2009 General Crashiness and Stability

[BillyGrey]

I'm having major problems with the 2 files I'm working on which are both crashing consistently in the public 2009 release.

One is a phased remodel ( upgraded from 2008 ), and the other is a SD phase model that is currently only walls, windows, doors and linework. The second is also an upgrade from 2008. This is very frustrating, and already, I have wasted many hours of work, and am sorry I upgraded both files at this point.

The reason I am posting is so everyone is aware of potential issues they may be facing, and also, there seems to be allot of other threads about crashing issues already.

I am running Vista 64 on a very new machine with excellent specs. I have no problems w/ any other program on my machine today, including r2008.

Could this be a premature release, or even Adesk's version release of Win ME ?
Perhaps it is a hardware setting in my box that conflicts with the new release?
Whatever the problem is, I hope it gets fixed soon, because as far as I am concerned, I cannot use 2009 in any critical capacity until I get to the bottom (2 files excepted, arrrgh), or Adesk releases a fix.

It is that pervasive and untenable for me at this point.

Fingers crossed,

Bill

[truevis]

Could you try them on XP or XP64?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Sorry to hear you're having issues Bill. I can't say I've ever had the type of problems that you seem to be experiencing, whenever i've gone through upgrading.
I hope you saved a copy of the previous version and can possibly just revert back to it until you can iron out the problem.
Good luck.

[BillyGrey]

Thank You Dimitri, your thoughts are appreciated for certain : )
This is the first time I've had upgrade issues, and I've been subscribed for 5 years.

(edit) BTW, I think at this point I will take a step backward and get at least one of the files back into 2008...the other is way to far along.

Truevis, I can't, it would mean reforrmatting everything, and rebuilding my whole OS/software structure. At a min., I don't have all that many extranious proggies on the box, and all are alleged to have be compatable w/Vista 64 Biz. I just can't justify not being able to use full ram capacities, in the newest dominant OS.

Thanks,

Bill

[BillyGrey]

On my computer, I deploy a raid 1 data file storage array for .rvts, etc., and a high perf. system file drive for windows and revit (10k raptor).

After my initial post here, I decided to check my raid array for consistency, it's o.k. I ran windows memtest util at the boot level, o.k. All sys. temps are lower than average due to Zalman fans I employ, verified at the board level. All bios level functions checked o.k.
I defrag my sys. drive scheduled weekly. I checked my video settings, all fine. I have a windows perf. rating that exceeds Microsoft's own maximum rating.

Next, in my system's bios, I ensured all power management settings were off, to be certain that Revit was not trying to access a sleeping drive which might be causing it to crash, and double checked Vista's internal power management settings for the same (all set to be on always), I rebooted, and restarted Revit, opened the least complicated file (the SD phase house), drew a wall, selected it, and the program crashed...

All I can add is "Up-grader Beware".

/rant mode<on/

This situation has cost me the better part of 2 working days, not including what anguish I may or may have not experienced during the "unmentionable" testing phase of the "unmentionable". It's to bad that I can't publicly state that this issue may or may not have been raised numerous times during the "unmentionable-unmentionable", so I will not say, one way or another.

All I can say is that I am very anxious and disillusioned today that this product was released in this state.

Well, at least the great new orbit gizmo works, I think. WoW

[sccbrown]

I would say go back to 2008 if all you've lost is 2 working days that were full of crashes. You can usually redo work in less than 1/2 the time it took to do the first time. I ran the beta for the full time and it didn't crash once. I haven't had time to run the public release yet. So my guess is its a vista thing. I'm frustrated the Microsoft has made vista such a resource hog. Its just too darn big to be good in a production environment. I wish someone would figure out how to create an OS that is totally stripped down and just lets you work.

[iru69]

It's not just a Vista "thing". This is a widespread problem on XP as well. Please don't take this personally, but most users who bash Vista with such generalities really don't know much about Vista.

So my guess is its a vista thing. I'm frustrated the Microsoft has made vista such a resource hog. Its just too darn big to be good in a production environment.

[aretap]

We are facing the exact same thing Bill. We however are all XP and XP64 and are losing many hours due to instability issues. We can't use the template modifier from the settings menu or it will crash. We can't use select all and make changes because 5 out of 10 times it will crash. Graphics in all views are MUCH slower. It is really a nightmare. I also have used Revit since 4.0 and never have had an issue upgrading. Usually we see and improvement but 2009 seems to be very unstable. I know this sounds weird but has anyone heard of an SP1 release date yet. This is really taxing the team with down times due to reboots and lose of data since last stc.

We can't even get it to install on the Vista machines keep getting a .dll error on install!!!!

[armbarsalot]

welcome to autocad 13

[BillyGrey]

I am truly sorry to read your account, and was kind-of hoping my incident was isolated, but it appears no...

This really is surrealistic in the sense that a product this "high ticket" would get out the door in this state.

I know Adesk is reading these posts, and I couldn't agree more; could we please get some info on a service pack, or patch? Not the usual, "lets see what your problem is, Mr. User..."

