Door and Window Schedule

[Jun Austria]

I have been "test driving" Revit version 9.

Its a practice in Brunei to show graphical representation of doors and windows in
"Doors and Window Schedule". Because of this, I cannot convinced my firm in to use Revit (oh yeah. "Doors and Window Schedule" is important to us if we are handling hundreds of doors. Our firm handle mostly goverment jobs)

I know theres a workaround (via Elevation marker). But its unacceptable. Only now I griped about this after seeing Archicad demonstrated to us and how it generates the window schedule.

Is there any improvement in RA2009 "Doors and Window Schedule"? I'm sold to Revit because of its power to manage drawing sheets. Because I believe, in my experienced. Properly organized or managed working drawings will lead to a smoother construction process.

[rmejia]

By graphical representation do you mean elevation ? Revit does this in the Legends. Create a new legend, and add a Legend Component. There you can add plan view or elevation views for doors and windows, the schedule would then be placed in the sheet. Not sure if that is to what you are referring to ?

[patricks]

I have been "test driving" Revit version 9.

Its a practice in Brunei to show graphical representation of doors and windows in
"Doors and Window Schedule". Because of this, I cannot convinced my firm in to use Revit (oh yeah. "Doors and Window Schedule" is important to us if we are handling hundreds of doors. Our firm handle mostly goverment jobs)

I know theres a workaround (via Elevation marker). But its unacceptable. Only now I griped about this after seeing Archicad demonstrated to us and how it generates the window schedule.

Is there any improvement in RA2009 "Doors and Window Schedule"? I'm sold to Revit because of its power to manage drawing sheets. Because I believe, in my experienced. Properly organized or managed working drawings will lead to a smoother construction process.

You mean 2009 right? Version 9 came out 2+ years ago. :mrgreen:

Have you looked at the Legend function of Revit? It will display graphical representations of your door and window types in elevation, which can then be dimensioned accordingly.

[greg.mcdowell]

Windows do this in Legend Views but not Curtain Walls. So, if you're using Curtain Walls instead of Windows then you're only choice is to use elevate them.

To help manage them I create a new parameter for Drawing Type and use Management for new plans created at a large scale (larger than anything else being used in the project) where I place elevation markers. The large scale of the plan keeps the elevation markers out of other views and the Management Drawing Type keeps them organized separately from the other working Views.

[Jun Austria]

Today I tried a demo version of RA2009. Again, my desired look for the Doors and Window Schedule are split in the "Project Browser".

1. Under "Schedule/Quantities"
2. Under "Legends"

My Door Schedule under "Schedule/Quantities" have a bidirectional relationship with my plans. But theres no birectional relationship between "Schedule/Quantities" and "Legends"

What I want to see if I deleted or change a door in the Schedule. The Legend view should follow.
In the Archicad demo. they just drop the window schedule in the project and the schedule got the "Picture" field where it shows the elevation view of the door.

I wish they will add a Field for "Door or Window" Elevation view in the Schedule Properties.
Or is there any other way close to this?

[patricks]

Well, if you change a particular window type (change the size or some other type dimension in the family), then your legend view of that window type will update itself also.

However just remember that legend components are only tied to one particular type of one family, and only to its type parameters. Unfortunately there are no instance parameters with legend components, although it does sort of make sense that there isn't.

[Jun Austria]

I know, changes is easy. Maybe for now I will bear with the limitation then rather be left behind by the BIM wagon.

[jeffh]

Currently there is no support for graphic elements in a schedule. Legend views as others have mentioned is the only way to do close to what you are describing.

The question to ask I guess is how import is having the graphic of the door and winodws in your schedule when compared to the coordinated documents and other features you like about Revit.

[Jun Austria]

Currently there is no support for graphic elements in a schedule. Legend views as others have mentioned is the only way to do close to what you are describing.

The question to ask I guess is how import(ant?) is having the graphic of the door and winodws in your schedule when compared to the coordinated documents and other features you like about Revit.

Drawings of Doors and Windows in the Schedule is a must here in this part of Asia (Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei are the countries I got involved with)

This drawings indicates not just the Height and Width but also any design on the panels. That will help the manufacturer speed up the process. This is the general practice here.

So this setup is as important as the rest of the features I lke in Revit.
Revit will not change the output look of our document. Only the process of doing it.

So I hope Autodesk is listening. If they want Revit to gain more follower in Asia. They should look closely into the professional practice.

[jeffh]

This drawings indicates not just the Height and Width but also any design on the panels. That will help the manufacturer speed up the process. This is the general practice here.

I have done this as well here in the US. I have typically done this in a seperate "type schedule". I have never included the graphic information into the door or window schedule itself. I understand this is a standard where you work but unfortunatly Revit is not able to do what you are looking to do. A legend view in Revit serves this purpose very well. If you try a legend view for this you might find it serves the same purpose as placing the graphic in the schedule itself.

