Training an ex-Microstation user

[powermarc]

Does anyone have any advice for training architectural staff that used to use Microstation? I have one user that I'm having trouble getting into the AutoCAD frame of mind. I don't know what he's thinking as I have never used Microstation myself, and it's really getting frustrating.

He keeps telling me things like "Well, I could do (some obscure function) in Microstation, can AutoCAD do that?" I then show him how to do the same thing, more or less, in AutoCAD. I really don't have time for this. He's been to AutoCAD training outside of work before, but it didn't seem to stick.

Does anyone know of any AutoCAD training that is directed towards Microstation users? I need to get this guy more productive soon.

Thanks for your help,

[Harold Pei Jr]

>_> whenever he mentions MS, get a ruler and smack his hands.
The easiest way is to have someone that knows both programs do the training and walk him through some things.
I've dabbled in MS for a while, and then started using AutoCAD. Was a bit of a stretch for me, but I learned how to use both programs. Recently we had someone who used only MS until they came to my company. And the thing is, he's learning how to use Civil 3D. If he wants to know how to do something, he'll ask me and I'll walk him through it. If I don't know, I'll do some research and get back to him. But, like me, he is trying, and I believe he'll be good at both progs.
It also sounds like he doesn't want to learn to use AutoCAD and wants to stick with MS.
You could always point him to AUGI if you don't have the time to walk him through his questions all the time. There are a lot of people on here that can help him.

[jaberwok]

Just shoot him now and save everyone a lot of grief.

j/k

These (http://www.corporatemontage.com.au/training/courses/MSTN2AutoCAD.htm) people may be able to help.

[rstiles]

An old co worker of mine had a book he used. I am not a 100% on this title but it was Microstation for the Autocad user or Autocad for the Microstation user. What i liked about the book is there was a section that listed the commands in Autocad and then the equivalent in Microstation and a description about how to use the command. I will search a bit on the internet if i come up with the actual title i will post it.

[kingjosiah]

I will search a bit on the internet if i come up with the actual title i will post it.

The book you were referring to is called "MicroStation for AutoCAD Users" by Frank Grabowski. I have a copy of that book that I am no longer using -- cover shipping and i can send it to you Marc.

Also, it has been a few years but I helped a large office of uStn users migrate to AutoCAD; there was a lot of grumbling from the users not being able to do certain commands. More often than not, it was due to inexperience in acad. Since microstation is/(was?) predominately button-centric, I made a tent card for the users which outlined equivalent buttons/commands between the two programs. If i can dig that up, i'll be glad to email it to you. This was back in the days of MSSE and MS/J, so i don't know if much has changed since. Some of the big differences are in referencing/self-referencing vs xrefs. If your user has specific questions about how to do something, send me a list of questions and i'll see if i can help.

Other than that, maybe the best thing to do is send him/her to an autocad fundamentals class for a few days to get the basics.

- Jon

p.s. noticed that you said they already took an autocad class and that hasn't helped. We had some users *very* resitant to the software switch, and some of these honestly took a month(s) to get up to speed. It wasn't until the attitudes softened and the endless comparisons about what autocad could 'not' do, was there any real progress.

[jaberwok]

The book you were referring to is called "MicroStation for AutoCAD Users" by Frank Grabowski.

Judging by the title isn't that the opposite of what is wanted?

[kingjosiah]

Yep. Guess there wasn't/isn't much need for an Autocad for Microstation Users book so no one wrote one.

FWIW i didn't get much out of the book myself....you learn much more much faster just by sitting down and working with the software....the books can only take you so far...

[mmccarter]

As an AutoCAD user who has to use Microstation occaisionally for either 3D work or to translate AutoCAD data to Microstation I can understand this guys frustations.

Although he has it easy, the general feeling is that it is a lot easier to go from Microstation to AutoCAD as opposed to vice versa. My opinion is that for simple common fast drafting you can't beat AutoCAD when used properly. I feel very constrained by having to use icons in ustn, at least AutoCAD has icons for ustn users to use in the same manner they are used to. Me as a keyboardist in CAD I struggle in ustn.

Microstation undoubtadley has some excellent features which AutoCAD does not have, but also has some confusing aspects as mentioned earlier with references (how can a "base" or global origin be different in 2 different drawings yet it is still possible to reference one into the other in the correct relative place?!)

Once you venture into the world of 3D Microstation is definately a more capable bit of softwate in my opinion when dealing with complex geometry and this is where the two programs start to differ more and more.

Your guy has to just accept that the two are different and both have pros and cons, after all, if they were much more closely related what would be the point in having them both?
To be honest, if he doesn't have the capability to learn AutoCAD then is he actually going to ever become a good technician?
The best CAD operators think in a certain way to solve problems and come up with solutions using the tools available what ever they may be. If he can not transfer his skills then unless you have a requirement for a ustn user I would consider cutting him loose unless he bucks his ideas up. You have shown commitment to him by sending him on training and by the sounds of it also given him ample opportunity to step up and he has not delivered.