Truly, I think one of the biggest confidence killers is when we are asked to forward our files and journals. Particularly in light of the fact that it really is Adesk's responsibility to ensure to us the product is stable upon release. Not a minute sooner.


We are facing the exact same thing Bill. We however are all XP and XP64 and are losing many hours due to instability issues. We can't use the template modifier from the settings menu or it will crash. We can't use select all and make changes because 5 out of 10 times it will crash. Graphics in all views are MUCH slower. It is really a nightmare. I also have used Revit since 4.0 and never have had an issue upgrading. Usually we see and improvement but 2009 seems to be very unstable. I know this sounds weird but has anyone heard of an SP1 release date yet. This is really taxing the team with down times due to reboots and lose of data since last stc.

We can't even get it to install on the Vista machines keep getting a .dll error on install!!!!

[Wes Macaulay]

Everyone try and get your video drivers updated so we can rule that out...

[patricks]

Weird, I have had no stability problems at all this week, working in a couple of different projects and several different families.

I updated to the latest Quadro FX driver yesterday, not really out of necessity, but just because I didn't have the latest.

[BillyGrey]

Thanks Wes,

I am using an Nvidia 8600GT, and the drivers are version 169.25, which are the most recent
Forceware drivers available at the Nvidia website. I also ran Windows Vista internal driver upgrade utility, and it informed me my drivers are the latest and did not upgrade.


Everyone try and get your video drivers updated so we can rule that out...

[PaperStreet SoapCO]

Since were talking about video drivers, I don't think upgrading them is as always as simple as one would think. I had the most current video drivers for my nvidia go geforce 7700 (i think thats the number) and everytime I opened sketchup my computer halted. I got a modified video card driver from a website called laptopvideo2go.com and now everything works swimmingly.

The reason being, the comp manufacturer was responsible for updating the card and not nvidia for some reason. Long story short, other individuals have been modifying nvidia's drivers to work for more cards and to work better.

Maybe this is just an issue with laptop cards - I don't know - but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway.

I wouldn't recommend trying something like this to someone who doesn't know what they are doing as you could probably screw something up. Always make a backup!

[MRV]

I upgraded my Nvidia Quadro FX1500 drivers from 169.39 (Feb 08)to the latest, 169.47, and almost immediately started having problems: "an error has occurred and this windows shall be closed" and from then on the floors were black!! and nothing showed thru but the reference planes. Rolled back the driver and all is well...

[dbaldacchino]

I'm sorry to say that I totally disagree with Autodesk's policy to tell everyone to upgrade to the laterst video driver. That is NOT always a solution.

I had to actually hunt for an OLDER version of my video driver a couple of years ago because I couldn't get Revit to stabilize unless I disabled OpenGL. I finally found one on my own laptop disk and it work great. A year and a half later, I saw another laptop in our office with a newer driver and thought it would crash (this was more recent than the one I had tried as it hadn't been released yet). Luckily, the system was stable so I tried that newer driver and it worked perfectly. So as you can see, that is not always a solution. The solution is actually to try a few different drivers: either older versions or newer ones. I think the problems users are reporting are really video driver related problmens, and in most cases, it's out of Autodesk's hands. It would be nice to see if the users with crashing and performance issues are laptop or desktop users.

EDIT: There you go Michael, you proved my point :)

[Wes Macaulay]

The reason being, the comp manufacturer was responsible for updating the card and not nvidia for some reason. Long story short, other individuals have been modifying nvidia's drivers to work for more cards and to work better.

Maybe this is just an issue with laptop cards - I don't know - but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway.

I wouldn't recommend trying something like this to someone who doesn't know what they are doing as you could probably screw something up. Always make a backup!
This is always an issue with laptop cards -- OEMs don't update their drivers. It's a real drag.

[BillyGrey]

Progress Update:

In one of my offending files, I have found, for the time being, the "solution".

I simply turned off Open GL Hardware Acceleration, and I have not had a crash for approx. 4 hours. Yipee?

No wonder Adesk is remaining dis-functionally mute on this subject.
As usual, never admit to having a design flaw tightly integrated into the program code, just do not acknowledge it, and it will eventually go away. Man I'm getting tired of this.

My card is only +- 6 mo. old since it was released, is very mainstream, available at just about every electronics outlet in the country, and yet Adesk/Nvidia can't seem to make it work with Open GL.

It begins to look like once again I may be forced to work for another year without the benefits of decent hardware acceleration. Last release, I had a very mainstream ATI card, same deal. This has been going on with me for 5 out of the 6 release cycles I have been involved in. Although prior to this release, the OGL issue was just strange display artifacts and such, def. not program terminations, and crashes.

Factory/Adesk, please consider releasing a list of compatible cards, I'm sure you-all know many of which current gen mainstream cards work, and which don't. It would save us all allot of heartache, and the money I have lost wasting through this quandary, I could have purchased a recommended card with it instead.

Thanks for putting up with my rants everyone, and Adesk, please let users know that all they have to do to "fix" this plague of an issue is cripple a feature that cripples the productivity of the program.

