for ya having to set up 2 offices.

[finney13]

I hear you. I am trying to get people to quit using ACAD LT and use the Full version or MEP if they have it installed.

[tiffany]

I am fighting to keep using the project navigator in my office. The biggest problem we have is in making changes in the views and it not updating in the sheets. Everyone else wants to return to using layout tabs.

If we change layer colors or linetypes in the view we either have to make the changes again in the sheet ,or erase the view, recreate it and place it again. I know in 2008 you can link the view drawing to the sheet, but I feel like that defeats the purpose of the sheet. I thought the point of the sheet was to have it always ready to plot correctly regardless of what layers are on or off in the view. We tried using this setting, but it caused problems because lately we have been creating a separate note plan and dimension plan in our sheets, but we have been using the one view for the floor plan because we didn't want to duplicate Room Names, etc. in two different drawings.

It seems like every time we plot at a major milestone we have to delete all the views from the sheets and recreate them in the view drawing and bring them in again for everything to show up properly.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I feel like we are missing something in how we are doing things.

[dzatto]

Welcome to AUGI Tiffany, congrats on your first post. :beer:

Do you have the "match sheet view layers to view" set to yes? You can find it in the project properties dialogue box.