See attached image for an example of a "Type Schedule" done using a legend view.

[rkitect]

I guess I'm confused as to why you have to have the graphics literally in the schedule. Here in the USA it is common practice to have the schedule refer to a "Panel Type" and "Frame Type" graphic usually located on the same sheet as the schedule(s). Are you saying that the graphics are literally sitting in the same row/column entity that the schedul information is on?

[rmejia]

From what I understood from his comments:


My Door Schedule under "Schedule/Quantities" have a bidirectional relationship with my plans. But theres no birectional relationship between "Schedule/Quantities" and "Legends"

What I want to see if I deleted or change a door in the Schedule. The Legend view should follow.


In my window schedules I have each window type illustrated in the legend, but in the project I am working now I have changed probably 2 windows or more to another type of window and have to manually correct the legend. If the legend would automatically somehow update like schedules it would be nice. To have "smart" legends with bidirectional relationships like the schedules. I have not seen this done before so I have no idea how it could be done, but I think it could be useful to automate schedules and help prevent human errors.

[jeffh]

If the legend would automatically somehow update like schedules it would be nice. To have "smart" legends with bidirectional relationships like the schedules.

This would be a nice feature to have. One less possibility for mistakes. Actually what the original post was asking for, "Graphics" in a schedule, is possible in AutoCAD Architecture. <ducking>

[DaveP]

I'm curious what your schedule looks like. Does each individual door have a graphic or do you group them somehow? if you have hundreds of doors, how can you get a graphic big enough to be useful?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your method is less valid than the way we do it in the US. I'm just curious. In fact, I think that's one of the cool things about this forum. We get to see how people are using Revit all over the world and sometimes we find out a better way to do things.

Imagine how hard that makes Jeff and the rest of the Factory's jobs!

[rjcrowther]

I imagine your door/window schedule is pretty much the same as the type we would typically use - graphical.

To clarify:
1. Each door or window is drawn in elevation (1:50 scale)
2. Each Door and window is dimensioned to the mullions and transoms and well as the opening being dimensioned
3. The finished floor level is shown.
4. The windows are drawn as placed in the wall so its sill and head usually get dimensioned as well.
5. The schedule text is listed in columns (rather than Revit's row format).
6. A job of any size has multiple A1 sheets of door/window schedules.
7. The opening type (awning, sliding,....) is graphically shown as well as stated in the column text.

If that is the case then if you can come out with a suitable solution then I am all ears. The legend method does work (just) but its a poor substitute. The only way I have got it work reasonably is to place the legend and the tabular schedule on the same sheet. (Same as mentioned previously)

For Dave.P....each type of door or window is drawn and below in a column will be listed the opening numbers that have this type of door or window. To maintain order the doors/windows are drawn, suitably spaced, in a line from left to right with information columns under each door/window. Part of the column info is a comments field where you would enter something like 'refer to drawings for door handing' so that covers left and right swinging doors meaning there is no need to draw another door type just because the same door opens in different directions.

When you get used to them, these schedules can become the place where you do some window design - getting proportions of mullions and transoms as you want them (personally I have always used elevations for this but I know some who utilize the schedule for tweaking windows and doors).

The main problem for me with the legend method is it is not half as clear as a well drawn graphical door/window schedule and there is not much job satisfaction in it (for me anyway).

The last thing is Revit out of the box seems to be quite Northern American in its drawing style and formats. It will take a while to customize it to make the drawings appear as they should for your country. Unfortuneately door/window schedules is one of those things I haven't found an answer to.

Thanks,
Rob

[Jun Austria]

I imagine your door/window schedule is pretty much the same as the type we would typically use - graphical.

To clarify:
1. Each door or window is drawn in elevation (1:50 scale)
2. Each Door and window is dimensioned to the mullions and transoms and well as the opening being dimensioned
3. The finished floor level is shown.
4. The windows are drawn as placed in the wall so its sill and head usually get dimensioned as well.
5. The schedule text is listed in columns (rather than Revit's row format).
6. A job of any size has multiple A1 sheets of door/window schedules.
7. The opening type (awning, sliding,....) is graphically shown as well as stated in the column text.

If that is the case then if you can come out with a suitable solution then I am all ears. The legend method does work (just) but its a poor substitute. The only way I have got it work reasonably is to place the legend and the tabular schedule on the same sheet. (Same as mentioned previously)

For Dave.P....each type of door or window is drawn and below in a column will be listed the opening numbers that have this type of door or window. To maintain order the doors/windows are drawn, suitably spaced, in a line from left to right with information columns under each door/window. Part of the column info is a comments field where you would enter something like 'refer to drawings for door handing' so that covers left and right swinging doors meaning there is no need to draw another door type just because the same door opens in different directions.