[dbaldacchino]

Billy, this is sounding very much like my experience with 9.1 all over again. Autodesk will not do anything about this. They'll blame it on the video card drivers, and to a certain extent, I think they have a valid point. I've gone through this experience and the only thing that fixed the issue was disabling OpenGL, which I didn't want to do. Then I rolled BACK to an old video driver (primitive, really) and I could once again enable OpenGL without a hitch. A few new driver updates later I finally came across a new version that worked ,so I updated once again and have been happy ever since even in 2008 with openGL. I have not had issues with crashing in 2009 Beta either.

[iru69]

The problem with this is that compatibility changes from release to release. I have a vaunted ATI FGL 3x00 series card and it's a disaster with Revit 2009... unbelievably slow pans and zooms even when there are no shadows. Shadows bring it to a crawl. We've had crashing problems with Quadros and GeForces in the past.

People mis-conclude that because driver updates occasionally fix Revit compatibility issues, it must be the drivers fault. While I certainly wouldn't exclude the possibility that occasionally issues could be traced back to drivers, it's ignoring the fact that all the other competent modeling/CAD apps seem to work fine with all the video cards out there. We use SketchUp, ArchiCAD, Rhino, Chief Architect, AutoCAD, etc., and have never had a problem. Revit is the only one of them we use that consistently has problems with the majority of video cards on the market - FGL, Quadro, GF, Radeon, doesn't matter.


Factory/Adesk, please consider releasing a list of compatible cards, I'm sure you-all know many of which current gen mainstream cards work, and which don't. It would save us all allot of heartache, and the money I have lost wasting through this quandary, I could have purchased a recommended card with it instead.

[Wes Macaulay]

The problem with this is that compatibility changes from release to release. I have a vaunted ATI FGL 3x00 series card and it's a disaster with Revit 2009... unbelievably slow pans and zooms even when there are no shadows. Shadows bring it to a crawl. We've had crashing problems with Quadros and GeForces in the past.
You're on Vista, right? Here in my office we've pretty much quashed any view crashing (under 2008 and XP) with everything but the GeForce cards... but I know how much trouble everyone else is having, so it somehow needs to be addressed. I'm the only one working on 2009 so far, so we'll see how it goes.

[iru69]

There are two of us currently using 2009, with others to follow in the next few days (we really needed that new rendering tool, so unfortunately I jumped the gun and now we're probably too far in to turn back... this is the first time I've been burned by a Revit upgrade).

We run Vista and XP. I have a ATI FGL V3400 (Dell) w/ the latest ATI 8.44 reference driver on XP 32. I haven't tried any other drivers yet. In Revit 2009, panning, zooming and orbiting are painfully slow with OpenGL turned on, even with shadows turned off.

However, we make extensive use of shadows in our drawings, so with OpenGL turned off, it's painfully slow (even way more so than with 2008 ).

The other workstation has a Quadro FX550 card (Dell) with the latest reference drivers also on XP 32, and it hasn't had the panning/zooming/orbiting issues to the same degree - though it is noticeably slower than on 2008. However, there were a couple crashes yesterday when switching views.

Another workstation has Vista 32 with a GF8600GT, and ironically, it's actually been performing the best so far with 2009, but I haven't had a chance to test it out in actual production work, so we'll see.

I don't think it's worth revisiting all the problems we've had with various cards over the years in previous versions (though there's never really been show stoppers). Whether there were fixes out there or not, there's no denying it's been a huge mess.

You're on Vista, right? Here in my office we've pretty much quashed any view crashing (under 2008 and XP) with everything but the GeForce cards... but I know how much trouble everyone else is having, so it somehow needs to be addressed. I'm the only one working on 2009 so far, so we'll see how it goes.

[Scott D Davis]

Has ANYONE filed a Support Request? Bill, why are you reluctant to send in files and journals? This is how errors that were not discovered in Beta get fixed. I was on the beta forums from day one and don't remember anyone having crashing problems to the extent that 2 users here are.

Always, always, always make a backup of your 2008 files before upgrading to 2009. If you have issues, FILE SUPPORT REQUESTS. Then work in 2008 until your issues get fixed. It seems that this crashing is very isolated at this point. We've got 2 users out of 1000's here asking about it.

[MRV]

A note about my Quadro installation failing with the latested drivers... I re-downloaded the driver, re-installed, and now everything works perfectly. I sure was quick to blame Revit though... (also note that I did file support requests, and they were very helpful).

While at Nvidia.com, I looked on the user forums... LOTS of people with 8600GT cards are having problems with multiple programs! This may be more of a driver/video card issue than a Revit issue, for what's it worth with those having problems. Also remember that the 8600GT is a gaming card, not a workstation card optimized for Opengl.

For the ATI/Firegl camp... their drivers haven't been upgraded since last year. Is this a good sign? Or were the programmers the ones laid off from AMD???

[sbrown]

I don't know alot about vista that is true. I only know that new OS and new software often have issues. So to blame revit completely is not productive. Especially since I was on the beta and didn't experience any performance issues like you present. I'm not saying either that there isn't a problem in revit that they can fix. but without your files and journals, they can't fix it because they obviously didn't see it. Now there were some graphics issues. but not crashing. Very diff. problems.