Appologies for the rant, but it's an all too common problem here which annoys some of the superb operators I am fortunate enough to work with.

[bruno.vankogelenberg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't both Mst and Autocad more a way to do things than a goal itself? I mean you don't have an Autocad team just to have it. Your team creates something, so I think it's quite possible to have a marveillous designer who is not good in Autocad or Mst. Mst or Autocad is in the company I work for "customer related" : we have clients who demand DWG's and others who demand DGN's.
Mst to Autocad, it's another way of thinking. Most of the Mst commands can, if they don't exist, be made through Autolisp. I think of e.g. rotate with copy), you can copy, you can rotate, but you'll be surprised to find out how much time you gain if you can copy something and rotate it in the same action. I've created in lisp the command CRT, and with four lines of lispcode, it combines both actions.

[jaberwok]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't both Mst and Autocad more a way to do things than a goal itself? I mean you don't have an Autocad team just to have it. Your team creates something, so I think it's quite possible to have a marveillous designer who is not good in Autocad or Mst. Mst or Autocad is in the company I work for "customer related" : we have clients who demand DWG's and others who demand DGN's.
Mst to Autocad, it's another way of thinking. Most of the Mst commands can, if they don't exist, be made through Autolisp. I think of e.g. rotate with copy), you can copy, you can rotate, but you'll be surprised to find out how much time you gain if you can copy something and rotate it in the same action. I've created in lisp the command CRT, and with four lines of lispcode, it combines both actions.

You're right, of course.
In many respects AutoCAD v MicroStation is like Ford v General Motors - but - Ford and G.M. controls generally work the same way to do the same things. Imagine if Ford cars had pedals in the opposite order and a reversed gear selector.
How about a steering wheel that you turn clockwise to go left?

As for your example Copy & Rotate, it's one of the first things most (IME) learner lisp programmers create because it was such an obvious omission (but see MOCORO in Express Tools).

[andrew.handley782323]

Powermarc

Imagine you have solved this little problem now but if not...

There is a great page in the Microstation help files that lists as a table a direct comparison of Commands. For example;

AutoCAD ‘OFFSET’
Is equal to
Microstation ‘MOVE PARALLEL OFFSET’

I have found this a helpful devise assisting users in going in either direction and if they are old enough to have used the command line in AutoCAD or Microstation Key-in the epiphany arrives sooner.

You can find the document at http://docs.bentley.com/pl/MicroStation/ustnhelp1075.html

I have the opposite problem, AutoCAD users crossing to Microstation which takes a while but they get the subtle differences and generally come to love it (sorry, I know, wash my mouth out with soap!!).

However take a Microstation user and give them AutoCAD and the world is coming to an end and the complaints are incessant.
Most competent Microstation users are quite passionate about the program and this I have found needs to be harnessed rather than fighting.
Show them things that AutoCAD does well like Tool Palettes and viewports. But equally except that Microstation does sometings better.

[nwilson]

While not addressing the topic of the OP I would like to comment on the statements about ACAD vs. Microstation being simply a preference that leads to a common end. I can relate to the frustrations of a user having to work in a less efficient environment.

I have been using Autocad and Land Desktop since 1998. In August of 2007 I started learning Bentley's Power Civil product in an effort to find a bettor tool for our design needs. Being a relative newcomer to Microstation I can't say that I am an authority on the pros and cons of both platforms, but I can definitely say that the differences are not merely a matter of preference. Just in regards to performance there is a real factor of efficiency when comparing the 2 products. Being in the Civil field I have to deal with large datasets such as aerial imagery, parcels, digital elevation models, LIDAR, etc. I have both Civil 3D 2009 and Bentley Power Civil which is built on Bentley Power Draft, a scaled down version of Microstation. When preparing basemaps for preliminary designs I have to integrate these large datasets, Microstation is far better suited for handling the data. I've wasted many hours trying to get the data into a Civil3D drawing only to have it crash and lose my work, not to mention the terribly long processing times when it does work. Microstation on the other hand is incredibly capable of handling the data and performance is superior by orders of magnitude. If it weren't for Microstation I would be hard pressed to get the maps built, much less to function efficiently, in Civil 3D. Autocad itself is in part to blame for the performance issues. It has become a bloated resource hog over the years and needs an overhaul. The resource overhead from Civil 3D makes it even slower and it is unstable due to excessive processing requirements and memory related crashes.

There are many other reasons I could list here that I believe would make a strong argument in favor of Microstation as being a superior CAD platform and not just a matter of personal preference. If it weren't for the fact that Autocad has such a large user base (along with some outdated prejudices), I think Microstation would be the platform of choice in several disciplines.

[Norton_cad]

He sounds like type two student to me...
http://forums.augi.com/showpost.php?p=923480&postcount=29