When you get used to them, these schedules can become the place where you do some window design - getting proportions of mullions and transoms as you want them (personally I have always used elevations for this but I know some who utilize the schedule for tweaking windows and doors).

The main problem for me with the legend method is it is not half as clear as a well drawn graphical door/window schedule and there is not much job satisfaction in it (for me anyway).

The last thing is Revit out of the box seems to be quite Northern American in its drawing style and formats. It will take a while to customize it to make the drawings appear as they should for your country. Unfortuneately door/window schedules is one of those things I haven't found an answer to.

Thanks,
Rob


Thanks Rob for a more clearer explanation. Like I said, I hope REVIT R&D guys will take note.

[snurresprett9]

This limitation is a big pain in the butt for us also!

[AUGI Strangelove]

Thanks- this has been quite helpful. I have made my first door elevation legend. One quick question: How do you override the dimension to place the text within the dimension string? Is this something that only RA2009 will do? I'm still working in 2008.

[Scott Womack]

The text overrides in Revit 2008 are very limited. We usually have to pull it to the side, and let a line indicate where it is from. We have also "cheated" and creates a dimension style, where the text size is 1/256 of an inch high, and a light gray color. Then we just place a piece of text over it. That is often the way we indicate "equals" since the tolerances for this to be automated are too small.

[AUGI Strangelove]

Hmmmm. Thanks. Is it better in 2009? This doesn't seem very elegant.

[jeffh]

Hmmmm. Thanks. Is it better in 2009? This doesn't seem very elegant.

Yes this is MUCH easier to do in Revit 2009. You can replace the dimension values with any text you like by clicking on the text in the dim line.

[Scott Womack]

Hmmmm. Thanks. Is it better in 2009? This doesn't seem very elegant.

No, 2009 is dramtically better, as long as you read the "Known Issues" paper on the DVD, so that you understand a couple of the "problems" with the newer overrides.

[AUGI Strangelove]

Many thanks to both of you. I'll wait for the day we debut 2009....

[JamesVan]

This would be a nice feature to have. One less possibility for mistakes. Actually what the original post was asking for, "Graphics" in a schedule, is possible in AutoCAD Architecture. <ducking>

So this shouldn't be a problem once Autodesk finally decides to kill ADT and infuse the programming horsepower into Revit, right?! :p

[AP23]

See attached image for an example of a "Type Schedule" done using a legend view.

How did you place the information of each door (Type, glass material ect.) on the sheet? The doors can't be tagged in a legend and making seperate schedules for each door is too cumbersome.

[jeffh]

How did you place the information of each door (Type, glass material ect.) on the sheet? The doors can't be tagged in a legend and making seperate schedules for each door is too cumbersome.

I guess I like doing things the hard way. I just used good old fashioned text. Placed the door in elevation as a legend object and then just wrote out the description below. Sure it is not parametrically linked or generated automatically in any way, but it beats the heck out of doing it with a pencil. ;)

So this way of doing the schedule is no more cumbersome than the options I had before. I woulld argure it is probably LESS cumbersome using a legend than the options I had before which would have been to have to draft out the door panel with lines and then use text. At least now the graphics for the door is generated automatically.

Would it be nice if everythihng could be done automatically? Of course it would. Will it ever be possible? Only time will tell. Maybe once it is all "automatic" we will not need Architects anymore?

[Calvn_Swing]

I do have to pick on legends a bit more. In a legend (As in all legends) that text for Type 1, Type 2, etc... is as dumb as dumb can get. If that door is actually a type 2 door, you can label it type 5, type 10, or type bob for that matter. We need tags to work in legends if they're calling out type parameters in the family. It's just absurd that I can't tag an "intelligent" object in a legend.

In terms of graphics in a schedule, I think it makes perfect sense. How much more useful would it be for a material takeoff to be able to display graphics of the surface patterns in projection, the cut patterns in section, or even better yet a 3D view showing both. Also, how about fields in schedules for graphic components like Cut or Surface Pattern?

[DaveP]

. Maybe once it is all "automatic" we will not need Architects anymore?

No, once everything is "automatic", we won't need drafters anymore.
We'll still need Architects. At least until the Matrix takes over.

[Jun Austria]

No, once everything is "automatic", we won't need drafters anymore.
We'll still need Architects. At least until the Matrix takes over.

This is already happening in a small scale projects. For economic reason. Architects here are doing a one man show.

[AP23]

......Architects here are doing a one man show.

This, until project managers take over.

[rjcrowther]

This is already happening in a small scale projects. For economic reason. Architects here are doing a one man show.

Or people don't like the architects fees so drafters are doing the architects work.