My comment about Vista was more a complaint at microsoft, sim. to some of the complaints we level at ADSK. That we wish we could just get performance based software vs more bells and whistles that bogg things down or cause more crashes, etc.

[ckc.mike]

I am not sure will this fix the crashing issue, but I think that worth for a try.
Before you open the file you select 'Audit', if the file is workshared select 'Detach from central' too. Then 'save as' with a new name.
If the file has other Revit links, you can rename all the old version before you do the process above. Then after you open the file with 'Audit', you can save the file with the file with the original file name, that might help you to save some time to relink all the Revit links.
If there has any 'local file', I suggest kill them and rebuild a new one from the new central file.
The above process was from my experience, not an official recommandation. But this process fixed 100% of the problem caused by the file upgrade to new release in version 2008 release.
Then good luck!! I hope that can fix the problem.

[armbarsalot]

The system requirements are quickly turning 2009 into a 'specialist' software vs general office architectural software. The logistics of getting a 100+ revit license firm on to 09 are not conducive to optimized productivity of support & production staff, by the time training, computer upgrades are completed we will be starting to talk about 2010.

Most managers get tired of hearing that everybody needs a new computer year after year. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for an aggressive technology stance, but when budgets are getting tighter & the quality & speed of work are suffering because of all the re-training, it makes outsourcing more & more attractive.

[patricks]

My machine is nearly 1.5 years old and it seems to be running 2009 just fine.

My boss is still on 2008, but his machine is probably 4 years old and is running it just fine.

[ckc.mike]

The system requirements are quickly turning 2009 into a 'specialist' software vs general office architectural software. The logistics of getting a 100+ revit license firm on to 09 are not conducive to optimized productivity of support & production staff, by the time training, computer upgrades are completed we will be starting to talk about 2010.

Most managers get tired of hearing that everybody needs a new computer year after year. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for an aggressive technology stance, but when budgets are getting tighter & the quality & speed of work are suffering because of all the re-training, it makes outsourcing more & more attractive.

I have no idea why you post your complain here, seem to me your problem is a management problem, not a technical issue.
Outsourcing re-training is a consideration, but from my experience not much I can expect from the staff came back from outsourced re-trainning programe. More likely they are having more confusions than before. The main issue is every office have thier own procedures and work arounds to archive certain tasks.
The main good reason for outsourcing re-training programe is buying some time for the manager to plan what to do and what can be done for the new release.

[patricks]

Just had my first fatal error message from 2009. It did allow me to save a recovery file.

For some reason, the rendering dialog got stuck open even while I was doing things in plan view. I tried to replicate it again, and when you switch to a non-3D view, the rendering dialog goes away. But for some reason it was still there while in plan view just awhile ago, and when I clicked to close the render dialog, it reported a fatal error with the option to save.

Sounds to me like a pretty isolated glitch, though, and not something that might happen all the time.

[BillyGrey]

Scott, what leads you to think I have or have not not already sent journals and dmp files? What makes you perceive I did or did not already post numerous times on the beta boards regarding this issue prior to the general release? Your question to me, and your statements, at least in my case, begin to paint a picture which has nothing to do with the reality of what I have been through regarding this issue.

If you wish, please feel free to contact me via pm or off board and I will be glad to explain the answer to your question to you.

Thank You, and looking forward,

Bill Cooper

[BillyGrey]

Not to add insult to injury, and I actually found this rather humorous in my twisted sense, but IE7 64 bit is not even recognized by Revit's "Create Service Report" command in the help menu. See image below.

EDIT: Perhaps this is because I have not been able to activate my product yet?
For some reason Revit is not recognizing that my ISP is connected and working.
I read somewhere that this will be o.k. when we receive our disks, so I am just running w/o authorization for now.

[patricks]

I tried to log a support request this past Friday, and for some reason when Revit opened Explorer and went to the subscription center page, it said that I was not on subscription. I entered my boss's subscription user ID and password and it still wouldn't take it. Yet when I went to the same page in Firefox, it did recognize it just fine.

This morning, however, support request worked fine in Explorer. :roll:

[aretap]

Well I just put in a request. Turned in the central file, the entire folder of journals. After a morning of emails with them trying to recreate the crashes they were finally able too.

Then GET THIS - THE ISSUES ARE KNOW AND THEY ARE WORKING ON A SOLUTION. I love it. I am going to try that with a client.

Client: Yeah the grand entrance to my building you promised is missing.

Architect: Yeah that is a known issue we are working on it

Client: So when will I be able to use it

Architect: We don't know we are working on it. You can use the back door in the meantime.

So they know there are issues - put the software out anyways - then we upgrade not to a beta or and an alpha version, but the released version and we are SOL. Nice!

[ckc.mike]

Well I just put in a request. Turned in the central file, the entire folder of journals. After a morning of emails with them trying to recreate the crashes they were finally able too.

Then GET THIS - THE ISSUES ARE KNOW AND THEY ARE WORKING ON A SOLUTION. I love it. I am going to try that with a client.

Client: Yeah the grand entrance to my building you promised is missing.

Architect: Yeah that is a known issue we are working on it

Client: So when will I be able to use it

Architect: We don't know we are working on it. You can use the back door in the meantime.

So they know there are issues - put the software out anyways - then we upgrade not to a beta or and an alpha version, but the released version and we are SOL. Nice!

That is a good example. I like that.

[RonGeyer]

FYI
My install of Revit 2009 is running slower that 2008 on the same machine. The delays are acceptable but I guess I expected 2009 to be faster not slower.
No crashes yet and no graphic anomalies yet.
Here are my system stats:

Revit Build 20080321_1900
OS: Vista Ultimate 64 bit
Avg. Revit File Size: 10.5 megabites
Revit running on OpenGL H/A
Processor: Intel Pentium(R) Duel CPU 2.66 Ghz
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GTS Driver Vs. 7.15.11.6371
NVIDIA Control Panel: All Settings on Defaults (Software Controled)
2gb RAM.

[Wes Macaulay]

So they know there are issues - put the software out anyways - then we upgrade not to a beta or and an alpha version, but the released version and we are SOL. Nice!
There were known issues in the beta, but only after the general public starts putting the software through its paces do you see what the true problems are. Many release cycles have this kind of thing happen to them. OTOH their have been some positively dozy releases where the software just installed and worked and there were few serious bugs to deal with.

[patricks]

I think as the software development progresses and gets more complex, the errors and glitches are just more likely to happen.

[aaronrumple]

I think as the software development progresses and gets more complex, the errors and glitches are just more likely to happen.

...it doesn't have to be that way. When I visited The Factory pre-Autodesk, I was amazed by the quality control system Revit had in place. Errors and bugs were found and revit was tested on real world projects on an HOURLY basis. The journal files were a big part of this automation. Each hour the new build of Revit went into a closet of servers and ran journal files on 40 computers for an hour. They got 40 hours worth of testing each hour. This came back as a report and a team went to work on fixing the errors.

To back that all up was a room full of architects - not programers - that did real drawings all day long for real world testing.

Every software should have such a system in place.

I don't know if this sort of program has continued under adsk.

[tamas]

Aaron,

I can assure you the automated testing farm is still our main tool to stay on top of quality issues. It now has 100+ machines and our whole testing suite contains several thousands of journals. Our QA team also has many architects and engineers. The programming team did not sit idle for the last 6 years and now our products are a lot more complex to test.

We strive for producing quality software and these early reports do sound somewhat discouraging. One of the hardest things to test for is hardware incompatibilities. We are trying hard to reproduce the recently reported display performance problems, but so far our results do not show the severe slowdown that some users complain about.

Tamas

[dbaldacchino]

Thanks for sharing that with the rest of us. It's kinda cool to learn how testing occurs. I have gotten frustrated due to crashing in the past but realized it was a display issue, which once resolved, made Revit extremely stable. I am truly amazed at how stable it actually is compared to Autocad, considering how much more it does.

[aaronrumple]

I am truly amazed at how stable it actually is compared to Autocad, considering how much more it does.

Indeed. A new user in the office came over and said "Revit crashed..." I just looked at him and said, "Revit doesn't crash." Turns out he opened a backup of a backup file (Project.0001.0002.rvt) and couldnt save as Revit was tring to save over a back he already had open....

Rare that I get to see a new one in Revit like that.

[patricks]

haha wow, that's one way to really confuse the program. :p

"I have to make a backup of this file... wait! There's already a file open with that name! whaddooido, whaddooido, whaddooido, ahhhh I give up" *brrraaaappp* <crash> :lol:

[cipa11]

yeah, i think that is about time to rewrite the interface - to change it at all - not just to ad more and more on it. Revit intertface was acceptable, but never good or great even that the engine is GREAT.
Please see other toughts:
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=78803&page=6

[captainbunsaver]

I am having difficulty with most of my older projects, but not all. Most of my older projects get to the dreaded "67%" mark and lock up.
I have the latest video driver (an old ATI FireGL 3100), have tried OpenGL on and off, and tried a few very small projects began in 08 and opened in 09. Veeery slow, but they eventually opened.
I have no further suspects as to why some of the older, larger projects won't open.

No, no SR as it won't let me connect, so I guess I won't be using 09 for real work until the disks get here.

Any ideas?

TC

[tamas]

The "dreaded "67%" mark and lock up" may be just a really slow regeneration due to the upgrade. Did you see it run out of memory, or just decided to not wait any longer?

Tamas

[captainbunsaver]

The program was (many times) locked up. I even went to other programs and worked for a while, came back to R09 and it was still at 67%. So, I did the CAD thing (you know, Control-Alt-Delete) to get to Task Mgr, and sure enough, it was "not responding".
Disappointing too, I was going to use the new renderer to kick out a quick, good looking render, but had to go back to AR in Revit 08 (ugh).

TC

[tamas]

The program was (many times) locked up. I even went to other programs and worked for a while, came back to R09 and it was still at 67%. So, I did the CAD thing (you know, Control-Alt-Delete) to get to Task Mgr, and sure enough, it was "not responding".


So if I read you correctly, you killed it before it could finish its upgrade. I am not sure if the "not responding" status in the Task Mgr is indication of any real problem.

Depending on the file complexity you are upgrading, it may take several minutes to hours to go through the regeneration process.

Please try to send one of your files to Revit support so we can analyze if anything was wrong there.

Tamas

[twiceroadsfool]

FWIW, Task Manager reports programs as not responding all the time.... when theyre busy. At least, here it does...

If i start a rendering, and go in the task manage while its rendering, itll report revit as not responding. Does it on my home system too...

[narlee]

Just got the CD's. I see, from the various forum threads, that, as usual, Revit's first version of the yearly update is a mess. Too bad.

[captainbunsaver]

Okay, opened ONLY Revit 2009, opened the same file again, and waited.

35 minutes later, my 45M file opens! Is this what I will be looking forward to with every project?

TC

[tamas]

Okay, opened ONLY Revit 2009, opened the same file again, and waited.

35 minutes later, my 45M file opens! Is this what I will be looking forward to with every project?

TC

:-) Unfortunately this time this could not be avoided. We changed some internals and they have to be recomputed during upgrade.

A 45MB file does not seem to be that large. I have 100+ MB files that open in 5-10 minutes including the upgrade. In fact, we were looking for examples where the progress bar gets stuck. Yours looks like a prime example and it is not even that huge.

So would you be willing to send it to our support, so we can check how to improve the progress reporting? (I am pretty sure we can not speed it up though ;-( )


Thanks,

Tamas

[tamas]

Just a side note on the upgrade performance:

The time it takes to upgrade from r2008 to r2009 is close to the time it would take to fully regenerate the whole model from scratch. That is as if we took all your parameters and recalculated every single dependent data instead of loading a precomputed value from last time.

The changes we made to the internals allows us to be more efficient in interactive sessions. (E.g. you should be able to delete or move a window on a large model much faster in r2009 than before.)

So please be patient during the upgrade.

Thanks,

Tamas

PS: Of course I can not guarantee that everything will be noticably faster, but I feel the changes were for the better overall.

[patricks]

I updated a nearly 40MB file from 2008 to 2009 in less than 5 minutes. I don't know what ya'll's problem could be.

[dbaldacchino]

Large models can take some time. I'm upgrading a 190MB model right now as I'm curious to see if I can notice improvement when moving elements like Tamas suggested, and it's already been going for about an hour.

[patricks]

dang... I would say if you've got a large model that needs to be upgraded, if you don't think there will be any messages that need user input, then let it just run overnight.

Dang, who would've thought that you'd need to do a rendering practice (letting it run overnight) for a file upgrade. :shock:

[dbaldacchino]

I know, quite lengthy. Now that it's upgraded, I can see huge problems with regeneration. I open this project in 2008, open a plan view and pan around and almost instantly, it regenerates. In 2009, it's taking 5 to 6 seconds. There's no way we can work this way. I'll have to do further testing to see if I can eliminate this lag; maybe disable OpenGL or try a few other things. This is the largest project we have and in 2009 I even removed the links so I don't have to upgrade more files and it still took forever to regenerate the plan. Not good :(

[tamas]

I know, quite lengthy. Now that it's upgraded, I can see huge problems with regeneration. I open this project in 2008, open a plan view and pan around and almost instantly, it regenerates. In 2009, it's taking 5 to 6 seconds. There's no way we can work this way. I'll have to do further testing to see if I can eliminate this lag; maybe disable OpenGL or try a few other things. This is the largest project we have and in 2009 I even removed the links so I don't have to upgrade more files and it still took forever to regenerate the plan. Not good :(

Sorry to hear that. Actually, what you are noticing is the "other" kind of regeneration. That is the model does not change, just the view. I was talking about model changes. Apparently we do have some open issue with r2009 in the view update speed.

Do you happen to have many roofs/slabs with edited points? (The new to r2008 tool that allows you to make creases to roofs/slabs.) If yes, could you try to cut-paste them to same place and see if performance of views change?

Let us know what you found.

Tamas

[dbaldacchino]

Ok, the previous test was done after upgrading, saving and re-opening the file. Now that I shut the machine down and later restarted, I decided to load the project in each version so I can compare them side by side, beause if the difference is small it's hard to "remember" whether one is really slower than the other. The project is about 188MB (CD phase, almost finished). This is the largest building and file we have so far.

The regeneration speed has gotten better after the restart and is not as bad as I observed before. However it is noticeably slower. But here's the peculiar observation I made: if I pan with the steering wheel tool, it's almost as fast as 2008, but if I pan by holding down the middle scroll button (steering wheel not activated), it regenerates slower!! Why would it make a difference? I don't forsee a lot of users using the steering wheel to pan and zoom in/out. The scroll button is a lot more accessible and we're all used to it.

But it doesn't stop there. If I activate the steering wheel and pan with the middle button, once again it's almost as fast as 2008. Zooming with the scroll button is horrible...nothing seems to be happening and then BAM...it zooms in/out. In 2008 you can see what is going on when you zoom. Now once again in 2009, if you use the steering wheel to zoom, then it's as smooth as 2008. This is really puzzling.

Since seeing is believing, I'll attach a video to this post soon so you can see a comparison. For the record, I'm running the latest Beta, so it would be swell if someone could try this with a similarly sized project and see if you can report the same observations with the final release.

EDIT: Video posted. Because the frame rate is low, you might not be able to appreciate the zoom test as much, but you can get the idea.

[dbaldacchino]

I continued testing further with the same project file and there's some great good news...in 3D views, 2009 regenerates considerably faster in shaded views, both with and without shadows. I tried panning with and without the steering wheel, and I cannot notice any difference like I could in a plan view. The 3D view in 2008 (no shadows) was slower and you could see the status bar regenerating, the percentages showing up. In 2009, nothing showed up in the status bar and the view regenerated much quicker. With shadows on, both version's status bar showed the percentages climbing, but in 2009, regeneration was 1 to 2 seconds faster (about 10 seconds for this particular project).

So really the regeneration problems seem to be tied to orthogonal views without using the steering wheel, mainly in plan viewes. It's difficult to be certain whether this applies to sections or elevation views since there's so much less geometry to regenerate compared to a plan (at least for a "pancake" building).

As to what Tamas said about 2009 being different and supposedly faster than 2008 in large projects when adding/deleting elements, I could not observe any difference. Same thing applies to when nudging a wall. It still took a while for it to happen (we're ALWAYS going to say it's too slow in this regard haha). Also, this project has no shape edited roofs. I wonder if this speed enhancement applies to upgraded projects or perhaps just projects started in 2009? We might never know :)

[rdaniel]

Unfortunately, this is what I undoubtedly expect to happen to Revit. It seems like Autodesk specializes in acquiring successful software packages and convoluting them. Getting ready for the bugs......


I think as the software development progresses and gets more complex, the errors and glitches are just more likely to happen.

[Scott D Davis]

It seems like Autodesk specializes in acquiring successful software packages and convoluting them.

The development team of Revit is generally the same since before the aquisition, so making blanket statements about "Autodesk" doing anything to Revit are really off base.

[narlee]

The Revit development team is awesome. I think, tho, that this stuff is bleeding edge and the variables enormous, be they the millions of lines of code, the OS's, the drivers, the hardware.

So that, even after alpha & beta, there's some gamma in the first release that needs a bit more work. It seems (if my poor memory serves) to often have to do with memory leaks, upgrades, video cards; that sort of thing. I've never seen the development team not fix them pretty quickly, IMO. But, it's not a bad idea to use caution at first with the year's x.0 release.

Factory: don't take the bitching to heart - it's just means we love you. :)

[rdaniel]

The development team of Revit is generally the same since before the aquisition, so making blanket statements about "Autodesk" doing anything to Revit are really off base.

Well, I imagined that most of the development team would be the same, however, unless Autodesk takes a completely off-hands approach to managing its software acquisitions, then I also imagine that they heavily influence its future direction. Not trying to be outright negative here, anyway, and sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. Just trying to say that my expectations are set extremely high by a price tag that is nearly 10 times more than any other software package that we acquire - and those packages don't have the long list of glitches that come with both Revit and ACA, nor do they require subscriptions. I might have a higher tolerance for a relatively lower level of service and unstable software, if the price points were not set so high.

I'm sure the forum is littered with this discussion already, but the frustration still exists. If subscriptions are going to be offered (and are now required with Revit network liceses), then I expect the releases to be both valuable and virtually error free. Maybe my expectations are set too high?

[Wes Macaulay]

Randall, those $500 CAD applications (and I have no idea which ones you're talking about -- apps like ArchiCAD and Bentley Architecture which are somewhat comparably featured compared to Revit are as much or more than Revit) won't do what Revit does.

Revit's developers are ever going into uncharted territory as they tweak Revit's engine during development. With each new release comes a new version of the database, which invariably has improved performance and allowed larger and larger projects to be built using the software. Yeah, there bugs in new releases, but the developers work them out. So at this point, I don't know of any other program I'd tell you to use.

You do know that Gehry Technologies BIM app is several times the cost of Revit, right? Go kick some tires -- I think you'll see that Revit offers good value. And try to be less negative. You obviously need a rush shipment of some Canadian beer :beer:

[funkman]

A bit of info...

Open one file through the new shortcut window at revit start up - file crashes after a minute.
Same file open through windows explorer, all is fine.

This is repeated. Go figure.

[patricks]

A bit of info...

Open one file through the new shortcut window at revit start up - file crashes after a minute.
Same file open through windows explorer, all is fine.

This is repeated. Go figure.

Better send that file to support. I have had no problems opening files through both the startup window and the file browser.

I'd also like to report that Revit 2009 was completely stable this weekend on my home PC, which I built almost 2 years ago with a 3.2 GHz Pentium D dual-core processor, 2 GB RAM, and an nVIDIA QuadroFX 540 card.

The program was left running overnight Saturday night by accident, and so the same file was open continuously for over 36 hours with no issues at all.

[BillyGrey]

...I stand corrected, please disregard post, more later.

[rdaniel]

Thanks, Wes. To clarify, I'm not questioning the value of the applications. Not only are AutoCAD and Revit the industry standards, but they are overall good programs. I have very little experience with Bentley or ArchiCAD to compare them against, but in my 8 years of experience with ACAD, ACA, and Revit, I have been relatively happy.

My discontent is regarding the newly adopted business model. If Autodesk is going to sell me annual upgrades and support to go along with them, then I expect for those upgrades to be valuable and virtually hassle-free, and for the support to be both responsive and reliable. In other words, I expect to receive the products I am paying for. As it stands with the last few releases (referring to ACA, as this is my first upgrade in Revit), upgrading to new releases has not met these requirements. If the new features of each release are applicable to our firm's needs and are significant enough to bother with, I then have to create new deployments, update existing customized content, require personal customization for each user, and work through glitches and incompatibility with previous file versions (to name a few) - not what I expect for my money. As for Revit, I just deployed Revit Arch 2009 and the first file I tried to upgrade crashed the application requiring me to send to file off to Autodesk to modify so that it can be made usable.

Support requests are not handled in a timely fashion nor do they always result in resolution of the issues. My most recent request received the following basic response after 8 days: "Thanks. We are looking at it. If it is significant enough, we may try to fix it." What good is that and why does it take 8 days to deliver that response? If the support is going to be untimely and unhelpful, then give me the option to knock that off of my subscription costs and not pay for it. The majority of the time, I don't bother with issuing a support request, as I can usually receive a more reliable and quicker response from these forums - which is provided largely by volunteers, mind you, offering their knowledge free of charge (do, the application engineers get paid to post?). So, big thanks to all who post here!

It's not that I don't think the subscription model can't work, I just don't think it is. I would love to receive updates annually that are quick to install, significantly improved, and as much as possible, glitch free (and, if needed, responsive and reliable support to accompany it), I'm just not right now, although I am paying for it. My call is to better work the bugs out of each release and to improve support or don't sell users these services. The old upgrade as desired / needed model wasn't all that bad from a customer standpoint.

Anyway, this post is getting quite lengthy and it is ultimately directed at the business managers of Autodesk, as they are the ones who can actually do / not do something in response, but you asked, so there you go. FYI, I have had this conversation with my reseller, who hopefully has forwarded this information to Autodesk.

Btw, the other software companies that I was referring to were Google / At Last and Adobe. We use a number of different Adobe packages in house (Illustrator, Pshop, Dreamweaver, Flash) and SketchUp. While they may sell different applications, they offer similar services. As it currently stands, I've been much more satisfied with the level of service from these companies, and their business models. Their products work great from release to release, and I can choose or not choose to upgrade. And, as I mentioned the cost of each of these is about equal to the cost of an ACA or Revit subscription.

Wes, still feel free to send the beer....... :beer:

[sjsl]

I was in the beta cycle and brought two large projects into beta. No problems whatsoever in upgrading my files.

Just a thought, when you have upgaded files are any of you guys/ladies doing an audit first on opening? This helps find and correct potential problems.

[rdaniel]

Yes. Tried many approaches multiple times: Auditing in 08 before upgrading. Auditing in 08 before and 09 while upgrading. Auditing just in 09. Crash. Crash. Crash......

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Andre Baros]

We're happy with 2009, the only problems so far were definitely video driver related... since upgrading the video drivers solved the problem. A Dell Precision workstation with a Quadro FX 1500 had the Autodesk Cerified drivers for Max installed (77.18 ) and was upgraded to the latest as of today (162.65). With the old drivers it crashed randomly within 5 minutes of launching the program.

I agree that there are some rough edges on 2009, but considering the overall level of improvement, I'm not concerned. The ongoing video issues surprise me after so many releases but I wouldn't blame Autodesk for that. nVidia, ATI, OpenGL, DirectX oh my!

[Steve_Stafford]

...Yes. Tried many approaches multiple times...Out of curiosity how many "Review Warnings" exist in the project?

[rdaniel]

Out of curiosity how many "Review Warnings" exist in the project?

Many. Do you think removing these will help out?

As a general practice, do you periodically go through the review warnings and clean them up? Does deleting them do anything other than remove them from the list? Do you have to go through each one and reconcile the error? I'm completely unfamiliar with how these work.

Thanks.

[Andre Baros]

We succesfully upgraded two projects which were started in Revit 5.0 and have gone through every release and point release since. Both files are close to 300 MB. FWIW, one of them upgraded in about 10 min, the other took 45 min. All other projects upgraded in under 10 minutes.

[patricks]

Many. Do you think removing these will help out?

As a general practice, do you periodically go through the review warnings and clean them up? Does deleting them do anything other than remove them from the list? Do you have to go through each one and reconcile the error? I'm completely unfamiliar with how these work.

Thanks.

Resolving the errors usually involves changing or deleting objects.

However we usually have a few warnings that are unavoidable, like door types having the same type mark, since we group all doors like solid doors, full glass doors, etc. with the same type mark when we show our door type elevations.